What's missing?

Sep 27, 2017 1:21 pm
I wonder how much in the minority I am in here with this thought: how can my TTRPG be more like a video game? I understand they're different and need to be, but there's a certain satisfaction that I'm not getting from my games that video games give me and vice versa. In video games, I'm alone. Most multiplayer games are aimed at styles of play that I don't prefer, yet RPGs still leave me wanting something more. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Perhaps there's a similar conversation here that I've missed. If that's the case, please point me in the right direction.
Because of my life and schedule, I can't play live games - online or IRL - so I'm left with pbp games. I love them, but I invariably find myself comparing them to video games. I think perhaps it's mechanics. I've heard before that 4e D&D was comparable to video games, but I just can't make myself play that.
Perhaps it's the level of power in video games. I can launch attacks forever or with a relatively small amount of downtime in video games, but TTRPGs (ex: vancian magic) make me feel nearly powerless. This isn't to say I want to rewrite magic systems or what have you, and I'm beginning to feel foolish for even making this post, but I wonder if I'm alone and if anyone has possible advice.
Thank you.
Sep 27, 2017 1:43 pm
If ttrpgs = vancian magic to you, that would be a good place to start looking at the problem.

Play a game that isn't a d20?
Sep 27, 2017 2:21 pm
I would definitely look into other TTRPG systems. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of them out there. There has to be at least one that hits just the spot you are looking for :)
Sep 27, 2017 2:38 pm
Thank you for the advice. I used vancian magic as an example not the entire issue, but it is a not-so-small issue.
And yes, I do not like d20. I have found the Fantasy Age 3d6 to be much more along my preferences.
Sep 27, 2017 4:09 pm
I am working on my own video-game flavored TTRPG. My best advice would be to ask yourself what sort of video game mechanic do you want to emulate and how better to convert this into a table top environment. Many video games, especially of the 8-bits and 16-bits RPG genre, use simplified tabletop mechanics, so often the solution is to use simple game mechanics.
I suggest also looking what others have tried in the video game emulation genre, like the 3rd edition of the FFRPG, The AFF project, siege perilous, and the dragon warrior III RPG for example.
Sep 27, 2017 10:53 pm
unique_exemplar says:
I've heard before that 4e D&D was comparable to video games, but I just can't make myself play that.
Any particular reason? 4E is the most game like of all the versions of D&D in that every power is codified, balanced to level and entirely geared for the tactical combat miniatures wargame side of the hobby. Constant reusable powers and abilities, strict battlefield roles and abilities, room for charop but not so much that below optimal builds are unplayable. Sounds like it or 13th Age are what you're looking for. Or maybe Descent. Maybe a board game is what you're after? :)

Or maybe come at it from the opposite angle; don't look at it as always needing power. A while back three schools of thought came out for this hobby following a heated debate; Gaming, Narrativist or Simulationist. It sounds like you're approaching it from a point of view that you'd like to see the world simulated entirely in your game, but are frustrated that the system won't treat you front and center (either you in the party sense, or you in the singular sense... maybe there's another problem there).

Maybe you need to look at what you want out of a game, and find a style that suits you. Crunch over fluff, which game makes you feel like you're fulfilling the fantasy you want? Fantasy alone has a few dozen games that offer different flavours of experience. Sometimes the grim and gritty style of gaming can make you feel like you're overcoming or barely surviving insurmountable odds (Torchbearer, WFRPG), sometimes it's about political narrative with your party and that's the game (Burning Wheel), sometimes it's about slogging through a deathtrap of a setting and trying to come out on top by displaying mastery over a thousand different subsystem (Pathfinder), or telling a story as part of the adventure where your character expression of overcoming the challenge is most important (Dungeon World, FATE) and sometimes it's about playing it like a board game with a roleplaying game stapled onto the side (4E)

Experiment. Play. Approach everything with an open mind. Have fun with it!
Sep 28, 2017 1:12 am
Thank you all for the feedback. It's really got me thinking about what I couldn't put my finger on. I think there's something to the thought of looking to 8 & 16-bit games. Less is more and all that. But also, I wonder if it's the feel of video games that I'm looking for. Playing in a fantasy D&D setting isn't enough to get the final fantasy vibe. I think that's what I'm looking for. I want to play in those video game worlds with stories of my own. I tried this with the WoW RPG, but it was just a reskinned D&D 3.5e. I need more than just fluff to put me in the game world.
Sep 28, 2017 1:41 am
If you're not afraid of doing some work, you could rework Earthdawn a bit (it doesn't really matter which edition you pick) to make it into a Final Fantasy-esque game engine.
Sep 28, 2017 1:55 am
From reading through this thread, what I'm understanding is that the system itself is less the issue than the setting. Have you tried a science-fantasy setting/rpg? The stuff that came to mind when I read this was:

Anima (out of print though)
Starfinder
Numenera
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition: Spelljammer. (Spelljammer is a setting and has been converted to different editions, but I don't know if an official version existsfor any other edition other than ADD 2nd. As an aside, I think an indie publisher created a Pathfinder variant of Spelljammer.)
Shadowrun (this is reaching a bit, but it does combine science fiction and fantasy. Magic and Technology exist side by side.)
Beyond the Wall (an rpg inspired by fantasy books like those of Ursula K. Le Guin)

I don't know if this helps but you asked an interesting question.
Sep 28, 2017 3:51 am
I wonder if part of the issue is that in a video game you are the unabashed and unchallenged hero of the story. The entire world literally revolves around you -- because that's the way it's built. In a TTRPG it may or may not be the case - and typically if you're a first level / new character it pretty much will NOT be the case.

One thing you could try -- rather than trying out different systems -- is either running or participating in a higher-level game. Numenera with sixth tier characters is a pretty different story than with first tier. So too is D&D with a high level character. In those games it may be more appropriate for you and your colleagues to be the axis upon which the world turns.

Some other folks may enjoy the journey from low power to high power -- feeling like they've built that. Others may only really enjoy lower-power play where the outcomes are less grandiose and feel a little more mundane and relatable. Others yet may really appreciate playing a game where they wield something truly special. Or where they level up quickly enough that they go from 'new' to 'powerful' in a fast enough cadence that the world is their oyster.

Just a thought. Most of the games I see here are lower level games. In a video game, you're rarely stuck at 'first level' with basic abilities for long.
Sep 28, 2017 4:57 am
In my experience, it has less to do with the mechanics of a game and more to do with the Game Master. You can have a GM that manages the RPG like a video game or like a story, and there are a wide range of styles in-between.

Video games tend to be linear. Even "sandbox" games generally guide the players towards a specific goal, either by limiting access to certain areas or implementing set difficulties that force a player to achieve a certain level or skill before they can tackle that objective. Video games also tend to have a singular end-game and most often have a single method to "win," and related to that some place emphasis on good endings versus bad endings or 100% completion.

Most GMs I know are proponents of open-ended styles, where they adapt to what the players want to do and set up challenges appropriate to the current situation. GMs often improvise things on the fly when a player goes "off the rails" so to speak, and when done right the players don't even notice.

I think there are RPGs and modules that can simulate a video game-style of play, but it's really up to the GM to set the scenario and present the material to the player to try and capture the same feeling. You might enjoy a solo run through a TTRPG as it lends itself to the single-player mentality, if you find a GM willing to give that a try.

However, do understand that it will take a lot of work on the GM's part. And unlike a video game where it's implicitly accepted that a person can't fly above an arbitrary ceiling because of the 0s and 1s, it's habitually harder for a player to do the same when another person is telling you that your character can't do The Thing.
Sep 28, 2017 12:26 pm
Wow, again with the great feedback. Thank you all for the suggestions and different thoughts and perspectives.
Phil_Ozzy_Fer says:
From reading through this thread, what I'm understanding is that the system itself is less the issue than the setting. Have you tried a science-fantasy setting/rpg?
I generally lean toward fantasy more than any other genre, but I have played/run Numenera. That was a blast. What's kept me from playing/running that more is that while the setting is really cool, it's so alien to what I know that I'm not sure how to play/run it.
kalajel says:
If you're not afraid of doing some work, you could rework Earthdawn a bit (it doesn't really matter which edition you pick) to make it into a Final Fantasy-esque game engine.
Thanks for the suggestion. Also, thanks for that resource list you've been working on. I found the Earthdawn SRD link and right above that is 8-bit Dungeon. That looks incredibly fun for a one shot. I loved 8-bit Theater.
falryx says:
One thing you could try -- rather than trying out different systems -- is either running or participating in a higher-level game. Numenera with sixth tier characters is a pretty different story than with first tier. So too is D&D with a high level character. In those games it may be more appropriate for you and your colleagues to be the axis upon which the world turns.
You're right. There is a delicate balance to be found here. I've had several poor experiences with high-level games. Either there are too many options that I never consider and get analysis paralysis or there's absolutely no challenge and the PCs wipe the floor with a demon lord. It happened. It wasn't fun. I've been aiming my current group toward mid-level to help find this happy medium.
CancerMan says:
In my experience, it has less to do with the mechanics of a game and more to do with the Game Master. You can have a GM that manages the RPG like a video game or like a story, and there are a wide range of styles in-between.

Video games tend to be linear. Even "sandbox" games generally guide the players towards a specific goal, either by limiting access to certain areas or implementing set difficulties that force a player to achieve a certain level or skill before they can tackle that objective. Video games also tend to have a singular end-game and most often have a single method to "win," and related to that some place emphasis on good endings versus bad endings or 100% completion.

Most GMs I know are proponents of open-ended styles, where they adapt to what the players want to do and set up challenges appropriate to the current situation. GMs often improvise things on the fly when a player goes "off the rails" so to speak, and when done right the players don't even notice.

I think there are RPGs and modules that can simulate a video game-style of play, but it's really up to the GM to set the scenario and present the material to the player to try and capture the same feeling. You might enjoy a solo run through a TTRPG as it lends itself to the single-player mentality, if you find a GM willing to give that a try.

However, do understand that it will take a lot of work on the GM's part. And unlike a video game where it's implicitly accepted that a person can't fly above an arbitrary ceiling because of the 0s and 1s, it's habitually harder for a player to do the same when another person is telling you that your character can't do The Thing.
Excellent point. The player's fun is entirely dependant upon the GM's style. I feel the right system with the right setting is the answer for me, but I'm willing to try just about anything at this point. The single-player TTRPG is gaining popularity in my mind. I listen to the Party of One podcast so I know it's possible. As for restrictions of video games translating to TTRPGs, I don't see this as a problem unless the GM railroads. Lead me with hooks and improvise when needed.
Sep 28, 2017 2:55 pm
IIRC 8-bit Dungeon does not require a game master since enemies obey a very strict set of behaviors. Another very similar game, but which had not video game emulation in mind, is Dungeon Plungin'. Although this one is a little bit closer to a board game than an RPG... Still, there might be some ideas to gain from that game as well.
Sep 28, 2017 3:57 pm
DM not required? That's interesting. Thanks for the info. 👍
Sep 28, 2017 7:12 pm
I know this is going to be a tangent of the conversation, but it's loosely related. If anyone has seen Red vs Blue, the Project Freelancer story arc makes me want to play a game like that. Are there games out there that would do this? Military missions, power armor, Etc?

Len

Sep 28, 2017 11:05 pm
Maybe this guy's game would be a good mix for you. Maybe not power armor and giant robots, but many of the themes of the game he is wanting to run sound up your alley.
Sep 29, 2017 4:47 am
D6 Pool is a generic modern game, but it is sort of made for strategic/military-type games. Other than that, Hmm, Covert Ops? Spycraft? Grunt RPG? Twilight 20XX? Mashed? Battle Force Bravo? Some of those games are free, some are cheap, some are not...
Sep 29, 2017 12:19 pm
Wow there are a lot of systems out there for this. I've not heard of most of those. I was beginning to think I was looking at this the wrong way. With the right character, I suppose the Project Freelancer feel could be achieved with a bunch of different systems. Maybe I need to play the highly agile types and have a GM run covert ops adventure. Thanks! :)
lenpelletier says:
Maybe this guy's game would be a good mix for you. Maybe not power armor and giant robots, but many of the themes of the game he is wanting to run sound up your alley.
I checked this out before starting this post. I'd be willing to check out the game, but what he wants to run just isn't possible for me. I come here because I can't do live games.
Sep 29, 2017 1:07 pm
unique_exemplar says:
Wow there are a lot of systems out there for this. I've not heard of most of those. I was beginning to think I was looking at this the wrong way. With the right character, I suppose the Project Freelancer feel could be achieved with a bunch of different systems. Maybe I need to play the highly agile types and have a GM run covert ops adventure. Thanks! :)
Yeah, and those were just the ones off the top of my head...
Sep 29, 2017 1:54 pm
You could also do power armor in a Cypher System game.
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