Northlands Saga 0: Spears in the Ice

This might seem boring / non-heroic, but I'm trying to let Ulf find his voice... and this is what he's telling me.

I forgot I already had Frodi's name. Oops!

In games such as this (and many others), I've settled into a comfort zone where there's description and RP and all the rest... and sometimes punctuating all that with a roll fells right. I think it does here. He can tell something is going on, but he cannot tell what. Success here wouldn't be, I don't think, you just blabbing exactly what she feels and is worried about, but potentially offering up more hints and clues and insights.

To the Die of Fate!

Curse your old school reading of the d6 roll! Also, lookit you experimenting with the interface, headers and such!

I suppose now is a good opportunity just to use some box text from the adventure. This will help anchor some important NPCs.

Ulfarr knows Fastvi is about to ride away at a rapid pace. If you want to do something about it, in this moment, such as restraining her deftly, I'll need a Saving Throw.

Does that include just taking off after her, trying to keep up? He won't be so bold as to try and pluck her off her horse or block her way or the like...

Making the Save regardless. Perhaps at +1 if STR-related, or do you do that kind of thing?

That's a miss! (And no, I do not "do that kind of thing." 😊

Any chance you can give me a little more to go on here — what at the others doing, how far in the lead is Fastvi, etc.?

Do you want to catch her up before she reaches these men? How’s this for a ruling? Describe how Ulfarr mostly approaches horse riding: Strength = brute force, Dexterity = reflexive direction to approaching obstacles, Intelligence = general training in horsemanship, Wisdom = general awareness of approaching obstacles, Charisma = connection with the mount. When you decide I’ll roll 3d6+1 (home turf advantage) for Fastvi’s skill.

Questions:

First, how many riders, what colors / garb, do they they weapons, what pace are they riding at? (Walk, Trot, Canter, Gallop?)

Second, what am I doing for this test? You've not told me what these attribute tests -are-. Save? Roll under with a d20? Roll under with 3d6?

You won’t be rolling anything. I’ll be rolling. When you decide on your approach, we’ll use your most relevant attribute as your "score." And I’ll roll 3d6 for Fastvi and see if I can beat you.

Smart. But...

If you're going to take your eyes off your task, even for the briefest of seconds, I'm going to rule you suffer -1 on the value of whatever Attribute you select for the task of catching up Astrid.

So do you still wish to do it?

Yup, you unapologetic simulationist's simulationist!

❤️ You know me well. I have been thinking that, for my main gaming, I'm going deeper and deeper into Against the Darkmaster. It's my roots. It's my future too.

Whenever you're ready, go ahead and choose your Attribute.

Huh. I could have -sworn- that I already said STR, but... looks like not. STR! Ride with power and speed and force!

We'll have to raise virtual drinks at some point over the holidays and discuss this stuff. My return to d20 / D&D is much the same, my roots, and every now and then I long long, a little, for GURPS...

Oh, and enjoy Japan and seeing your son! Fly safely!

FYI, though many go by the name of Bjørn in these lands, the description matches the Bjørn you know. The scar on the chin is new to you, however.

Has Ulfarr ever heard of this witch?

Ulf will have a couple of objectives from here -- continue on with the girls, where they want to go... with the exception of near the woods or any other plainly dangerous place. Additionally, he would really like some quiet time to talk with Astrid while the girls are riding and exploring.

I should clarify, after what I presume will be some explaining from the NPCs, the meadow that the daughters seek simply is as far into the forest as this big X I have drawn here.

To the forest! If there is time / opportunity, Ulf would test whether or not Astrid heard the mention of Bjørn. And if not, still a good opportunity to talk with her further since we've been rushed / occupied to this point.

I know I'm tired when I type 'to' instead of 'too', and then don't catch it until a day or two later. Oi.

So we have established that Astrid is a Spear Maiden, but that title has very little to do, mechanically, with the utter rubbish that is in that Player's Guide. Interestingly, in The Northlands Saga Complete for S&W, there are absolutely no mentions of those various new subclasses.

I know, the S&W classes have PF shit! Emphasis on shit. I love the idea of the Spear-Maidens, though, and it's a STRONG OSR move to just make her a fighter.

Is Runa speaking to something that has form or shape, or is she literally speaking to the air?

Nothing appears to be there—or perhaps something only she can see. She is speaking to the air.

What's the dog culture like in these Northlands? Are they valued, man's best friend kind of thing, or are there wild / abandoned dogs that range about?

Ulf will walk it out to the meadow gently. If the thing can't walk, and it'll let him, he'll carry it out for the girls to see and coo / fuss over.

I'll give you another scene to engage Astrid in discussion, if you like. Otherwise we can cut to "leaving time."

If you don't mind, I'll take you up on that since he *does* want to talk to her and they've been cut off at the pass a couple of times.

FYI, if there's time, there's a second subject to broach. But first this mystery, finally!

And then...

And to anticipate any questions, here is more direction from the adventure text itself (seriously, this has been great fun, an experiment, running an actual published "adventure," according to its "rules"):
* Anyone that spots the figures can begin a combat with a free surprise round
* The group is 80 feet away and has cover and concealment due to the trees

Moving to close the distance, hoping to get an answer from Astrid before hurling a javelin -- or not!

Fun! Fun! Fun! Also, this could get crazy.

We are using S&W Complete Revised. I suggest that we use, for a base upon which to form our rulings, Initiative and Order of Battle on page 35. From there we get wibbly, recognizing that this adventure was written for Pathfinder 1e, (inexpertly) converted to S&W Complete, and now being run with S&W Complete Revised. The Revised rules have changed Movement Rates, and that threatens to drastically change what I expect were the intentions in this scenario. But I don't care!

I assume Ulfarr is unencumbered. Hence his base movement rate is 12. Outdoors, that means you can go 120 yards in your Movement Phase! That means you can zip up there and attack someone at will during this "surprise round. Wow! I bet Ken Spencer didn't expect that!

That seems to be the optimal choice, because, with Cover, a thrown weapon, though easily within range (because of outdoor measures) will receive... to make it interesting I will say -1 vs one of the men and -2 to the witch, since she is just behind them and partially covered not only by the brush but by the men, for the attack roll.

So are you throwing a javelin, or do you want to rush upon the group? And, if you're attacking, which of the three figures will be your specific target?

I better double-check my inventory if we’re doing things by the book. Looks like I just hammered things down, and I don’t remember doing an encumbrance calc.

120 yards?!

Are these one minute combat rounds?

Ha ha! These are one minute combat rounds.

Now definitely is the time to discuss!

About encumbrance. You almost certainly won’t have an encumbrance penalty (but I’ll look over your sheet, too). In S&W, weight carried is weapons and armor + 10 lbs. in a reasonable amount of gear. Getting coins (XP) out of a dungeon is what encumbers a character!

Hey! It’s gamist, not realistic. Just like one minute combat rounds. 😜

Nothing crazy in his inventory, but he -does- have a lot of weapons.One minute combat rounds. One of the core things that drove me from AD&D. :)

I will give this some thought -- might indeed rush the group, perhaps just to disrupt whatever they are doing. Will post tonight.

Alright, he's indeed going to charge into the brush and try to interrupt the ceremony or ritual or whatever it is. Can he draw axe and shield and charge all the way over, shield-bashing one of the men?

Is your only goal to shield bash one of the men? If so, yes, certainly. I'd rule that as an attack roll. Success is you'd do 1d4 damage (the equivalent of a club). Even if you don't succeed, the person would be knocked down.

But I see you also drawing your ax. Is that in preparation for next round? Alternatively, I'd let you bash one character and strike at another with your free arm, your ax. The ax attack would be at -2 and the shield-bashed target would be knocked down but take no damage.

This is a free surprise round. If it weren't, I'd negate the +1 AC for the shield for using it in this way.

Ax (sic) is drawn only to be threatening. Real intent here is to charge in and disrupt what they are doing by slamming one of the two men with my shield.

Hm. I actually know that about Fighters in S&W, but I must have gotten turned around -somewhere- on it, as… well, look at my weapons…Looks to me like I need to adjust all those numbers down. Will do so shortly.

Also rolling for Initiative. Are you using phases / an optional system, or what? If we’re doing declarations and phases, Ulf intends to strike the man on the ground in front of him if he’s not already incapacitated.

Also, what’s your ruling on what it takes, in the middle of combat, to draw or switch weapons?

Looks like your side has won the initiative!

What this means is that you go first, in each phase of combat, before the other side does. I'm using this system:
Moreover, Fighters have the additional benefit over other classes:
And, incidentally, Astrid is an NPC, so she may not qualify, but Paladin PCs have this additional benefit:
There is no need to declare actions (unlike in VsD) except for what you're doing in each phase of the round. But, for expediency's sake, we might as well express our intentions before each round as a general overview. I've already indicated that my NPCs are going for their weapons and the witch seems to be chanting a spell of some kind.

Generally, drawing/changing a weapon should occur in the Movement phase. If you start doubling and tripling movements, we can make an in-moment ruling, which usually is a -1/-2 to any relevant rolls for what I call Combining Actions.

And, if you are going to strike the man on the ground, I will give you +1 to hit that target.

And, if your bearded ax is a two-handed weapon, it delivers +1 damage on a successful hit.

You’ve, uh… clearly thought about this!

Melee attack with the one-handed axe, so I think other actions happen first…

Remember, all of this is negotiable. Since you asked, I'm simply defaulting to what I call my Preferred Way to Play. I'll link you its contents in Discord. It's, in my view, a perfected form of old school resolutions based on my years-long home game before Covid.

Go ahead and roll your attack. +2 to hit (+1 Strength, +1 to your target's condition). I'll go ahead and roll my NPC's counterstrike, now, as he gains his feet and swings his ax. If you kill this guy, of course, this counterattack is void.

I'm cool with what you've presented so far -- and it sounds like it's been playtested! I've read the doc, but will probably need to be reminded of various things.

Edit: Oho! If perchance that takes the guy out and Ulf can make it to the witch, he'll try to brain her with the flat of his axe. (Wants her alive.)

If she's too far away and Astrid's foe is still up, chop him down next.

Pretty awesome, huh? What fun! 😏

Also, after that little combat, I have some things to share/discuss regarding "classed" NPCs. I think I have to depart from my usual practice in something regarding this campaign.

A) Holy shitskis, that dude has a lot of HP!
B) Holy railroad!
C) I am here for it! Let's roooooooooll!
D) What's up with classed NPCs and your usual practice?

A) Agreed.
Notes: The language "when berserk" seems to be an artifact from the conversion, because Finch's Human Berserkers in the rules simply get +2 to hit. (I forgot this, actually, but I don't think it mattered other than in my descriptive text. You may not have dodged so easily but his blow may have hit ineffectually on your armor. And I actually have a good idea for armor ablation, etc.) The HD value might seem high, but in Complete all "monsters" get d8 Hit Dice.

B) Yes. But. It appears the design intentions are to make the chances of success vanishingly small. Spencer acknowledges the possibility:
C) Agreed. I believe that this mode--PbP--is the best mode for exploring published material. The pace gives us the opportunity to "get it right," and we can take these frequent breaks for game analysis. Perhaps a maddening practice in traditional play (e.g., our recent experiment with Dune), but here it is a necessity. I have to show that I'm not at fault for this, whereas in traditional play I would have thrown aside the entire adventure already.

D) So. Here we go: In Swords & Wizardry Complete Finch makes his usual spot-on observations and shares his treasured advice for how to Referee "monsters" in combat. Here are two salient selections of text:
Couple this with the following in the a discussion regarding "Human" Monsters:
I would take this to mean that human NPCs are just as simple and versatile as "monsters." Their HD are d8 and their attack bonuses equal their HD. This is particularly useful when dealing with evil sorcerers--way less squishy! If it seems unbalanced, I figure that, as long as you strip out or eyeball the usual stat bonuses that classed PCs enjoy and special abilities, a human "monster" can be fairly commensurate to a PC, especially when you're dealing with a party of PCs.

However, the Revised version of Swords & Wizardry Complete now provides "Helpful Stat Blocks" for classed characters (see pp. 85-87), and the Book of Options provides stats even for multi-classed characters! I wonder if Finch caved to some pressure and requests from outside players.

Now that I've laid all this out for you, I'm returning to my preference of running "human" NPCs as "monsters," but many of the implicit assumptions within the game--from the hiring of Henchmen to providing stat blocks--suggest that classed characters actually should follow the same rules as the PCs more often. When we recognize, additionally, that the Northlands Saga was written for the highly granular and "equitable" rules set of Pathfinder, inexpertly converted to Swords & Wizardry, and that, in the PbP mode, I have all the time in the world to define my characters to the utmost degree, then perhaps "human" characters should follow the same rules (mostly, I did already give Astrid a +5 bump to her HP, as is my house rule for PCs, and I have given her Paladin powers, but I haven't defined her attributes).

Thoughts?

Oh man! Lots to respond to! I'm here for it. Often we would take these discussions to the OOC channel, but it doesn't really matter with just the two of us digging in.

A. Quick question: where are you keeping stats like these?
I used to track it all separately, but with GP it's very easy to have it right in the game, very close to hand.

Interested to hear your idea on ablative armor...

---

B. Neat. I think I -almost- stopped the ritual! I thought knocking the stone / shield away would do it. Ah well.

C. Yup, love having the meta. Doesn't harm the fiction in my head / story even a -little-. Interesting how some of us really don't mind meshing and mingling and separating when we need to, and some folks haaaaaaate it.

PbP *is* a great format for having those 'step back and discuss' conversations, and yes, there's NO WAY you would have run this live. The extra time PbP provides makes it richer, deeper, and less dumb. Partly because the GM (and the players, if they know what they are doing), can be 'bug stomping' the whole time. Adjust for coolness on the fly, when 'the fly' can be thinking about it overnight.

D. Love Finch's takes! I've long been surprised that more OSR games just don't make straight use of Level or HD. As in "add Level / HD to the attack if the creature / person is good at fighting, half of that if they are not. No modifier if they avoid combat like the plague." Same thing with AC -- could easily just be 9 or 10 + HD, though that might wrankle your sim sensibilities. Damage could easily be + Level / HD. Healing could be + Level / HD. It's right there for the taking.

I'm an *enormous* fan of not building NPCs like PCs. I don't have time for that shit -- it's frankly best practice to be able to quickly build the opposition like that (people as monsters), to have mob / team-up rules, to have lieutenant and boss rules, etc.

I had -not- thought before about all 'monsters,' including wizards, having a d8 HD. In my head, though, I already do thing. I'll assign bad ass versions of the monster with 5-8 HPs per HD, and 1-4 for the gimps and weaklings. Magic Users could easily be 3 HD, 9 HP. Helps with hitting and saves, keeps them brittle to avoid long and sloggy combats.

Side Note: I hate when authors / designers cave to the unwashed masses who don't have two goddamned red cents to rub together when it comes to game design.

To your question at the end, I think it's super-easy (barely an inconvenience) to mix the simple human-as-monster approach with 'Named' or 'Special' NPCs just by assigning a few extra goodies. Better AC due to armor, damage per weapon, assign higher HP per HD for fighter types, lower for squishy types. Call out any stats that are high if they are meaningful. Being consistent one way or the other is great, but I personally would slew to the simple for, say the two brutes and the witch, and get a *little* more specific with Astrid's bad self and Ulf's asshole half brother WHO WILL EAT STEEL.

So. Yeah. Great discussion!

Oh my! I am sitting down here to begin the next chapter, and I find in the module that after a description of the encounter in the Meadows there are Encounter Areas listed and expanded for the PCs' journey to the Meadows. Ingenious organization! Well, I guess you had no encounters on the way! Maybe you'll find them later in game play.

Well fuck.

Ah, I see.

I consider Astrid part of the party, so, whenever I post box text, you may assume that "you" also refers to Astrid.

But...

Hit Location?! You need to play GURPS, man. NEED to.

The rest isn't box-text, precisely, but reams and reams of stuff for the GM. And it answers, fairly succinctly, much of where this narrative is heading, so I'll share it as my way of pressing forward.

Infodump! Are we presuming all of this happened? I’m happy to write a brief passage summarizing Ulf’s approach through most of that. He’s definitely going to want go after them, btw. After collecting the horses.

What’s reading and writing like in this land?

One more thing: What did you and Astrid do with the girls' horses? It seems to me you have two options: bring them with you. After all, the girls may need them, and you will benefit to trade out unridden mounts during your pursuit. Or you may send them with a slap back in the direction of Silvermeade Hall as a possible other clue to what has happened in the meadows.

On the horses, I wrote this, above:
We are of a mind! However, I think Ulf would send back the mount that is most likely to make it. So send *one* horse home as a sign something is wrong, take the other two with us for fresh legs and for the girls if and when we find them.

Is the first decision here to ride through the Trollfist Hills, or along their edge next to the moors? Is it possible to tell which way the girls were taken? Sweet maps, btw. Love them. Great look, but highly legible and usable.

Ah, yes. It appears you have three choices. The adventure text specifies that the the kidnappers have taken the "first route," and it also seems to suggest that by this time the adventurers have realized the ultimate destination here is the Tor, so two other options remain:

The fast route is the one. Stay on their trail in case they deviate. Ride the edge of the Moors and Barrowlands.

The text needs the players to make a choice:

And why would the characters want to move at "reckless speed?" The text says this:

Interestingly, the text doesn't say what may happen to the PC's horses, should the PCs choose to move at reckless speed. Since you have fresh mounts with you, I think there is no risk to your horses.

We're almost free from this procedural stuff for a time.

Reckless Speed it is!

For comparison, box text:

Did Astrid just get exhausted? Poor little thing. ;)

Love the scene, and the box text from this is pretty great, I have to say! Questions: are we riding *through* part of the barrows, with barrow mounds on both sides of us? Is there just the one mound that seems to have been excavated? And finally… just one skeleton has risen, correct? Easy enough to ride around it or retreat from it if so… but I think you’re telling me the horses won’t move at all, is that right?

Great questions. As usual, our imaginations work in symmetry.

I have had great fun trying to interpret Spencer's intentions with this scene. Here is what he says:

Analysis

So, to answer your first question, think of this as an isolated barrow, separated from the others, though you can see other mounds within the lightning flashes a short distance to your west. On your east, a dark arm of the forest is visible and nearby.

Notice that the text says "in anticipation that someone might attempt to follow her trail," Sibbe set a trap. I'm sure that you and I can agree that a few skeletons clawing out of the ground as mounted pursuers gallop by does little to stop pursuit, as is Sibbe's intentions.

Therefore I determined, though the text says it not, that Sibbe performed a bit of magic, a ritual. Not only did she unearth the barrow, but she scattered the bones in a wide circle around the area so that
1. The horses will become paralyzed with fear, trapped in the magic circle.
2. While 1 Skeleton directly in front of the party and more Skeletons at the edge of the circle move in to slay the halted pursuers--or their horses!

A final question, as you ask, is just how many Skeletons there are here. When we recognize that most of these adventures are written with a belief that at least four characters will be involved, I think it's fair to halve the numbers that you will be facing in an encounter.

So Ulfarr's keen ears determine that there are three total Skeleton foes: one directly in front of him and the sounds of two more in the gloom at the edges of the magic circle of death.

Holding off on a roll in case you want to roll initiative, determine distance, yadda.

Distance is already determined: the shambling skeletons are 20 yards away. Skeletons (surprisingly!) move at 12, the same as you, so they easily can cover that distance and attack--moving 120 yards in a one-minute round outdoors. But--you're right!--we have not rolled Initiative yet. For expediency, I'll roll both. The first number is mine, the second yours.

Simultaneous!

Now I, too, am going to hold off on any rolls, just in case you have some more tactical or flavorful decisions here other than rolling a d20 for attack.

Oh dear.

Also, where and when can we talk about these combat rounds? I benefited from their absurdity once, and now I’m on the other side of that, paying the price. They were one of my least favorite parts of AD&D, and I loathe them in S&W Complete. I would argue in the modern sense of the OSR that they are *so* abstract that they completely undermine smart play on the part of the players, or tricky scenarios set up by the GM.

On a positive note, nice read of the init die! One of my *favorite* things in AD&D was the tied init roll, when the monsters got to hit back even if they were downed!

Last question, and I think I asked this before… no phases, is that right? Apologies for re-asking.

I wonder how "true to history" I want to be, as you are, having northerners dismount for combat. I'm going to keep Astrid on horseback for now.

Ulfarr can draw a different weapon and attack in the next round without penalty or take time to scoop up his dropped ax and attack with -1.

Next round. The Ulfarr has lost 2 HP. His horse is down to 6 HP. Still wondering where you're getting your +1 to your attack roll. 😉

Holding off on any rolls in case Ulfarr aims to do something clever. He has lost the initiative, however.

Gah, more attacks incoming. Presume I should wait to post.

Two things though.

First! One my +1 to hit, it's from my Strength -- he's a Fighter with 15 STR and


So should have a to-hit mod, just not a damage mod. And no BAB -- that's the part I had wrong before. (Completely bogus, should be changed for Fighters.)

Second! If you read my post above, when he dismounted, he also readied his shield. Making his AC 15! (It should be 16, shields are too weak in D&D.) Which I believe turns the skelly hit into a miss?

You’re totally right on that modifier but wrong on the skeleton missing. He’s a 1 HD monster so gets +1 to his attack, hitting a 15. (I can start adding these to the formula, if you want, to be entirely above board.)

Convention on GP (and virtually every other PbP site that has integrated rolling) is to add the mods so we see the final result. Also, you suck, and this just reaffirms why shields should be +2 to AC!

+25 in Rolemaster for shields, which equates to +5 on a 20! But RM has a 5% chance on exploding dice, so the comparison breaks a bit there.

Are you going to argue for +2 in our WB game?

I absolutely am. That and more! Much more!

JUST HAVING A WEAPON AT ALL should increase your AC. And hitting a schlub should be AAC 5 / DAC 15. And all armor should be rated higher, favoring those in armor more than 10 or 20%!

Attack! +1 from STR, -1 from having to grab his axe from the ground.

Wheeeee.

Okay, I sense it's time to start making this game our own. Otherwise it's going to be unsatisfying for both of us.

If I may, here are some talking points to begin with, sourced from your blog.

I dig it. I wonder how well it intersects with...

I think it's fine to double armor values, and I also think it's fine to give fighters an additional +1 to a base +2 shield.

Again I can live with it, particularly since S&W "monsters" get +1 per HD to hit.

Should we start playing this way? S&W is pretty sensible approximating monster ACs with whatever kind of "armor" they have, so I think this can be an easy adjustment on my end.

The other observation to make about this current scene.

Ulfarr is a fighter, and a fighter's gonna fight. And S&W, if it has anything, has fighting rules. So we're playing by those.

But I'm guessing that you don't have to be reminded that Ulfarr can try "anything." We just may have to negotiate how to resolve this "anything,"

Well lookit you! So begins the negotiation / rules wrassling you always talk about!

We should look at whether we want to pile these all together, but I do think you can if you're careful with the new AC baseline.

You're suggesting Base AC 8, double armor values, +1 AC for Fighters using shields, and AC bonuses due to being armed? For the latter, I don't know that we need to pile that onto the shield bonus for those with sword and board.

What about, for a Fighter:

Unarmed: AC is 8 + DEX Bonus + Armor Bonus
Armed: AC is 8 + DEX Bonus + Armor Bonus + 1 (Weapon)
Using a Shield: AC is 8 + DEX Bonus + Armor Bonus + 2 (Shield)

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On the current scene, am I missing something obvious? I have some ideas since these skeletons are moldering, but...

Getting things in order before recommitting myself to this scenario. I posted our new rules in the Rules Negotiations for easy review.

Also, no, you're not missing anything in the current scene. I have shared virtually everything that the adventure provides--and then some! Essentially, it's an encounter with skeletons, and I added details of my own to make the author's presumed intent for the encounter actually happen.

I'm just reminding you of how the old school games I play/run tend to go. For example, I recall that your first intention was simply to ride past the encounter. Oftentimes there is a dialogue between player and GM. "Is there a ... nearby? Okay, so I..." "You said they are using bronze weapons, right? Okay, I ... " Sometimes the scene grows or receives detail based on player questions arising from schemes the players may have. Often the Die of Fate is used to answer the more debatable targets of those questions.

Ah yes. Well, bear in mind that I am at time a brute at heart, and will sometimes want to just crush my foes -- or die trying. :)

I've been distracted lately as well, work as usual and get the second O.S.R. sessions squared away.

Right -- no pressure on this one, but I want to make sure you're not waiting on me. Are you?

Ha ha! No I am not waiting on you. You're totally waiting on me! I see that roll that absolutely did not do anything. I have to get my thoughts together--and our new rules--and post something sooner or later.

Cool. Just checking. I did know you were ruminating on the house rules.