Player knowledge and character knowledge

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Oct 26, 2019 11:29 pm
They are two different things.

I'm not calling anyone in particular out, but I have observed on other boards that sometimes GMs will restrict players to those who have not read or played the adventure in question. Well, that leaves me out. As a GM of 40 years, there isn't much that I haven't read/played. But, I can separate player knowledge and character knowledge. I have no problem playing dumb. So please, don't overlook the potential that I might be able to add to a game just because I've read the adventure, and I would assume that most players can separate what the character knows from what the player knows.
Oct 27, 2019 9:31 am
I think one of the reasons the GMs put such restrictions is to attract new players and introduce them to that module without making too many changes. GM's job is make sure that everyone have fun playing the game and, while I hope that majority of people can withhold meta gaming on their part, the players that have played/read through the adventure might feel bored and try to rush things a bit or be less active trying to let others figure things out.

Additionaly, GMs might want to ensure that there will be no spoilers IC and OOC and I imagine they would want to see an honest reaction from players about their favorite adventure. For example, you can watch a movie with your friends, who'd seen it already, and have fun while doing so, but it is different when you inroduce a movie to someone who haven't seen it yet. You know, like, when you watch Star Wars with someone who haven't seen it, you will be more interested to observe their reaction and then you can have a discussion about it that you cannot have with someone who already seen it as much as you did.
Oct 27, 2019 1:54 pm
There is certainly a different dynamic with those who have gone through a module before and those who have not. Think about video game play throughs. The first play through is bright and shiny just riding the story, but later playthroughs are focused on changing/optimizing/messing-with things. It is a very different dynamic emotionally.
It takes a particular kind of player to be able to play with those who have not played through a story before. And I would advise one story-veteran per story-newbie group.
Oct 27, 2019 3:06 pm
Given that I currently have a player in my RL group who has a bad habit of reading the adventures I'm running for the group, I tend to make homebrewed adventures, or make exhausting changes to already published ones. So for me, this is not a problem.
Oct 27, 2019 3:12 pm
I think that many GMs, long term or short term have been burned by players who read ahead, just like they might look for walkthroughs on YouTube for awesome builds or how to get past tricky bits of their current video game.

I've had players that just knew all the monster stats, having basically memorized the Monster Manual. And no, they didn't pretend at ignorance even when their characters had no relevant experience.

So because some players havie these tendencies, a GM asks for purposeful ignorance. After all, who applies to these games include random people from the internet, not necessarily just users you've interacted with before.

If you can separate meta knowledge, PM the GM involved and make your pitch. Eloquence may bridge the gap of trust.
Oct 27, 2019 4:16 pm
It is a mix, PBP is harder as you don't know if a player is looking at a module before they post so asking players not to read it is acceptable. In a real life game you see if they are looking something up and they cannot open the module in front of you to see what to do.

On the other hand I think those who have GMed or even been a player for a long time are better at separating player vs character knowledge. Right now i am in two games that are using modules that I have played be it many years ago but I know the basic outline if not all the details. So I have to be careful of using that knowledge in my play. here is a couple of things that might help players who have trouble with it but want to play an adventure they know but would enjoy playing again.

One thing I do to help keep them separate is that when there is a decision to do X or Y, I do two things first I think of my characters personalty and what they would do if I did not know the "correct" answer. Second I see what the group decides and not try to influence them except by what my characters reason would be for either answer. and allow the group decision to take precedent.
I am also one who likes to play for the story not the final result so i will put my character in a bad situation if that is what they would do. So when you play think not about "winning" the adventure but having a goos story to tell. I have found getting into trouble and having to dig yourself out has given me more enjoyment and memories than just finishing an adventure.

Another thing I do when I know n adventure is that I keep notes on what my player knows. I refer to that so I do not use information they do not have to make a decision.

As to what Qralloq says, he has a point but I find the same people who do that tens also to be min/maxers, rules lawyers or do anything to always give their characters the best advantage in all situations. So you many times find those who wish to "cheat" by using knowledge of the adventure the same ones who will cause problems anyway, this is just another of their outlets they use to do so. I say that because the same one who read an adventure are the same one who many times will try to spoil and adventure anyway. Now i am not saying people who try to make the best character or use the rules correctly are part of this but those who use the rules to give them all the advantages but not the spirit or consequences that the same rules are there for.
Oct 27, 2019 6:53 pm
Hi!
I'm brand new at the dice games and was surprised that you guys have problems with 'Meta-gaming'. But then again I shouldn't be because even in Free-Form writing you have people like that who use the info to make their characters look more cool or powerful. Sadly there isn't much you can do about these things because there will always be cheaters like that who only want to 'win'. And I'm sure that with the amount of games out there, and games that have been around since the 70's-80's it'll be more difficult to weed out the bad apples.

Perhaps you can enforce the idea of your players keeping an IC Journal in a separate thread? That way it'll be more difficult for them to cheat because all your character's knowledge is in that thread. As GM if you spot something fishy you could refer to those journals and say; Ya know, you're character wouldn't know so and such. So explain yourself! I have no clue what most character sheets look like but perhaps there's an option to add the character's personality and background story; The way they grew up and their education. That can be another way to scare off cheaters cause they won't be able to explain that for example their thief who's only dealt with low-born riffraff suddenly has friends in the royal court. Cause according to their background that would be highly unlikely.

Exceptions can be made of course, etc... But yea, not much you can do to avoid cheaters.
Oct 27, 2019 7:15 pm
I'm not gonna fault anyone for being selective about who they invite to the game they're gonna run. GMs tend to want to craft the experience, I get that, I do that, it's a part of the whole thing - a good GM wants the game to be an experience. That's good.

But I found decades ago that meta-gaming just isn't something that there is any value in fighting.

Usually, you can spot it, and call the person out, ask them not to do it again. If they keep doing it, THEN you have a problem.

When you can't spot it, then the player is liking meta-gaming to craft a better game experience. I do this. I know my table-mates at my IRL table do this. I know players in my PBP games have done this.

The important thing is trust. And not violating that trust.

I trust my players to meta-game in the best ways possible, and when that trust is violated, only then is there a problem and it's not the meta-gaming.

Craft the experience, yes. But, trust your players. And players, be trustworthy.
Last edited October 27, 2019 7:16 pm
Dec 9, 2019 3:39 pm
I am running a test intro adventure for Savage Worlds with pregenerated characters and it also contains a short set of the rules my players will need. So they need the free pdf. I asked the players to skip to the end for the pregens and rules. I trust them not to read the adventure. Where is the fun in that? Same for an intro Pathfinder 2 game I am in. We all have the pdf and we skip to our pregens, eyes averted for the other stuff. I trust the people I game with. I just don't get why people would ruin their own experience by doing that. Fortunately I have not been any games like that yet.
Last edited December 9, 2019 3:39 pm
Dec 14, 2019 2:37 am
Sadly, I have a player who once told me, "If I'm in the bookstore, and the adventure happens to be sitting open on the shelf, that's divine intervention that I should be allowed to read it."
Dec 17, 2019 4:04 pm
The key to using any and all published adventures is to use them as a template and dig in and make alterations to make it your own adding twists and changing the published outline such that even if you read the thing it would be of little help to you as a player. As that is true storytelling -- just running something that someone else wrote verbatim is imho a waste of your time and that of the players. Be creative make it a unique experience -- then you can use that module and/or elements of that module over and over and over again the players will never know ;)
Dec 17, 2019 7:16 pm
Where is the fun in cheating?
Feb 27, 2020 4:34 pm
DeJoker says:
The key to using any and all published adventures is to use them as a template and dig in and make alterations to make it your own adding twists and changing the published outline such that even if you read the thing it would be of little help to you as a player.
This is true, but you also have to be able to trust your players to tell you if they're familiar with an adventure. Even if I'm planning to adapt a published adventure, I want to know if I need to change every decision point because Pete the Divine Intervention Module Reader is playing. I'll likely approach the game differently than if I'm playing with a table of newbies.

I make changes to any adventure I run, but it'll often be based on character decisions rather than to obfuscate the published storyline. If you're making significant changes, it's more "inspired by" a published adventure rather than "running" a published adventure.
Feb 27, 2020 5:37 pm
Okay KermitThePog -- I will concur -- I have pretty much never ran a published adventure as I only run published inspired adventures and the beauty of that is I can use them over and over and over again without ever needing to be concerned that anyone has every played in said published adventure. Further no one ever has to tell me they have played in said published adventure because I do not tell them its based on one and if they find out it is based on one they have played in there is never an issue with them using information about the adventure because it will only be inspired by it.

Where I have the most problem with player meta-gaming is when players react to things the player is aware of that their character would have no ability to know about and this has nothing to do with the adventure itself but how they conduct themselves in encounters. This used to annoy me a lot and while I still find it a bit annoying I for the most part just try to ignore it because the name of the game is to have fun and if it is fun for them and does not detract from the other players fun there is no real harm in that.

campeador -- I have actually encountered players who do seem to get pleasure from cheating and/or meta-gaming and/or power-gaming some even to an extreme that I found unacceptable such as -- I had clearly stated that I was running a low-powered superhero game on the level of batman, daredevil and such and the player wanted to make a god character and they wanted all the players to have god characters -- and that was almost quoting them word for word. I mean what do you do with that?
Last edited February 27, 2020 5:37 pm
Feb 27, 2020 5:44 pm
Quote:
campeador -- I have actually encountered players who do seem to get pleasure from cheating and/or meta-gaming and/or power-gaming some even to an extreme that I found unacceptable such as -- I had clearly stated that I was running a low-powered superhero game on the level of batman, daredevil and such and the player wanted to make a god character and they wanted all the players to have god characters -- and that was almost quoting them word for word. I mean what do you do with that?
You punch them.
Feb 27, 2020 5:59 pm
lol thanks theeyetyrant but it was a PbP game all I would have done is busted my monitor or computer ;)
Feb 27, 2020 6:05 pm
Punching people is always my answer. Lol
Feb 27, 2020 8:15 pm
DeJoker - You make a good case for running "inspired by" adventures. I enjoy both, but I think one of the things I like about running published adventures is seeing how the players' decisions alter things. Sort of a window into an alternate dimension. But that may also be informed by the fact that I don't always enjoy the prep.
theeyetyrant says:
Punching people is always my answer. Lol
Pretty sure I've played IRL games with you... ;)
Feb 27, 2020 8:28 pm
One of the other things about running a published adventure as is -- is that its a railway in need of a conductor and a some passengers -- and most players I have found like to push the boundaries and step off of those rails -- then that train grinds to a halt. I prefer to -- as you put it -- see how the players decisions alter (well actually just affect) things -- one of the rules in GMing that was given to me was-- players will always do the unexpected so plan for that and keep in mind they will still surprise you so enjoy it and simply go with the flow -- as such I use modules (or pieces of them) to reduce my prep time and/or flesh out elements that I had not addressed as of yet but that was mostly for FtF games as PbP games give me ample time to make adjustments on the fly
Last edited February 27, 2020 8:30 pm

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