[OOC] General Discussion

I played a tiny bit of 5e but it died quickly and I never was sure what was going on due to vague writing by the gm

And I used a pregen because the gm said so

Played 5e here on GP and around a table. But mainly an arcade character. I'm not super familiar with the hacking rules

Played 2nd, 3rd, 4th and tried 5th once or twice...

Played earlier version games that never actually lasted. So i guess seeing some characters surviving or maybe even thriving in the complex SR landscape is my hope :P

I am in the dead pool ;) 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th (I think never paid much attention to versions) and I have ran a version or two of it as well twice

One face-to-face and one or two PbP which is why I mentioned the thing with the issue with splitting the party when it comes to the Cyber-Realm and my work around for it

Yes but even in PbP what I found was when everyone is waiting on the Technomancer to go into the Cyber-Realm and searches for a way to open the door they are needing and waiting to get through due to how they chose to plan to pull the job -- a lot of time can pass in real time that only took a few seconds or a minute within the Cyber-Realm. So having additional threads I did not find helped this and it was something that was kind of happening enough to be problematic -- perhaps I was just not handling it properly but I could find no suggestions a better way to go about it. In the end you either cut short the Cyber-Realm time short changing those players or the other players spend a good amount of time cooling their heels until the Cyber-Realm stuff is done.

Again I only put this forth due to the alternative method I came about using in case you were interested in that -- but I am good with it as I do not have a problem with cooling my heels ;) for I understand the nature of the beast and I do want everyone to have fun not just me

I think we should be ok with the matrix in 6e. Now its as simple as "make your check, you're in!"
Matrix in Shadowrun 6e

Well I have to admit that looks rather hopeful will need to see how that all plays out though.

Well I rarely encountered the Wizard Astral thing (okay never encountered it) but I almost always encountered that CyberRealm bottleneck thing -- further my work around added a different spice to the game -- granted it did require some extra work up front as everyone had to have a CyberRealm signature based on their in-game character and of course being in the CyberRealm really played havoc with spell casters. Of course the same could be done I suppose for the Astral region and then the tech-heads would be totally hosed.

The nice thing was it gave the folks a secondary means of travel/access since everyone could physically go into the CyberRealm and then come out -- or be stuck inside if they lost their guide (a higher risk situation) but again it creates a whole different paradigm that you may or may not want to explore and as such I/we would have to redesign things to fit the 6e rule set -- assuming I can locate previous set of guidelines I used. Then of course you would have to decide on what the CyberRealm/AstralReal paradigms would be do you Tron-like the CyberRealm and FantasyPast the AstralRealm or go with something completely different. I initially tried doing Paradigms by Corporation but that got to be too detailed was much easier to use a single theme-set

Just sharing mostly --- sometimes sharing helps the game out but it is always up to the Storyteller to decide what they want to and do not want to do for their game.

Also I think I was mentioning more for outlining it as I did not think it fit or would be as needed for 6e from the sounds of things. But if as we merrily toddle along we (mostly you) discover that there are still bottlenecks -- you will at least have this on the back burner as a possible idea or an idea to branch out from.

Yeah too me sometimes the "home brew" is necessary to fix some glaring issue -- and some of my "home brews" are official or greatly influenced official -- not in Shadowrun mind you other game systems

I was reading some combat rules. To smooth out the edge calculations, I suggest that we are very upfront with AR and DR (Attack and Defence ratings)

Hey Bedzone are you on Discord (if yes) can you shoot me a friend request to `DeJoker#1460` thanks either way

Just did! You get it? If not search for me Bedzone II (those are ii not 11)

Got it thanks

What are your feelings about the Earthdawn / Shadowrun connection?

I remember they were trying to make the connections because they were both FASA properties, just like they were trying to connect Battletech with Renegade Legion. Are you hoping to make some flavour connection?

just curious - I'm rethinking my character concept. Making a mage with social skills

Hey, is it alright if I can use a custom character sheet? The 5e sheet has some things on it that would just confused me and the initiative section doesn't leave me with the ability to add the + sign

Didn't like the feel of the 5e sheet either.

So I vote custom or linking the Google sheet one :p

Hey Folks. I understand there's... some... shadowrunning going on?

I am thinking of playing a hella chrome street sam who leans heavily into the trenchcoat and katana schtick.

We are getting ready, still plenty of time to jump in!

Still playing around with my build...
Still going for a weapon specialist, leaning into the sniper. He's gonna be cowboy themed (revolver, hunting rifle, trench coat, cowboy hat...), but I'm still unsure if I'll go adept or street-sam....

Why not both? There is quite a bit of low essence augment and you can plan some initiation to upgrade magic over time. So you could consider if you can take the best of both ;)

I'm thinking of playing my character as a dominatrix. Is there any one that would be uncomfortable with that kind of sexual play?

Well not unless you get real graphic with it but then getting too graphic with any sexual play I do not think would be acceptable on this site

Think this would be a great idea! I'll see if I can make it work....

Yea, I ask specifically about matrix VR init dice. Hot sim give some extra init dice but I was wondering if some other init boost carried over in VR

That is not my question, does augmentation like wired reflexes and the synaptic BioWare, or spells that boost init give also their bonus when you are in VR?

Mmm, I thought than since they were incompatible with other init dice buff, that they would be incompatible with the VR init dice buff...

Now I have to decide between a Control Rig rating 3 or lowering to get extra init...

Um....*has totally watched all of those*

Not really matrix...Ghost in the shell was good (the movie remake)...

The Matrix is, in my book, not a cyberpunk movie. Ghost in the Shell and Blade Runner, and especially Johnny Mnemonic is very shadowrun/cyperpunk.

Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner, Johnny Mnemonic, Sin City, all kind of blended together with a splash of maybe even Virtual Revolution. A feel that the Shadowrun World would be as diverse as they describe it, as I have read several Shadowrun stories that add another view to the mix as well.

What I like about Virtual Revolution is that it brings into the mix a truer aspect of human nature and that is escapism something that I feel a good amount of the population just might buy into.

I believe Shadowrun have (and should have) many different tone depending on social strata, the cause you help and the groups you oppose.

As Shadowrunners, I think its a unique position to explore how those level interact for good and for bad. Like the unintended consequences of corporates/magic groups fighting on normal people. Like when you realize that the criminal group that does human trafficking is the main source of security and order in a neighbourhood and stopping them would like to many innocents deaths.

No matter the tone, I want to see how my character adapt to it as an outsider and how he grows and changes through to experience.

Johnny Mnemonic and Blade Runner are the top 2 movies I can see being in shadowrun. There are others, but those two are the best for me.

It will be interesting being outsiders in Neo-Tokyo especially with the xenophobic nature of Japan

If I had to match up shadowrun to something, it'd have to be a Ghost in the Shell/Black Lagoon mix.

What is Black Lagoon? I did a google on that and can only find The Creature from the Black Lagoon?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lagoon

Ah not a movie okay makes sense thanks @Melanqolia

Here's Clint Westwood, aka Jericho, in his cowboy themed full body armor...

....shit !! just realised I haven't put any contacts yet... You want me to put them now, or fill them during gameplay ?

I've got my contacts in there already. They're basically most of my backstory too.

Backstory: Eunbyeol is a Asset Recovery Specialist for a club downtown called Z3r0 (in whatever city we're in). Essentially what that means is that she gets the club's money back from people who don't seem to understand that you need to pay for the drinks and drugs you get while you're there. Mostly, this involves pickpocketing or a quick roofie. Sometimes it involves trailing them and relocating their more expensive possessions. She gets a percentage of what she recovers. The club would rather get 85% of their cash back than none at all, so it works for everyone. She's been doing this for a while now, but word's been getting around, and so less people are stiffing the club, and that means less work for her. Now she's scrimping to make it through every month, and she's going to have to find something better before she's out on the streets. Not that they'd be worse than where she is, but at least her bathroom currently has a door.

Asked you some questions about my post on discord, Bed.

Sorry was writing my back story and got hit with a cold or perhaps re-hit not sure -- hard to write creatively when your heads in a fog of you cannot think

Thankssss

Alright, finally got the post done

Nice slick ;-) give me something and then lock the thread so I cannot reply

Hey @Falconloft would you mind maybe adding a spoiler translation for us who language challenged individualsLike the only word I understood in that was the first one (at list think so)

I suppose I could. It was more meant to be annoying than convey a message to anyone around her.

I know but it would have been perhaps fun to read ;-)

Hey BedzoneII can my Commlink have translation software in it -- I think it had space for something like that? And if yes could this be also used in face to face communication as well somehow? Or would I need some other device for that?

1ns0mn1a is a bit of a mouthful, just use Sarah

For my character, I'd prefer using Clint Westwood for all non-shadowrunning activities.

Helios-Zen for non-shadow activities Spyder otherwise.

Holy cow those things are expensive -- does one need to buy one for each and every language that exists or is it a universal translator type thing?

Oh Sarah's in Hong Kong with us ;-)

Hey you cannot blame a guy for trying can you -- I mean we would be one big happy family if she was -- but that is kind of up to her player -- I smiled and winked


Would you like me to give what I put together -- I was just noting some tweaks to the generic Animal Spirit that would make it more of a Spider was all.... okay well I sent it and my thoughts on it to you on Discord

Boston, USA

Ah well I tried

You got the second letter right

well I got several letters correct -- 2 Os and an N (okay I had 2) --- hmmm 3 out of 6 batting 500 not too bad

still I think your character would have had fun in Hong Kong with us ;)

Maybe...but I'm boring AND THE TEA MASSACRE MUST NEVER BE FORGOTTEN

Massacre I thought is was a "Party" ;) and they just served it up in a really big bowl

I'm finally about to settle down to a regular posting schedule, but I'd like to make some observations about SR 6e. As you all recall, my original intention was to give 6e rules a run, and also see if PbP works for it (since it's often its crunchiness that bogs it down.)
1. Character generation is simpler. But still crunchy. Still have to read two or three different places just to check that nothing conflicts with each other.
2. Using only the core rulebook means it's been difficult to try to create something from an earlier edition. But I do think there's enough there to create a vibrant character.
3. I'm more susceptible to mistakes myself, as I have to unlearn some of the older editions. Thanks for being patient with me on this.
4. I'm looking forward to playing with Edge, and rolling more straightforward opposed tests as a cleaner mechanic. I'll reserve judgement until we run out first team combat. ;)

Alright,if you have any first impressions about the system let me know. Otherwise onward with the story!

Alot of the apparent crunchyness actually seems to come from bad editing in the book, making some rules unclear, unwritten or hard to find.

Once the dice pool have been properly establish, the only thing left to calculate in a situation is edge. I suspect that we may have to establish a system for all the off turn actions in combat though, like a way to apply the dodges and hit the street before or after so it doesnt not take a full post.

I also think that edge will bring some interesting strategies for those who take care to exploit it, like an actual use for splitting your dice between 2 targets to farm some edge in a fight. Going for anticipation for Full dice on multiple targets, add edge to your pool dice for the tough one or regaining health in attrition fight can all change the balance of a scene beautifully.

Up to now, the greatest slowdown i've seen is getting familiar with the setting and its perks, both social and technical.

First impression -- currently a bit weak as in there ought to be guidelines for augmenting things as it is you only have the limited static stuff they presented and presumably will need to buy all the rest of the redone source material to get something a bit more dynamic to me the base guidelines should cover at least 90% of what you would need to create any concept not just a limited set...

So I guess I will have to truly reserve my opinion until they add some more meat to this skeleton that they have put forth.

Still I have seen a lot worse and played in things less flexible so its workable and thus playable

I still have to work the Edge system some more, but so far it seems to have simplified a lot of the gear-crunch

editing has room for improvement

For the rest: let us get back to it after a few rounds of combat.

heres a good :)
dog pic

or maybe this
jack russel

Hey BedzoneII since its just the same computer pseudo dice roller no matter who invokes it -- when it comes to things where I would not know the results it might be nicer to not know how well or bad I made my rolls ;) so can you make those hidden rolls and then just let me know the results without knowing how good or bad I did ??

I thought everyone might enjoy this and I cleared it with BedzoneII prior to posting it
--- with that said I hope you all enjoy this:

Question: I know insect spirits are bad but why are they bad?

Answer: Take a cockroach. An average, ordinary, everyday cockroach. Real tough bugger to kill, as they can survive nearly everything including toxic levels of radiation and is, what, about an inch long at most and often smaller? Now make that bug the size of a Troll, with the Dermal Deposits and Chitin that implies. That is just ONE TYPE of Insect Spirit. Got that part? Good. Now here's the next part: They see Meta-humanity the same way Locusts see grain.

Addendum: Which is why the Ares meta-plot (current) hooks are so good. I actually decided to get my players to accept a Shadowrun HorrorRun in which they are food being placed in a testing facility for Ares to test their insect program. They are not the infected, but the food. With the possibility of infection as they are also testing how dangerous releases could be. After they get done feeling like the locust lunch grain store I let the genie get out as it were, and they were then "conscripted" to help Ares (who just used them as food, again, as they now had unique skills against the hybrid) put the genie back in the bottle. Genie being a queen hybrid with some inspiration taken from Sil in Species, Dren in Splice etc, Alien(s) etc.

To say the least Bugs are horrible, and great for putting the fear of the Paranormal back into your players. Whether we call them Insect Spirits or Invae they are nasty, predatory abominations ripe for use by Storytellers who enjoy a bit of Horror in the 6th. And if you ever feel like running a retro adventure. Universal Brotherhood. Amazing run that. Bug City is likewise an amazing piece of Shadowrun writing and/or just a great source for creating your own series of plots.

Also have you ever seen the 1997 movie Mimic -- Three years ago, entomologist Dr. Susan Tyler genetically created an insect to kill cockroaches that were carrying a virulent disease. Now, that insect has evolved and out to destroy their only predator, mankind.

--- Another interesting tid bit

Why are insect spirits the only ones that work the way they do? Why aren't there, for example, evil Wolf shamans summoning wolf spirits to take over human bodies? That would actually be a pretty badass alternate version of werewolves: The shaman summons an alpha or den mother spirit (queen) who then spawns wolf spirits to inhabit captured hosts. A less zoologically-themed totem could produce creatures largely indistinguishable from demons. If it's a matter of a particular kind of alien spirit that merely takes the form of insects, then why do they do that? Why such a specific restriction?

On top of that, the existence of Spider as a non-monstrous totem is a weird edge case that highlights the issue. True, spiders aren't insects, but again, why does that matter? They're still arthropods, just as alien to humans as ants and fireflies, and arguably closer to human comprehension than some of the more primordial totems like Sun or Leviathan; you could argue that those are more about how humans perceive the things they represent than their inherent nature, but you can say that about any totem. Why does the line get drawn exactly there?

So the insect spirits are really just alien spirits that happen to take the form of insects, and are the precursor to the coming of the Horrors, so if you do not like them, well, you ain't seen nothing yet. So any theories on why they do that, or is it just 'Alien Spirits, who the fuck knows why they do the shit they do'? This also lends credence to the speculation in Street Magic that there are no actual insect 'totems' per-sae, and their shamans are just contacting alien queen spirits who want to be summoned into our world.

Well, basically, those of us who can remember back to the days of FASA will also remember the links to another FASA game, Earthdawn. The Earthdawn lore was that these insect spirits were just a specific kind of alien dimensional entity that arrived at our world after being chased away from their own by the Horrors. Insect shamans do indeed worship individual queen/mother spirits as opposed to having general totems. But Earthdawn is set in the 4th World, after the magic rose so high that Horrors began to cross astrally to our world and eat/drive insane everything that did not hide out behind magic barriers but the magic declined so that most of these Horrors could not sustain themselves and died (or went home). So welcome to the SR 6th World, chummer, as magic becomes more and more powerful one can expect the Horrors will return -- and the insect spirits are just the precursor.

Still FASA made numerous tie-ins between the two games, certain Immortal Elves in Earth Dawn turned up in Shadowrun, like Harlequin. Same for some of the Dragons. So that means there are those knowledgeable about the Horrors of course that was FASA and they are no more.

This fits with the SR computer game that came out a while back as well.

Are the Translate and Animal Translate spells simply variant versions or completely two different spells? Aka if I know one I basically know the other and just have to choose which version I am casting?

I can just see it -- And Sarah gets busted before she even gets to Japan :) end of adventure

And what does the computer have against Mind Probes -- that is two horrible rolls by two different players -- could it be more than coincidental ;)

Pretty sure our Sarah as more ressource than a patrol bot ;)

That being said, could a be used to tell the Patrol IC to declare a false alarm or something like that?

Okay thanks for the clarification on that

waitwaitwaitwait...I can use spoof on an IC?????

I'm not sure, hence my question :p

is it just me or does that dice roller seem to roll a bit low ;) -- I know there nice and about the only real way to handle things in a PbP but random number generators are not truly random -- no such thing -- they are at best just pseudo-random

as a software engineer I once tried to create a good nearly random number generator the complexity of doing so was a bit more than I could handle and I was talking to a mathematician about it -- so pseudo-random is about the best we can obtain and in doing so only hope that the results are not skewed -- which is always an issue with these tools

Found this interesting reddit post comparing init and actions economy between SR5 and SR6

Is the way they count the number of minor actions accurate for our game?

Man flying can be such a pain these days ;) especially when you ping the radar because something nasty transpired on or after your flight ;) and make no mistakes while Japanese are polite they still do not like Gaijin or anyone that is not a normal oriental person that could pass for being native Japanese -- Shadowrun's (if ran per guidelines which it may or may not be) Japan is rather xenophobic or I would put it more xeno-prejudice

Good luck guys ;)

cool hi all

They do give Hotaru quite the culture clash, but I had fun writing him sorting out his thoughts out loud while restrained and on Psyche :P At least one of them seem to give him some leeway :P

Gonna be running a little slow for the next two or three days, the virus situation over here has made everyone run lots more overtime. But not to worry I'm perfectly safe!

ok just finished my gear when you can check it over need help figuring how much karma I have and what to spend it on

ok, I'm at 4.79 after taking out the essence cost of my Bioware. I spent some of my karma on my skills I think I have 12 karma left and will use that to get the analytical mind quality later down the road since I dropped that to have six qualities. hope that ok. i'm also going to spend 4 karma to get the Yamaha growler if i can. bu will wait for final verdict.

Cool !! Thanks, will be posting soon then...

Resources, attributes, skills(those two may have been flip-flopped), metatype human, magic

Resently I heard the Shadowrun Audiobook: Fire and frost, where they have mage, a decker, a rigger, an adept and the mandatory troll streetsamurai. I recomend it
But my point is, in this book, the group is in almost constant contact with each other's comlink. They have a voice/text chat room where they share data, notes, thoughts ect. Its how they keep track of their decker when he goes into a deep matrix dive. And that is why I assumed that Missy's list was shared with Helios

Yeah as soon as I get the coin Linguasoft it one of the things high on my list of to gets but they are ridiculously expensive for something that seems to be extremely common -- but it is what it is I suppose ;)

I'm pretty sure all commlink come from the factory with translating program and the linguasoft are for putting them directly in you head

If you can find that in the GAW (Guidelines As Written) I am sure I would be ecstatic but I think both I and BedzoneII read the Guidelines as stating you have to add them to a Commlink. Mainly because not all commlinks are made the same the lowest end Commlink does not even come with a Firewall (as some of higher end models do not as well) nor a slot to put an Active Program such as Linguasoft

DR = Device Rating
D/F = Data Processing / Firewall
APS = Active Program Slot (number of programs you can have running simultaneously)
As denoted within Commlinks there is no mention of Linguasoft being standard issue aspect of CommLinks further since Linguasofts are external programs you have to download that means you have to have an APS rating of at least 1 to run them thus excluding them from actually being standard inclusions into CommLinks as not all CommLinks come with an APS rating greater than zero. I think these to things are the reason I and BedzoneII believe that Linguasofts are considered to be one of these other add-on features

Although now that you bring it up I do believe their could be 2 different versions for Linguasoft the standard version as follows:This version is obviously only available to individuals with a Skilljack and since the program interfaces directly with the brain in some way perhaps this is why it costs 1500 nuyen per Language Rating per Language. The problem is there is no other version of Linguasoft or Language Translation Software denoted anywhere else within the Guidelines which I believe is why some fall back on this version for all such Translation Software because otherwise we would have to implement a none Skilljack version that just translates the language audioly. Perhaps a non-Skilljack version could cost less but then we are creating House-Rules and I know BedzoneII would rather not do that.

Still I could see a non-Skilljack version costing considerably less say 500 nuyen per Language Level per Language or even less or have some scaling factor such as LR 1 = 100n / LR 2 = +200n / LR 3 = +400n / LR 4 = +800n thus getting a Rating 4 non-Skilljack Translator version for you Commlink which while sophisticated would not be able to be augmented my you mind thus having a smaller dice pool to use when making the actual translation and thus making the Skilljack version much more reliable and than the old school version. Or maybe the old school version comes in 8 Levels instead of the Skilljack version to help compensate for this. So while a Rank 4 Skilljack costs 6000n -- the Rank 8 OldSchool costs 12,700n .... This seems to maintain the game balance and still allow for the more OldSchool version to be applicable and potentially as good as the Skilljack version if you are willing to shell out the necessary nuyen for the higher ratings. Further these are just ideas I am throwing out to bounce off BedzoneII should they choose to want to adopt something like this. I see this making it a lot easier for everyone (including non-Shadowrunners) to have some kind of Translation device in their Commlinks without needing a Skilljack and thus makes the more casual conversation much more viable while making the more Shadowrun implementations need those higher ratings to accomplish effectively

I guess I pictured that if some basic translation are available in 2020 directly on the internet, it would still exist on the Shadowrun Matrix. Especially if you use the speech to text basic function, it should be a no-brainer to run the text through a Google translate equivalent and sent the response.

High end translation programs would be another matter of course, but the core book didn't explore that part of Shadowrun's experience.

Yeah I had a similar thought in that I figure basic language translations would be available to all but it appears some Corporate entity bought the patented rights to LanguaSoft and actively pursues anyone creating software similar to it such that you have to buy it or go without it. Of course my concept of Skilljack vs OldSchool LanguaSoft could still apply since the higher demand I would presume would be for the Skilljack version as there are probably a let fewer folk who are not directly connected to the Matrix and of course the low end product is cheaper than Skilljack the OldSchool has a much higher premium for those higher end modules. This cooperate entity maintains a monopoly on the language translation software as they provide a cheap version that everyone can use which costs them next to nothing to provide so ends up being a win-win scenario for them kind of thing

I haven't seen anything about your theory of the Translation monopoly.

I believe it's more a case of missing rules in the hastily put together rulebook. Even the normal language rule is clearly lacking. As written, it is impossible for anyone not a genius to reliably speak a foreign language. (3 rank + average stat of 2 only go for 1 automatic success with the 4 dice rule, which would anything past the most basic conversation impossible for non native). It does not properly relate to reality and is not well thought out for a dice rolling rpg.

Oh my translation of the monopoly is based on their futuristic corporate structures outlined in the "flavor" of the game and the missing rules which were most likely left out on purpose (assuming they even existed previously which is a good question did they exist in one of the earlier version?) along with a lot of other rules that were in the previous version but have not been adapted to the new version as of yet as they are waiting to release another source book so the parent company can make more money by putting the old rules in a new wrapper and saving costs on production by re-releasing the old with a small amount of new.

We also have the premise put out by BedzoneII that he wanted to implement the game using the base guidelines put forth in this seemingly hasty rendition (which I am not convinced is the real truth) which has not received any augmented material as of yet which since it was released 2019/10/02 means of today it has been 5 months with no subsequent material guideline expansions/adaptations.

They have semi-released 3 supplements which appear to be just about setting fluff and potential adventures in updated settings with updated issues but I saw nothing that denoted they included additional updates/adaptations to the guidelines. These supplements are of course :Of course the worst I saw this done was by Games Workshop whose 1st Edition book was choke full of good guidelines then later on they created a much more trimmed down version which actually took off and then they slowly re-introduce sections of the 1st Edition rules into subsequent rule sets and required the players to have to re-buy all the materials if they wanted to be current but GW was not really adding anything new just re-releasing old materials with some tweaked fluff to explain the new material but most of their player base had never seen the original 1st Edition book so thought it was all new stuff. And GW new what it was doing and one of them even stated something to the effect that they were only interested in milking as much money out of their player base as they could and I heard that straight form the horses mouth so-to-speak. I thus stopped playing that game completely.

Okay I need to chime in and ask something for clarity here -- how does someone without a Skilljack use translation software if as you stated
(1) skills stuff needs additional equipment such as skilljacks
(2) the rules saw it fit to include knowledge skills and language skills here as well
(3) Commlinks do not do translations

The above seems to imply that Linguasoft like ActiveSoft requires a Skilljack (or other specialized equipment) and Commlinks are not considered this kind of specialized equipment.
--OR--
Did you just mean to say Commlinks by themselves do not do translations as you need an Active Linguasoft Program running to do that translation for you? Which means you have to buy that Linguasoft programs and activate them and thus the number of languages you can actively translate instead of based on your Skilljack rating is based on the number Active Program Slots your Commlink possess??

By the way what did you think about my idea of lowering the cost of Linguasofts that cannot be used in conjunction with a Skilljack and expanding the number of Ranks up to 8 (or 7 maybe) with that graduating pricing scale -- I am fine with just using the basic pricing on Linguasoft just thought it might have been something one of these corporations might do -- in order to seem more altruistic by providing an affordable translation software for the masses that eventually allows the corporation to actually make even more money once they get someone hooked on using the basic stuff and then having them wanting an even better version. Cast the bait, get them hooked, then slowly reel them in and fleece them of as much money as possible along the way.

Note I am not arguing this point -- I am just voicing my thoughts because it again seems rather confuzzling -- if you wish to make conversational level language translation next to impossible for the non-jacked-in community I suppose it is what it is and I will work around it but I personally do not feel it fits with the world order of things flavor wise.

For in a world where not everyone uses Skilljacks I would think there would be a large enough user base that some Corporate entity would have either redesigned the software or created a new one that facilitates language translations. The whole concept based on what currently exists is just a logistics issue and nothing more as in -- we have Voice to Text -- we have language to language document translators -- and we have Text to Voice so logistically we have the following

Voice to Text to Translator to Text to Voice

I would venture to guess even the most inexperienced Decker could put that together in no time at all. So yes it is a major oversight by the game designers but that does not mean it does not exist at all -- a chance to earn basically free nuyen for something that simple to implement I cannot see a corporation or corporations not having jumped all over that and trying to gain the most significant market share. Like the folks that actually create Linguasoft might have already done. Cover it heavily with international copyright laws and such to make it not really worth stealing and underselling or just dominating the market so that no other Corporation would even be interested in jumping into that pool.

However if you go with what has just been outlined then -- there is a major language issue in the world because casual conversation and documents cannot not be easily translated so the sender must either know the language of the recipient or the recipient the language of the sender and I stated there are currently 6,500 languages in our world today to which you add the new ones that the Shadowrun universe created to that and this makes languages a rather daunting mountain and subsequently creates major barriers to trade and such. Sure you can transcend that barrier if you are not allergic or opposed to sticking hardware in your body but with a world also filled with mage types of which I would imagine a majority of whom do not want to mess up their Essence I can again see a simplistic process in place to easily translate conversational speech. Look at the blind and deaf communities today -- they could reflect this sub-group I speak of and they currently have means to translate spoken words into text and translate a written language into brail (basically just another written lanaguage) and if you happen to be deaf and blind well you are using both voice to text to brail then text to voice -- I am not talking high grade stuff and sure its not perfect as currently the best rating you can have is a 4 (unless you adopt the augmentation to ranks I suggested) which is just 4d to translate which is not going to be perfect by any stretch.

To recap and put this all summed up in a simple premise

1) We have Voice to Text and Text to Voice software
2) We have Language A to Language B written word translators

Thus one should be able to get or create a program that does:

Voice to Language A to Written Translator to Language B to Voice

Yes no?

As a final note I feel the pain of this -- on one hand dealing with the language barrier in the Shadows is supposed to be a thing -- on the other hand within the non-Shadows it is considered to not be a thing. And this to me seems like a contradictorial conundrum

Honestly, it's probably not that big of a deal for the average person. Most people get by their entire life with speaking one language (and maybe two if you count regional slang as a language). There's not much impetus for that to change in Shadowrun where the average person is almost literally owned by a corp and never has to deal with anyone outside that corp. In fact, most megacorps would probably view anyone who had it with suspicion at best, since there's no reason that they'd 'need' it for their job.

Sure, some people need translation services, but those are the people who travel a lot and specifically for the purpose of facilitating global coordination, so they can afford it and are probably checked before they even get the job to ensure they can use the jacks they need without issue.

---

Also, it is probably worth noting that a Google-translate level of linguasoft would be a rating 1. Google is okay for basics, but gets weird if you go even a little bit deeper.

Thanks @Falconloft I have to admit I did not look through that window it makes a nice counterpoint. But what about the small population of folks that would need language translation and that could not use a skilljack? I mean we have populations like this currently that are serviced by volunteer entities okay so maybe its not the best of the best product but its something -- I am currently looking at absolutely nothing or having to learn the language via some kind of Instructional Software.

BTW they do have non-skilljack versions of language instructional software that can be acquired -- yes/no? Since I find cannot use Linguasoft now.

So here's just my two cents worth based on both previous editions' wording and my own uptake.

Yes, SR probably does have instant translation services. HOWEVER. Shadowrun is specifically about playing the part of the world where you're a runner. And for a runner, a translation service is not something you'd rely on on a run. Why?

Computers don't understand language. Like at all. I'll give you one simple yet major example. If you talk to a human and mess up a sentence, you can simply restart the sentence and the other human KNOWS that's what you're doing even if you don't tell it. That's a very basic part of linguistic communication that is easily overlooked -- the ability to communally reset a communication. A computer can't do it at all. They either 1) try to make the first garbled sentence and the new one into one sentence that somehow makes sense, or 2) just stop listening altogether. And that's JUST that one component. We're not even getting into things like idiom and slang.

Take the somewhat unseemly but slang-filled phrase, 'I need a girl with some junk in the trunk.' Depending on what language you run it to, it becomes:
- I need a girl with some trash in the trunk.
- I need a girl with some youth in the trunk.
- I need a girl with some mess in the trunk.
- I need a girl who puts some trash in the box.
- I need a junk girl in the trunk. (this one doesn't even confuse the slang, it confuses the preposition! A junk girl is a girl with junk as far as google is concerned.)

I make this point because I think that yes, instant translation does happen in SR. But it probably only happens when these things above can't. You go to a restaurant, the menu might change for you. You ask for directions, or tell a taxi where to go, maybe. But trying to use an instant translator to convince a scared gangbanger to put down his gun cuz you're not there to kill him? Not a chance. Even if the words were correct the inflection could get you in trouble.
- I'm not here to hurt you. This other guy though...
- I'm not here to hurt you. Correct?
- I'm not here to hurt you. I'll do it later, while you're not looking.
- I'm not here to hurt you. I'm here TO KILL YOU.
- I'm not here to hurt you. Where's your mama?

I think i found something p99 Language skills are Knowledge skills with specialization ranks. and p271 If we combine those two, a language datasoft would be the way to have a basic translation program on your commlink without needing a 20 000 nuyen headware.

Okay @Falconloft I can go there -- first off I was briefly involved in some of the real early issues with voice recognition which had to deal with not only slang and some of the other potential things you mention but also accents as well. Of course voice recognition has come a long way baby in a rather short amount of time as we now have Siri and Alexa both highly advance versions of their earlier predecessors which is to say they are growing up and getting older. Originally they were new born babes and now they might be equated to pre-teens as things progress they just keep getting better and better.

Next fairly recently the Voice Translator Device has been put on the market and these are children technology compared to the adult technology of the Shadowrun Era -- aka the forerunners to Linguasoft. So its not like what I presented was not even doable because we are already doing this and the Shadowrun Era far outstrips anything we can do currently. I mean I look at it from just a purely conceptual stand point and its like putting an old school hand brake on your hover board -- it just does not make a lot of sense to me

Note I do agree with the concept of we have thumb drives now no one stores media on flop-disks anymore, the same goes for VCR Tapes and 8-Track Tapes and Vinyl Records and list goes on an on and on --- but this occurs when the device no longer has any practical use. The simple Voice Translator Device would still have use and still be marketable and if there is money to be had selling it dang straight some corporation is going to be all over it and making as much money as is possible from it

Again I am fine with the whatever we are going to go with but it all boils down to -- if I can understand the why of it then I can set my mind to figuring out how to solve it -- because that is what shadowrunners are -- problem solvers and some are very creative at solving the problems that face them -- to me this is one of those problems -- and what I am doing is trying to ascertain the why of it so that can figure out how my character is going to deal with it

Sweet thanks @Vagrant that was very helpful ;) I have to say I cannot wait to have Bedzone read all this an weigh in so I can find out what their plan is going to be for this

But technically there is no RAI nor RAW as they are all considered by the designers to only be guidelines so its all either GAI or GAW ;) where did anyone get the impression that they are Rules?

As for (the datasoft version of linguasoft) lingatasoft I think I struck a cost to utility ratio that allowed a single rank for a single language in lingatasoft to be affordable by the mass and even a low rank lingatasoft viable for the run of the mill folk and those that need it to be critical. So first Linguasoft can be taken to Rank 4 which adds to your governing attribute and giving you the potential for a very high level in a specific language which is why its so expensive. So looking at just Linguasoft for max ranks it would cost 6000n per language and my idea for Lingatasoft was to start low and compoundly grow so that the total for Lingatasoft was much more expensive than the Linguasoft. Keep in mind that Lingausoft probably starts a minimum rank of 3

Lingatasoft Rank 1 : ..200n
Lingatasoft Rank 2 : +200n
Lingatasoft Rank 3 : +400n
Lingatasoft Rank 4 : +800n
Lingatasoft Rank 5 : +1600n
Lingatasoft Rank 6 : +3200n
Lingatasoft Rank 7 : +6400n

Total for Rank 7 : 12,800n Compared to the maximum of Rank 4 (which equates to about Rank 7) Linguasoft : 6000n
And further the Linguasoft is not capped like the Lingatasoft

Thoughts?

I'm confused here on a few things (and this is not to say that your idea is bad, I just am not following).

1) There's only four ranks of language. Why are there 7 ranks of Lingatasoft?
2) As above, there's four ranks, so the Linguasoft IS capped at 4. Does this mean something else?
3) As mentioned before, a datasoft is only information. It doesn't help you USE it, it just gives it to you. (I'm not really even sure datasofts allow languages, since it specifically says Knowledge skills, but that's not the point of this question.) So you could roll to see if you understood a sign, but if someone were speaking to you, you couldn't understand them unless you guessed at the spelling of the words they said and looked them up in the datasoft. Even a level 1 linguasoft is better than this, so why not just buy the linguasofts at low level and not worry about being fluent? In the end that'll be cheaper than going this route.

1) & 2) Linguasoft while being capped at 4 (normal Language max 3) actually reflects language expertise (not skill) and gets coupled with a character's Perception (cap 9) so for the full Skill 13d6 although I am not sure how Linguasoft allows the Rank 4 (Native) since technically you can only have 1 Native Language period -- and this appears to break that guideline -- but let us assume that Linguasoft is not actually giving you Native level expertise but instead Super-Expert (or something to that affect).

So why does LingataSoft have seven ranks because its the full package
Rank 1-2 = Expertise 1
Rank 3-4 = Expertise 2
Rank 5-6 = Expertise 3
Rank 7 = Expertise 3.5 (or LinguaSoft's 4)

Keep in mind you do not get to add your perception to LingataSoft like you do with LinguaSoft so it will never be as good as LinguaSoft out of the box or even fully advanced

3) Why -- because currently LinguaSoft requires a Skilljack and my character is not getting a Skilljack and there are others like my character that are not interested in a Skilljack for various reasons -- so I am looking at the aesthetic of this and asking -- what do these folks do and does it warrant a solution. The answer to the latter question IMO is yes it warrants a solution. So the natural question then is what solution was enacted by these folk that are not interested in a Skilljack that would be fair and does not unbalance the game. Thus my suggestion to this LingataSoft -- a software program that translates a specific language into another specific language -- is it better than LinguaSoft heck no but the best LingataSoft (12.8k) costs less than a basic Skilljack (20k) + the best LinguaSoft (6k) or course the secondary bonus of a Skilljack is not gained either so it balances

So here's where I'd come down on this if it were me.

As far as Native languages go, the Linguasoft is the native, you aren't, so no rules are broken there.

Re: linguasoft/lingatasoft
Here's something to think about for background setting-wise. "By 2047 technical advances in voice recognition, linguasofts, and speech-to-text-to-speech algorithms made it possible to write a business report verbally in English, have it transcribed into German and read back aloud in Japanese, all of which make it easier for corporations to reach consumers universally in an ever-shrinking digital world." Now, the Matrix crashed after that, but we're told in the current book that "Using the Matrix is an everyday task for most of the Sixth World" so the second crash wasn't as bad as the first.

What does this mean for a character? Translation is readily available. Speaking another language is not. Can you talk to that guy who only speaks Sperethiel? Yes. If you have a few minutes and you want to risk an occasional glitch, sure. Will he think you're a native speaker? Absolutely not. Can you have a real-time communication with him? Not exactly. Commlinks do have speech-to-text and text-to-speech (p. 267) and if it were me, I'd say translation too, so he could say something and you'd get the text in your language. You'd say something, he'd get Sperethiel. If the GM didn't want it to be quite that easy, making an accessory that does it would be the simple thing, and probably cost no more than 1000¥. That's all without a skilljack, and follows the lore and mechanics.

However, it doesn't let you speak the other language. For that, there is linguasofts, and it should stay just linguasofts. There's a lot of things in this world that not everyone can have, and that's fine. If you build a character who finds it inadvisable or impossible to use a skilljack, that's just the way it goes. Will you be handicapped? No. Will it be less than optimal? Of course, and that's fine. SR is all about the problems, after all, and how we deal with them.

Bingo @Falconloft your description in your second large paragraph is exactly what I am getting at or to. In yours (at the end) you are charging no more then 1000¥ for my LingataSoft (which is simply the accessory that does translation) but we do not know how many Ranks that equates to and I simply outlined the LingataSoft to have up to 7 Ranks but it could conceivable go higher and all those ranks equate to is how good that translation software is instead of going 1-2 = Expertise 1 we could say 1-3 = Expertise 1 and your max would then be Rank 12

So all I did over what you just reiterated was define that accessory that does translation calling it LingataSoft and then apply Ranks to it with a price per Rank that made LinguaSoft more cost effective but maybe it does not need to be more cost effective -- that kind of depends on what the ST wants to promote the most.

For instance if LinguaSoft owns both the software and the Skilljack hardware as a corporation then I can see them trying to make LinguaSoft be the goto product -- however if that corporation simply owns both LinguaSoft and LingataSoft I can see them wanting to make them both basically cost effective with perhaps LinguaSoft being the pricier of the two. If that were the case then let us say that we go with a 12 Rank max for LingataSoft then the new pricing structure would have the maximum price of LingataSoft being 6000¥ or a simple 500¥ per Rank -- we could drop to a lesser maximum rank but then the base price simple goes up to reflect this as the maximum price remains the same. Perhaps there is also an additional upgrade fee to encourage folks to buy the maximum Rank from get go rather than one Rank at a time kind of thing perhaps a 250¥ upgrade fee or 25% of the cost of the new Rank as an upgrade fee. However, the overall pricing structure is basically mutable once the basic product is defined and in place.

Okay so LinguaSoft does not "translate" it just lets you know what is being said and communicates it to your brain which does the translation. As most people that I have talked to generally in some way translate a none native language into their native language they just do it extremely fast if they know the secondary language very well and once you learn to do this with one language it is a much easier to do with a third and fourth and so on.

Now your langsoft is like (as you described) a dictionary that lets you know in the language you understand what a group of words means and reminds you of this each time one of its words comes up -- further it only lets you listen to a small set of another language and does not allow you to speak it.

Okay so LangSoft is the datasoft version of LanguaSoft and my LingnoeSoft (adjusted it) would be the knowsoft version. Which means LingnoeSoft would allow one to know the entirety of a single language and again would only let you listen to it and not let you speak it. These points are good to keep in mind I agree -- as homogenization of a system is important

Now again the only problem I have with any or all of this is again --

1) We have in the Shadowrun Verse Voice to Text
2) We have in the Shadowrun Verse Text Language A to Text Language B
3) We have in the Shadowrun Verse Text to Voice

How come no one in this advance era can connect 1 to 2 to 3 and have a translation program that can be put into your CommLink that allows you to:

1) Listen to Language B through the CommLink in Language A
2) Speak Language A through the CommLink in Language B

--- just like we have today or perhaps better than we have today

What do I mean by what we have today -- well today there is a delay -- I say something in Language A it is then repeated in Language B and vice versa no illusions here that I do not know Language B but I can still communicate in it even if I do not know it. It is just a bit slower than communicating normally. Now slightly better would be this happens as I speak -- aka as I am talking in Language A into through my CommLink I am sending it out in Language B and vice-versa

Next I have a problem with any Language being given a status of 4 as in order for that to actually happen one has to think in that language otherwise the closest you will probably get is 3.5 or maybe 3.99 as you will never be native unless it is the language you process with in your mind

To me LinguaSoft's ratings (or just Language ratings in general) should instead be that of the Skill ratings of 1 - 6 which gets added to your Perception just like any other skill works. As this actually makes sense and then we would not be having this functionality debate as things would be homogeneous in functionality. The problem is LinguaSoft introduces what I would consider an anomaly in that it gives you Language Expertise which does not equate to a Skill at all like everything else does. To me this could be easily fixed by:

1) You are granted 1 Single Native Language (or 2 if you buy the Dual Native Language positive quality) -- the Native Language reflects what you grew up speaking and the one you know intimately well to the point that you naturally think in that language. Note this makes your Native Language or Languages very important and/or special

2) All other Languages (no matter their source) have Skill Ranks 1-6 and function like any other skill -- this would go for Knowledge's as well however because they are so narrow (or specialized or inconsequential) I would reduce the cost of acquiring a Knowledge/Language to 1 Karma instead of 3 this way you could have a Knowledge/Language 3 for the current cost of a Knowledge/Language and Knowledge/Language 6 for double that -- then you would simply combine that with your associated Attribute when using it Logic with Knowledges and Perception with Languages

This eliminates the confusion and homogenizes the system and makes it much simpler and straight forward for the players to grasp and comprehend as everything works the same way -- except that one special caveat being your Native Language(s) which you just know -- aka one's Native Language does not have a rank or rating it is just what it is -- a language you know so well you never have to make a roll to comprehend it -- and it is a special thing that cannot be duplicated.

Side Note - being able to auto-comprehend your native language is btw a crock of crap as there are many native speakers that would have to make rolls so-to-speak to comprehend some things spoken in their own native language but for game sake I will call that a wash no need to split hairs on that one just mentioning it because I feel their concept for a Native Language is kind of wacky as well but if its restricted to only 1 or at most 2 special cases no big deal but with the caveat that it cannot be duplicated -- it either is or it is not -- there is no try ;)

just adding to the raw info, a new language is just 3 karma and a month (maybe less with a good teacher). Same for specialisation and expertise.

As for the languages rank (this part is my personal opinion...), I saw somebody with 1 rank as functional, sombody specialized as bilingual, and an expert as somebody with that can easily get a job as a translator, teacher or anything that would almost require a native level. Also an expert could pass for a native with a check...

Okay I read your edit Bedzone which leads me to ask these series of questions....

1) Is it true that we have Voice to Text software?

2) Is it true that we have Text to Voice software?

3) Is it true that we have written Language A to written Language B software?

These are 3 assumptions I have come to understand and I just want to validate that those 3 items are true.

Okay but you no answer my last set of questions??

Okay this is my last installment on this -- IMO the mechanics of what is just sux but then it is what it is -- as such its one of those areas where I say okay its just a lose-lose scenario and let it go and just accept that this is the way it is and the basic solution is to waste Karma on learning languages because in Shadowrun they are very important but the mechanics are horrible in dealing with it and the flavor for it is just not clear so here ya go hope this helps the flavor in some way ---
So if one looks at this closely and assuming its accurate they actually do have translation software for it says : You can take the spoken language A (Speech) - have it translate to write in Language B - then have it translate from Language B to directly spoken in Language C

Thus these are doing translations as part of doing the function -- so when writing it in Language B from spoken Language A is more than just Speech-Text its Speech to TranslatedText to TranslatedSpeech

The best explanation why using the above is not prolific is perhaps as follows:
Coupled with this ----
In short what I got from these is -- yes you could have a software program in your commlink that allowed you to speak in Language A and transmit that to someone in Language B BUT this would be noticed even more so than if you used a LinguaSoft because apparently even LinguaSoft does not grant you the actual ability to speak it like a true native -- yes you no longer have to make rolls but -- folks can or at least have a chance to tell that you did not learn the language for real but are using some kind LinguaSoft to allow you to speak the language. And the Commlink translation program would be an automatic they notice that kind of shyt.

The rest of my thoughts on this are mostly pointless because again it is what is apparently and the only real solution that I see is using at least 6 Karma per language (maybe 9 Karma for some) and with well over 6,500 languages becoming a master linguist is no longer an option for simply just getting by is going to be the order of the day.

Hope that info I dug up helps with flavor

Like I said its a whatever in my book now -- something I think is wrong but not something that appears anything can be done about on my end -- my conclusion from all of this is simply if I want to address the language issue for my character (or pretty much any character since using LinguaSoft seems to be frowned on by the native speakers) is to spend the excessive required Karma to learn it to Expertise 2 or 3 --- Note I would like to point out that Knowledges Skills which are semi-synonymous with Language Skills can be fully acquired for 3 Karma while a Language skill to fully acquire costs 9 Karma -- that just does not seem right as they both basically represent a form of Knowledge and this is what I mean by the excessive required Karma to learn a Language

Something as been bothering me when the opposed roll end up with no net hit on either side.

On p35 in the paragraph about opposed test it mentions this :I think you've been ruling in favor a defense (as it was in earlier version i think) while the book suggest to favor the "aggressor" in a tie. Are we using the book guideline for ties or are we houseruling them?

I was mainly thinking of some of the low dice influence attempt from Hotaru and Eunbyeol i think, like the current situation with the passengers which ended up being 1 hit vs 1 hit ( Not that the situation is very relevant since nothing was penalysed yet on one of those tie)

Cool, thanks for explaining that.

I just hope that those command can include more than one thing at a time.

Like telling the drone to reach and explode or a car to drive to some coordinates without having to specify every turns and stops.

Keep up the good work !!

How's everybody doing ?

just peachy

Personnally, the worst solution would be to retire the game. The story is great and I'd really like to see where it goes. It wouldn't be my first time changing the system in the middle of a game so I have no problem with that. And new systems in my opinion are always fun to try. If you'd like a suggestion for an easy enough system that can do cyber, magic and pretty much what you'd like, savage world would be my pick. (Make sure it's the SWADE edition)

I'll gladly change system. We tried SR6e I think its less clunky then 5e, but it is still clunky. If Savage Worlds can do the trick, then I'm fin by chanting to that system.

Here's a link for those that would like to take a look at it...https://thetrove.net/Books/Savage%20Worlds/_Core/SWADE/SWADE%20-%20Core%20Rulebook%20%28v5.4%29.pdf

I have no issue learning new system, however I am worried it may not solve much of the issues.

Firstly, adapting a new system not made for Shadowrun potentially could be as much time consuming as adapting the current one.

Second, and maybe most relevant, the setting itself may be the issue here. While I love the Shadowrun world, I actually never saw a SR game actually work properly unless it's a series of simplified runs. Once you start playing with the social and political, it quickly become an extremely complex and unforgiving world for the characters. Add to that the more limited mean of transferring information in pbp and you have players who start second guessing their every moves to avoid a faux pas that their character would either know better or is not ready to deal with the consequences.

T.l.d.r
I'll wait to have a look at the new system before deciding.

No matter the system, focusing more on character intentions rather than step by step action would be my suggestion, because it is impossible to expect the player to really understand all the details of what the character knows and notice naturally.

Okay I have not run SR6e but I ran and played its earlier versions as well as a myriad of other systems. I do not think SR6e is any better or worse then any other system but saying I also state that I have learned to accept a system for what it is and what it is not and either work within the boundaries of what it is and/or tweak the system to make it work for what I am striving to achieve.

First off we know that SR6e was a quick and incomplete solution to a problem perceived in the earlier versions okay so be it. However, I would be more inclined to fill that gaps in this version by either borrowing and/or modifying and/or enhancing those aspects from the earlier versions that would help to fill these gaps and make this game more complete. Heck the game designers may even borrow (or freely steal if you like a more precise term for it) the concepts and solutions we end up coming up with. Having helped other games in fixing their designs I think this one has solid potential.

Conversely as has been pointed out... SR as is stands works better with a cohesive group tasked for one-shot missions. This is something I understood when I designed my games as this helped to limit the world issues that currently plague this game. Things characters ought to know that they are either unaware of or just forgot about.

Personally I do not care what system we end up choosing to use as to me all of them have their pros/cons however I like the other players do strongly feel that this story has extreme potential as such I would greatly much enjoy continuing forward with it. If you are done playing by the incomplete rules of SR6e and are ready to expand well you have a game designer in your corner willing to dedicate time with you in fleshing out those areas where issues actually reside and coming up with balanced guidelines that allot for these issues and yet maintain the purpose of the game which is to make it fun to play. Which generally means enough crunchiness that maintains the fences needed while enough gates to allow for the freedom that is needed. It is a delicate balance and the more current (or realistic) the world is the harder it is to maintain that balance.

Look forward to seeing where you choose to go because in the end the game must be fun for the Story Teller as well and if it has become more of a chore than fun we need to alleviate that issue at all costs. Unless of course you choose to close it down ;)

I like option 2 but have no ideas on another system but I'd be more than willing to learn one

I'm in an IRL group where we play Shadowrun with Blades In The Dark rule adaptation. Is good for crew play, might not be the best system for play-by-post

I also google around and found a FATE adoptation

I would be fine with swapping systems, but I'm not a big fan of Savage Worlds at all. I plan on never playing that system again if I can help it. That's just my opinion, and if they group ultimately decides to go that direction, I would not have any hard feelings for that decision.

Personally, I'd like to play in a Sixth World game sometime. BitD would be interesting but I'm not sure how you'd hack it to be SR. It's been a long time since I've played FATE. It's not one of my favorites either, but I'd give it a shot.

Ooo Fate would be rather tricky I would think - not undoable just tricky. Do not know about Sixth World. Still I really feel that SR6e Augmented would work just fine ;) but as stated earlier I am willing to go with the flow on this.

Honestly, there's not really anything that 6e is missing; it just doesn't fit everyone's idea of Shadowrun. No edition ever has. Trying to 'fix' it would just result in a horrible hodge-podge of house rules that try to change the world more than they do the system. (See the linguasoft conversation for an example of why that's not a good idea.)

Not really I think you have taken the meaning a bit too far or too short -- basically as has been pointed out the current guidelines have been made more general in scope but the current problem is that it is in fact missing various guidelines that would allow it to be more complete for all types -- this has no relation to matching everyone's idea of Shadowrun but more implementing those elements that are part of the current shadowrun in a manner that adhere's to the current paradigm but creates a minimal amount of additional guidelines so that those things that folks would like to do can be done within a pre-outlined set of guidelines

For example there are currently no guidelines covering how one creates a spell from scratch which is obviously something that has to exist within the game since we already have some spells and yet the few that we do have do not cover all the aspects that one might want to cover with spells. Further I am 100% positive that there are several other aspects to the present game that actually exist but have not been addressed. This one I just know more about since that is the class type I am playing.

If that were a valid critique, it'd be a critique of nearly every system with spells that was ever made, not SR.

Well then in that case I think we ought to go with SWADE its as good as any other system out there

I think it is telling that Shadowrun has so many adaptations. The system sucks but the world is awesome. Hacking and house ruling to a new system can be even more cumbersome, especially if you want the keep all the details.

That is why I am advocating for a more abstract system like FATE or FATE accelerated, to go from a rules-heavy to a rules-light system. But in the end, it is the GM call, not mine.

GenSys might be viable and there is Mini Six which seems to be favored by some and JAGS RPG. The key will be getting a game system that flows nicely and easily supports the feel of Shadowrun. Yeah Generic systems are supposed to support all genres but frankly having played various versions from rules heavy/complex to rules light/simple I find some generic systems work better for some genres than they do for others. Also I do not think we want necessarily rules light but more rules simple. Some generic systems have lots of rules to cover all possibilities but when used for a specific genre much of it is not used however it is there to make it easier should you need something in that area. If the playing rules are simple that is where the win comes in. Character generation however is a one shot deal and once done its done, which is why when modifications to DnD2e and beyond I made most of the changes affect character gen rather than game play implementation. So for ease here is a list of those suggested.

I am currently playing FATE (and have played other systems similar to it) I while its interesting I am not sure it would work all that well for Shadowrun. The Gensys dice concept I find somewhat interesting and I am currently running a version of that right now. Not sure about the rest as I have not actually played with those. Still they might be quite viable.

1) SWADE (Savage World Adventure Edition)
2) FATE or FATE Accelerated
3) Blades in the Dark
4) Technoir
5) Gensys
6) Mini Six
7) JAGS RPG (Just Another Game System)

Is this the time to pop my Savage World cherry?

SW, BitD, and Gensys are not as rules light as they claim to be. I like BitD, but there's a learning curve there, and it's not going to be a quick one. Gensys could probably do it, but the dice... Technoir is interesting. bit of a learning curve there too, but nowhere near as much as the others.

Sixth World is maybe the way to go if we want pbta stuff, but I've never run it, so I can't say that 100%.

Note: One of the biggest items I think that is not going to be handled in any other system Generic or not (and I could be wrong on this) -- is the concept of Essence and how it ties so tightly into Cybernetics versus Magic.

I wonder -- what if we did a combo system -- tweak the character generation for SR6e just enough to allow it to use another game system's mechanics. That way the elements specific to Shadowrun portrayed within the character generation are not lost but we end up using a simpler game mechanic to play the game. Or just yank the concept of Essence and merge that into the game system of choice.

I would be more than willing to help with either of these endeavors assuming there is not already a Hack out there for the Generic system we choose that implements Shadowrun

This covers some of the Shadowrun settings but appears to missing the magic
Savage Worlds Interface Zero 2.0
To be fair there is a 3.0 but it was unclear to me if it is out yet or not and unclear if the magic aspect of this is out as well

This seems to be complete not sure how good though Gensys Shadowrun Hack

So basically unless we want to do our own complete conversion to one of the systems listed we are going to either need to find a Hack that is complete or at least mostly complete and then go with that and adjust where needed.

I think Essence is probably the easiest thing to add, since it's just basically keeping track of how many mods you have installed. Magic on the other hand is going to need more of a look. Going back to your statement about needing to able to build in missing pieces, Sixth World has most of the basic spells, but if we ever needed to add any in, it's just a matter of taking the SR spell, describing it, adding tags and you're done.

That Genesys hack looks like it improves several areas over standard Genesys that would make creating characters much less generic-feeling. It could be a good option too, but am I just missing the spell list, or doesn't it have one?

If you read this with the Green augmentations this will help you with that.

Also your statement assume we can use the Essence outlined within SR6e guidelines as is. Which is perfectly fine on the surface but what if their is equipment that exists in the new system that does not already have an Essence loss value attached to it within SR6e then we have to come up with one. Further there is how does the Loss of Essence affect the other games mechanics when it comes to Magic will this need to be handled as well and if so how? -- these were the things I was talking about mainly. If the concept of Essence does not exist within the destination game it has to be interpolated into that system in a balanced manner.

I'm not a fan of the magic as presented in base Genesys. It suffers the same way force powers do in the Sw stuff. At the low levels that's most usable, it's pretty bland. You can add effects to customize it, but those will fail most of the time unless we get to start with a good chunk of extra XP. That cuts down the amount of advancement we can do.

As far as Essence goes, you're making it more difficult than it needs to be. Every system already has some sort of bonus/penalty system in place, attaching Essence to that is pretty simple and uses the systems already existing balance.

Actually not every magic system has some sort of bonus/penalty system in place, I can probably name at least a half-dozen systems that have no such mechanic. I cannot speak to how GeneSys implements their magic system as I have not looked into that as of yet since it has not been determined whether we will be going in that direction or not. Are you saying you are fairly familiar with the GeneSys magic system enough to outline how the mechanic of Essence would be implemented within its magic system? If so can you share that methodology? Further are you familiar enough with all the potential additional equipment (if any) that GeneSys might add to the game that would not already be covered by SR6e Essence reduction values?

I didn't say every magic system. Just every system. In 6e, Essence reduces Magic, and Magic is used to:

-- Learn spells at character creation (MAG * 2). I'm assuming that Genesys has a way to deal with this one. I didn't see it, but I wasn't looking at the time cuz I usually don't play mages. If it doesn't, it's going to be problematic in Genesys as there's only 10 or so ACTUAL spells (they're really types). Instead, we could say that each spell Augment counts as its own thing to learn, so it makes it seem like there's more spells, and makes mages more unique.

-- Spellcasting. 1 essence loss equals 1 magic loss. The magic ability is used for other things, so best to leave that alone, but skills are maxed out at five, so each essence loss can simply lower the cap on magic abilities by one. No essence, no magic skills.

Which is what I was saying -- it would need to be interpolated -- as I highly doubt that GeneSys actually has something that works just like Essences does in SR6e and maybe not even something similar but that will come more to light if we end up going that route.

Here'S my two cents... The story is great (thanks to Bedzone), and shadowrun is simply a setting. We don't need to copy it, only to be inspired by it. One of my favorite setting is Rifts, but the rules were hell to play with. In the last years I have had the chance to adapt it to a lot of other rulesets (Gurps was the first and Savage Worlds the most recent...). Same goes with Darksun (from ad&d 2nd ed). I never had to completely change the rules to play in other rulesets, we only had to follow the spirit of the setting, and everytime we had fun. What I saying is, with this group, you can choose any system and I sure we'll have fun.

Doesn't need to be any more complicated than above. But, yes, deadpool, I agree. Changing less is always preferable to changing more, especially when that more is arbitrary (as anything we actually change would be).

Okay so is there a particular version of the PbtA (Powered by the Apocolypse) Sixth World you are looking at -- I found potentially 3 versions -- SixthWorldv32, SixthWorldRevised, and TheSprawl

Also it appears from what I have seen thus far is that Sixth World is specifically a Dungeon World by Powered by the Apocolypse Hack will we need those books as well?

Welp, good thing I have free time to read books

So we are going with Sixth world v32?

https://www.reddit.com/r/PBtA/comments/8kdo8o/sixth_world_shadowrun_pbta_pdf_release/

I have translated Missy to Sixth World and updated her character sheet

Just a note. v32 is NOT by the same people. It is a rework that credits the original author, but it's a rework because the author (evilbob65535) didn't like the way they did stuff in the other one, so it has some good improvements (like putting back in a move that got accidentally left out and then referenced all the way through v26), but it's weirdly sloppy in a couple areas. The only one that is probably worth mentioning is spells. v26 lets you create your own spells, and has a system for doing so. v32 has a pre-set list which is rather small and says 'create your own using these as guidelines' but doesn't explain how to do it. I'm not going to be casting, so I don't really mind either way, but it might matter to someone else.

Thanks Falconloft so it appears we out to use v26 and v32 in a sort of combination ghads where are the editors ;)

I was not planning too -- I was going to use v32 for most of the stuff and v26 for anything that v32 forget to include

Ah okay

Okay, so given that, v26 is missing a move called Drop Science (referenced on pages 6 and 39.)

This is the wording from v32:

DROP SCIENCE​: ​When you consult your knowledge of a specific topic or determine facts about your environment,​ roll +Craft.
-- On 10+, the GM will tell you give you a useful, specific detail about the situation, or ask you to make something up.
-- On a 7-9, the GM chooses one:
---- They’ll tell you something interesting, but it’s on you to make it useful.
---- They’ll ask you to make up something interesting, but then they’ll tell you what else you’ve heard that complicates things.

And from the Digest Edition, v1.3:

DROP SCIENCE: When you consult your knowledge of a specific topic or determine facts about your environment, roll +Skilled.
-- On 10+, the GM will tell you give you a useful, specific detail about the situation.
-- On 7-9, the GM will give you a general impression.

---

The v32 version seems to be more in line with the other moves from the system, but that's just my opinion. Given the fact that the move is referenced exactly thrice, it might be dropable. The 'determine facts about your environment' part is already covered under Check the Situation on page 4 anyway. We could easily just add one more question to the list. "What do I know or have I heard about X that seems dependable?"

Just confirming, we will be using v26 ? Any link for it ?

thank you. I'll give Missy a rework

Should be able to do my character today.

I do feel a bit hampered as a spellcaster when going from 12 spells down to 4. I haven't found how to get more spells

Quick question, in the part where we choose our gear, how many items can we select ? Or do we buy from that list with our starting funds ?

...starting funds 3500 nuyens...
Clint Westwood
Not 100% complete but that's a good start. (used the same character sheet...)

I'm procrastinating on reading Sixth World properly so I can see if I can get the same feel with the character, but I should be able to finish this weekend. One potential Shadowrun game is enough for me :P

Sixth world draft for Hotaru in the (overwritten) character sheet

Since Bedzone's letting us tweak stuff, You could recreate the spells you had using the Spellcrafting rules on page 65. If you want, I could help with that.

I think the only tweak I'm going to do to mine is to give her mystic armor (armor 1, concealable). I'll do without the other stuff.

okay trying to get to the redesign but have not had much time since the game shift will try to get on it asap though it takes precedence after the RL stuff ;)

gooddy

BedzoneII first and foremost are we creating new characters restricted to a basic new character but as similar to our old characters as possible using the new system -- or are we just converting the old characters to the new system and we are not worried about the restrictions given to a new creation in the new system -- I ask because I find that creating a new similar but restricted character in the new system would be a major reduction from what the old character was.

That aside I have noted some major differences and want to understand what you are okay with.

1) The standard spell-caster (be it Mage or Shaman) in Shadowrun does both Sorcery and Summoning -- in the new system these features appear to be separated and you do either one or the other. Are we to combine these conceptually aspects together to reflect what exists in Shadowrun ... aka ignore this separation -- that was my inclination but want to check

1b) If we are melding these 2 Archetypes what would the final Archetype look like or is that just an unnecessary dive to deep into detail since we are converting what was into what will be and not creating a character restricted to a basic new character in this new system?

2) The standard spell-caster can summon any type of spirit that they dynamically choose on the fly but in the new system you must initially pick 3 spirits that you can summon -- now while I can see using a more limited list than carte-blanche I feel just 3 seems like an extreme reduction -- are you going to be using the carte-blanche or some other number of spirits that we can initially summon?

2b) Is there a mechanic - did not see it yet in the new system for increasing the number of different spirits you can know how to summon?

3) Are we allowed to recreate the spells we knew doing our best to pull from the meager examples that currently exist in the Revised information -- or can we go to the Powered by Apocalypse Dungeon World to find more examples to pull from in recreating these spells

4) Lastly in doing this conversion should I assume anything not already created within the Revised guidelines we are to outline in detail and present to you for final approval?

A few questions...
-Will we use fixed or rolled damage ?

-Can I modify the Ares Predator V [range s/m, dmg 4/1d8+1, sa, AP 1, ammo 3]?

Ruger Super Warhawk [range s/m, dmg 4/1d8+1, sa, AP 2, ammo 2], used in a pair it becomes Paired Ruger Super Warhawk [range s/m, dmg 4/1d8+1, sa/bf, AP 2, ammo 4]

Personally, I like fixed damage for NPCs and variable for PCs. Little less swing, but not too predictable.

,Lol, you're right Bedzone !!
In my defense, I didn't read any character threads except for TheVagrant's. I wanted to meet the characters before reading their posts...

Hello all. Glad to be here. I'm going to start putting together a character. Elf Street Doc. I saw the discussion in the Game Tavern. I am glad to say I am looking at version 26 if that's still the right one. If not let me know.

cash roll...3d6x400

OK, Gon Arai, aka. m0th3r bl155, the elf street doc is done and just waiting approval.

Help! Where do I find v26? I found the neocities website and v32 on google docs, but Im striking out finding the one were using.

Here is the link I got mine from.

I am going street samurai. I will get a sheet in tomorrow. Maybe tonight if I get inspired

Character submitted. Don't have bonds yet
Anyone up to bond with a troll street samurai?

Oh right...bonds. I need to establish bonds too.

I have these two that could work dreamblade. Maybe we ran into each other before.

__________ came back for me.

Even with all this chrome, ________ still treats me like a real person.

I am also missing my bond, but I expect that we can establish them rather quickly.

Very short: Missy is a mage from Germany, who has been living in BDSM parlor Hong Kong. We paused the game here she had stolen a boat from the Hong Kong marina and sailed to Tokyo.

I’ve never played a Face type character (like, ever) but it looks like a niche we could use. I’m thinking of a very attractive, very gender ambiguous Eurasian elf. That would help them expand their repertoire of disguise/impersonation possibilities. I figure they probably have at least a couple of identities floating out there with their own contacts and such. Games within games. :)

Does that work?

I haven't done my bonds yet either, but I also haven't met the other characters in the game yet, so I'll fill mine in as I go, if that's alright.

General info on Domino the Face is in. Still working on debts and bonds. I didn’t take the cybereyes from the kit (elven vanity) x I was wondering if there"s some way to have language modules that I could pop in and out?

I guess being unofficially deported with a bit of authority is better than being officially deported with no status at all. XD

Btw, is there a problem with adjusting my contacts to be local to where I'm going rather than far away? I could come up with three more, but given that they really haven't seen much direct use...

I didn't want all the staff as contacts. Only Joe is particularly friendly to me. The rest are flavour.

Oh, and the weasel shaman is my other contact. He is only sort of staff.

Should I plan out my contacts, or can we just retcon them as we go?

In the melee weapon stats, damage is x+hard...
what is hard ? is it the combat stat ?

I think that's leftover from a previous iteration of a PbtA game where Hard was one of the basic stats. I think we're just using the other number (I think...).

Where are you seeing Hard mentioned in damage stats? I'm not finding it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see it. Yeah, that looks like it should be + Combat. Combat is your skill in all manner of fighting, both armed and unarmed.

Just want to mention the two Shadowrun audio books that I have heard / is hearing

Shadowrun Legends
https://www.audible.com/pd/Shadowrun-Legends-Audiobook/B086R7YGZL?ref=a_library_t_c5_libItem_&pf_rd_p=91ba6faf-5e4f-494c-abef-d663c65bee07&pf_rd_r=Y2YHZCG6152PZDGBXG93

Shadowrun: Fire & Frost
https://www.audible.com/pd/Shadowrun-Audiobook/B07QWN71WT?ref=a_library_t_c5_libItem_&pf_rd_p=91ba6faf-5e4f-494c-abef-d663c65bee07&pf_rd_r=794VCZRRRZHQTYVHQ2H2

Jack is fine. If he can have a fake I.D. it would still be Jack. He's not smart enough to answer to a new name. He would probably go with John Campbell on the I.D., but goes by Jack.

I'm at home this week (until I find a safe sitter for my son) so I won't be around much. My apologies.

Put me where you need me.

I don't know what happen, but I lost my motivation for this game. I am trying, but bear with me

I think I'll take a break. As we discussed earlier, the conversion from SR6e to Sixth World, the mage got severely nerfed in it's capability. Perhaps that is also a factor, the Missy I started with is much different now and I can't find the right mindset for her.

Does that make sense?

It bothers me that I have this disconnect to my character. I can't tell you why Missy don't feel like my character anymore, it just is.

Your analysis of Missy is right. She messes with people's minds and spirits. She is not a combat mage, there is plenty of other characters in the group that can bring the pain. I do realize that she is the key to the mystic/spirit plot, and that makes me feel even worse about this situation.

I'm going to try to reconnect with Missy. I know very little about Japanese mythology and mysticism, but she has been to Japan before.