Success and failures in PbP

As many of you have been around for a while and in many games, others having only been on GP a bit but run into realization moments, and I'm sure a number of you with plenty of PbP experience before GP or on other sites right now, I pose this (question comes from when I was on Modifier Podcast):

What have you noticed is good/necessary for a long lasting PbP game? What are common things that lead to games dying soon? What are rarer things that are likely to kill a PbP game?

Funny you should mention it, I was just writing up a little guide on just that subject. I'm not at my computer right now but I'll post some notes shortly.

I haven't been on GP for as long or as in many games as others, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

• Intuitive GM and player aids. Now, GP seems to be doing pretty well with those (tools, character sheets, notes, etc.), but there are still areas where improvement could be made (see the threads about the touch and flat-footed AC and class skills for PF sheets for example). Another good example is that one of my players did not notice he could add a separate description for his feats/class features/racial features/etc. so he ended up cramming everything in the field meant for the ability's name... Clearly, this implies that the notes/description field is not as obvious as it should be.

• Good participation. I've noticed that the slower the post count gets in a game, the less it seems to encourage others to post. If a game slows down, it might signal the beginning of the end... This might be the time for a GM to inject new blood in his game.

• Setting the mood. Don't be shy about elaborate description of the surrounding or NPCs. You're on a PBP after all, so you won't get complain from players wishing to skip the descriptions and go back to gameplay... Find some appropriate soundtracks on youtube and link them with your posts, your players will appreciate them. Images also work well for that. Work on some players handouts and include them in your posts. You can probably find the illustrations for the module you're running online somewhere...

Players is what makes the game great.

I would have to say participation would be the biggest key to the demise of a game.

In general I like how Gamerplane runs. I think its the perfect way to be able to play a game everyday.

Low activity level is the number 1 killer, second to players not subscribing to the main game threads. It's why I will skip a player's turn if they don't post within 24 hrs and it's their turn in combat (I give them a double turn next round to compensate); it's why I will happily let one player whose posting actively for a couple days drive the plot forward (instead of waiting days for others to post); it's why I rapidly replace 'fading' players who are inactive for 2 or more weeks (but I always welcome them back if they do return; once you are in one of my games, you are 'in it' as long as I'm still running it).

There are rare cases, my Red Hand of Doom is one. While I've kept activity at a steady level, it dropped off pretty harshly in Mar/Apr, but my group is a dedicated group (presumably held here by other active games), and so now that I'm back on top of things, I'm happy to see the game is still alive and well (the same is true of my other games, by Red Hand has been much longer running).

So, along with keeping the game itself active, an activity community around the game is good too (a good sign that a player may start to flake is if they are *only* playing in your game; players in many games are checking the site regularly and so won't drop off as easily).

For me character development is key each with their own story arcs running throughout a game. Make a player really care about their character and they always come back for more.

-Post regularly. If you know you won't be able to post let everyone know.
-Not every post needs to be a masterpiece, but when it's appropriate to do so, take your time to write something good.
-Don't neglect the OOC thread, just like at a table half the fun is in the chat!
-Pre-game; think about a character which will be fun, don't worry about whether it's cliche or not.
-If the adventure takes an unexpected turn, roll with it!
-Make an effort to ensure your writing is of good quality. If people enjoy reading what you write they will keep coming back.
-Agree when you start what will happen if a player doesn't post; they get left behind, the GM takes over, etc.
-If the game falls into a bit of a lull add something unexpected to spice things up. It could be a random encounter or obstacle, an NPC from a character's past, a new player, whatever.

An unexplained decrease in posting frequency is the killer. I've found that if something happens and a break occurs, then people get out of the habit of checking to see if they are "up". It is very difficult to regain the momentum once lost.

Maybe there is a strategy to recover from diminished participation, involving the GM direct messaging inactive players you remind them that they are needed. But there is an obvious negative feedback to a GM when activity dwindles.

Best just be honest with your players and ask them periodically for feedback if you sense a change. Don't just assume, I suppose.

As a GM:
- Having an active player's participation drop off can really hurt. I have guidelines as to what I expect as far as posting frequencies and I need to do a better job enforcing them. Never liked the thought of replacing a player but it's almost unfair to the other participants not too if it's hurting the game.

- As Candi mentioned, having established players in your game helps. I've been on the site for a while now (October 2014) and I know who I can count on when I'm running a game. I have a game that I'm running now that was specifically for newbies to the site, lost 2 out of the 5 already, and it sucks because the other three are active and want to play. (Hat tip to Qralloq for filling in so we can keep going!)

- Certain things that work well at a table just don't play out well in PbP. A combat that lasts four or five rounds when you're playing face to face is great, but after four pages of posts, and a weeks worth of time I think players might be ready to move onto something else. Still learning this one and I have a situation that will occur in one of my games that will test this a bit - hope it works out.


As a Player:
- Posting schedules. I don't have access during the day and at times I'll get on in the evening to check a game and find there's been two pages of postings where my character didn't participate. Great for the game (and I'm not suggesting that it should be otherwise or changed in any way) but it kills my flow so I end up doing the old "My Character Follows Everyone Else" post and wait for a chance to be relative. Repeat this for a couple of days and I'm basically out of the story at this point and my enthusiasm drops a bit. (I eventually jump in where I can though)

- GM prodding, especially during combat and scenes where there is a lot going on. The old, "Oh, didn't realize it was my turn in the initiative order" thing. Particularly useful when your involved in multiple games. A brief status description of what's going on when the GM posts is REALLY helpful to me.


General Bad Things:
- Too many players. Too many chances someone will slow things down, too many chances other players will get lost as to what's happening (which happens to me a lot), too much time (real life time) between actions, etc.

Yeah, I agree that the OOC thread and general atmosphere of the game are good to keep the momentum up. How long the game lasts mostly depends on how invested the players are in the game, just like in normal tabletop!

I don't agree at all with the GM having to tell players what is going on ALL the time though. As a GM I reread previous posts and character sheets many times, and I expect my players to do the same if they want to remember what is goin' on.

//Handle

For me it's all about the story, If the game system is focused on combat I get why it's there, I'll slash and shoot with the best of my ability and plan out how to do that just fine but for the most part I look at RPGs like movies that unfold in the mind's eye one scene at a time. I don't have to be the guy who storms the castle and gets the plot quest item. Being the cowardly rogue who does something selfless and brave to save the party member or the Wizard who steps in to save the fighter from a monster with a well placed and very lucky kick so he doesn't die, those character persona break points are what I like to see and be a part of, those little snippets in time that to be define the character, not the talents/feats/levels/gear that time the group walks into the tavern and the fighter has five kids around him since the mother split and he didn't know what else to do besides take care of him, the cleric's faith in his deity wavering over things he's seen in the adventures versus their teachings.

It's great to know the rules or how the system can work for you mechanically but I've been mostly interested in what isn't in the rules that's based off roleplay that make the GM and players go 'Yes, THAT happens! It's canon!'

Agreed - every post would be too much and there should be an expectation that the players are actually paying attention to what has been going on. I guess what I was trying to get across is that an occasional status message, especially during combat situations, can really help to make sure everyone is on the same page as to what is going on. It's easy for me as a GM to leave out details and just assume everyone else is thinking the same thing that I am.

For me, the main driver keeping games going is long term consistent posting. Doesn't have to be frequent; more than once a day is a bonus for sure, but not vital. Long gaps will kill the enthusiasm though. I have one game I was super excited about, but has now been idle for a month due to missing players and a busy GM. Its tough to maintain enthusiasm for a story under those circumstances.

PbP is a long game format. One cannot expect narrative to move forward in the way it does in a face to face game. It just takes time. Once you get used to a slower pace, it just comes down to a slow burn of consistent posts.

Another thing I've noticed is that PbP lends itself to certain types of games over others. PbP seems great for a narrative, character centric game. Lots of space for people to dialog and give their characters personality. PbP is less well suited to combat heavy, tactical and traditional dungeon crawl style games. I think this may have a lot to do with the slow pace of PbP.

Forever this. With having a kid recently some of my games lapsed a few weeks, up to a month for some, and it's very easy for things to stall out. Especially if in the time another player goes dormant. I'm not too shy about replacing inactive players after about two weeks, any longer than that and I worry about the game as a whole stalling.

Plus new recruits in a longer campaign can help breath new life into the story and change things up enough to renew interest.

I agree with all of this. I'd also like to add that I've never done PBP gaming before up until a couple of months ago, and I have never been more invested in a game or more interested in participating until I was part of a huge in character OOC thread for a star wars game. it was hilarious and fun to keep contributing to and it really helps keep the banter going in the game. I think once you have players invested like that, they want to entertain the other players and that can keep posting up and keep interest going.

I think the problem I have hit with pbp is that when you are weighing options for life, like me for instance. Work is a killer, kids and family are full steam with school and life, etc. It becomes easy to say I can "Drop this" and get back to it. The hard part is getting back to it once you cleared it out, even if the idea was to temporarily put something on hiatus. So now I want to plug it back into my schedule of things to cover on a daily basis, but when your head is spinning already, it's easy to just skip it.

It's not the games, the people, the site, it's just easier then say backing out of a table group due to the anonymity of the internet.

Life usually comes in waves for everyone. You might go full bore at this for a while, then find yourself trying to just squeeze it in enough to keep it going. I myself don't like that personally. I have what I feel could/would/should be a pretty epic game on here, and if I can't devote myself to it, and risk doing it half-hearted, I put it on hold. The problem is finding a way to squeeze that level back into it. Perhaps I set the bar too high, or it's just the way I am, but I found it hard to go back to it as I fear the same trend will happen. I will get too busy with everything else for it to go how I want.

Now the beauty of this format is you can operate like this to an extent, but perhaps the best approach is to not bite off more than you can chew. Like my "epic" game for instance, perhaps if I had started it more casually, and less epic then I wouldn't feel like it always needs to be "epic". (I use the term epic loosely, as that is an opinion based judgement.)

Casual seems to be the way to go on here. Not taking it too seriously, and be prepared for lose of interest, life interference, etc when running game and conversely playing a game on here.

I'm in your game, and I will tell you that it is no more or less epic, from a player perspective, than any other games I'm in on GP (and you know my enthusiasm for that character and that game). Epic is as epic does. In any game, in any format, every moment can't be epic. And when it takes two days to have a relatively innocuous conversation, or close to a week to complete a combat encounter, the game is not going to "feel epic".

That is what I mean about the slow burn. PbP games can be just as epic and significant as face to face games, they just don't always feel like it all the time. IMHO, PbP lends itself quite well to in-depth character development and growth, which we had in your game!

The reason your game stalled is because you didn't update it for weeks. I think because you thought you had to put so much in to each post. You don't. Especially when you have engaged players who enjoy interacting in character. Now we've lost two players; both have gone dormant on the site, so the game is even more difficult to get up and running again.

However, I'll tell you right here and now: If you made a post in that game, all the rest of us who are still active here would be all over it!

That's my point in a way. I put more expectation on myself then I should of, right. So I feel like I am not delivering if I don't deliver it the way I want it to. That's a personal problem for me, and because I have this format, where I can write things out and each post should be this or that, then I find myself struggling to make each post what "I" feel like it should be. If that makes sense.

My point is to kind of share that out there. If others find themselves thinking too big, or that it could become a monster on you as the DM, then it probably will. Take it down a notch and don't make any extra stress on it.

I think it's easier at a game table to do things and think about them later. Like "oh man, it would of been cooler if I did X instead of Y" but what's done is done. While I am composing for a game on here, I don't feel like I have an excuse for that, despite that fact that I am not going to hit that mark even if I spend days on each post. There is always other things.

That's not really the problem in most cases though. For me for instance it was the "life is in the way" or this, only temporarily, but then finding a way to slide it back in when you have moved it out of it's "slot" if you will, isn't the easiest.

That game will play again, my daughter is out of school in a week and half, and job hunt is still on for a more reasonable job. So I am again trying to strike that balance of work vs play, and real life is winning for a while now.

@DMKiado

honestly i would have been happy to just done the whole campaign int the fricking tavern. I think the group could have just role played the whole time you were gone honestly. we pretty much did for a long time before you even got involved. reason we stopped was 3 people were gone you and the other 2.

which brings me to the point of the common curiosity of saying bye. I hate waiting some times. atleast you gave us heads up

and yes i would def play still if you started again. that game was my favorite... because you let us rp as much as we wanted.

Something I have consistently failed at on PbP: Learning a new system as a player. There's been three games now where I wanted to jump in, but didn't know the system well. I've had to drop all three.

I'm fine with teaching a system. I've got multiple players in my Star Wars games who are new to the system, and I've really enjoyed pushing the knowledge to them.

So this begs the question: what can I as the site developer do to help with this? What can we as a community do? Is it about building guides? Live chat/voice sessions? With irvanovich having graciously donated a mumble server, we could maybe setup "learn a system" sessions? I like the option in the other thread about getting new site members involved: adding flags to a game indicating they're "New to system" friendly and "New to PbP" friendly.

I think setting up game guides would be really good, as long as copyright law doesn't get in the way. Anything with an SRD licence should be fine, but the Star Wars game that Tuk mentioned would be out, as far as I know. You can't really make a guide to a system if you aren't allowed to reproduce the rules.

Great punt. I would like to get more general guides going in the Guides forum though. Stuff like general GM tips, general player tips, combat, handling certain situations, etc.

At another site, there are volunteer GMs for different systems. There is an "I'd like to learn [this system]" thread for each supported system, and people can apply for tutorial play (which is just a very short and simple story, usually played solo). GMs take the jobs by volunteering, so people can learn systems. I'd be up for teaching the basics of FATE or Pathfinder this way.

Re: The epic games discussion. It's anecdotal, but I will admit - I've dropped games because they were the kind of game where every day or so the GM was going to be dropping a wall of text. The only game with a high text content I am still in that I joined in the Star Wars game mentioned above, because the characters and players are engaging enough and the whole thing is fun enough that I carve out the time (every day or so) to catch up. That's an exceptional feature of that group, that overrides the drawback (ie, time) that goes hand in hand with high density posts.

In my games I keep things slim, and let interaction drive the deeper story (instead of relying on lots of descriptive stuff, for example). I think it works ok.

maybe once in a while we get a volunteer to GM a "training game" once enough people have expressed interest in learning a system?

I've thought that would be an interesting feature. Players requesting games, i.e., signing up before there is a gamemaster - this could be done with a Games Tavern post, of course, but it would seem (to me) to be more of an imposition if it wasn't built in or otherwise "officially" encouraged.

A gamemaster would then volunteer to run a game and system of the players choosing. If 4 people have signed up in the past week to play an Apocalypse World game in the style of Fallout 3, then there you go: Jump in and teach 'em how.

Maybe a "Players Seeking Games" forum does the trick.

This is a really smart idea. darthoingoboingo: part of what triggered me leaving your Shadowrun game was the fact that I was the obvious slow man in the group. Everyone else had a fair handle on things, and I just didn't. So having a game run for the specific purpose of teaching a system, where all the players in the game are unfamiliar, sounds really interesting to me.

I'd be happy to run such a game for FF Star Wars or D&D 5e (those are the only systems I have a really strong handle on right now).

I think the training game suggestion is really good, and I'm gonna look into codifying it somehow. Let's take the discussion of it to a thread for that topic though.

This has me thinking... "you let us rp as much as we wanted" meaning... you pc's just went at it and posted all willy nilly? Sometimes several times in a day or more kind of thing? I'm curious because if a few pc's go off like this and someone who wasn't in the rp finally shows up only to find that there is 30 posts already made while they were away... would they be upset at missing out? Would they be bummed how far the story line would have moved ahead without them? Curious about this aspect because allowing PC's to go ahead and have free reign with making posts is always an option but I suspect all pc's need to be all in or not at all.

PBP games can die off if the rules system being used is too complex. Trying to incorporate D&D into PBP seems pretty daunting considering a mele can take hours in face to face gaming. I can't imagine running it in PBP. I have been using The Window rpg system for about 15 yrs and swear by it. Its rules light but there is enough there to easily guide any game. The onus is on the players to move the game forward with role playing heavily and dice rolling minimally. Perfect for PBP gaming in my opinion. My point is... mentioning at some point in the welcome thread that using a rules heavy system can really kill your game. Using a rules light system or no system at all (Free form rpg'ing) is highly recommended. This comes from experience running a game that ran for around 3 yrs long ago and in that game, we used free form. As GM, I just guided them along with story inserts and making sure to remind them that they cannot post actions for another player for example "I punch Joe and knock him out". Uh... no. You don't. What you do though is make an attempt to hit Joe with a goal of knocking him out. It now comes down to dice or perhaps depending on the player... Joe openly accepts being knocked out and that player makes a post saying as much: "Billy's swing hits me full on the chin, my head whipping to the side and a blinding flash of light and thats all I remembered. Lights out. The next thing I remember is this beautiful woman over top of me shaking me gently asking me to wake up, wake up". That kind of idea. Once players get that they can try to do anything they want but at no time do they have control of the actions of someone else... then the game gets good. I think light rules are better than no rules though.

I haven't had any issues with running D&D 5e here, or even Pathfinder, which is even more rules heavy. I've adjusted a few things and set up some ground rules to speed things up as much as possible though, so that always helps. Rules light games do help a bit with the pacing, but rules heavy isn't always a game killer like you might expect.

That is good to hear. I don't know how you do it but glad you can.

In terms of RP, I've definitely had instances where all the PCs did was talk for pages. This doesn't affect the plot since the real time is just a few minutes, and allows for immersion when the GM is busy. Plus the characters are free to interject when they want to if they happened to miss out on some of the conversations.

Ultimately, the life of the game depends on the GM. Players may come and go, but they can be replaced so that everyone else enjoying the game can carry on. This is especially important for those who feel invested in the game, having put time and effort into their characters and what not.

Quite a few hit the nail on the head here when they mention posting frequency and attendance to the game. The best thing a GM can do is make it absolutely and concretely clear what they expect from a player regarding their involvement in the game itself. In the case of PbP, this means posting frequency. Also, the more structure, the better chance the game has to survive. If you take the time to address what is PbP's greatest weakness with an open and honest approach, you'll have a better chance of creating a lasting and enjoyable RP experience for everyone in the game. Allowing more specificity can only help, and still allows those who would prefer a more sporadic and 'post when you feel like it game' to play that way.

To each their own. For some people, that might be the perfect kind of game. I think most, however, are looking for something a little more consistent, wherein one player can't throw a wrench in the works via their interpretation of posting frequency policy combined with other psychological and time constraint variables, not realizing that some of the players are waiting on them, quite frequently perhaps, to advance the plot.

One way try to create concrete structure is I try to bring a table top environment to my PbP FFG SW game by mimicking the "let's play on Saturday" next week feel. I simply set consistent regular 'active game periods' where the group knows they are expected to participate. The more specific, the better, as it lets everyone involved know exactly when the 'game is on'. Just like a table top game, the players know where and when to meet, so to speak (e.g., my game starts Monday 12:00 PM GMT and ends Friday 12:00 PM GMT). My players not only understand the expectations, but most have also told me they appreciate the game structure as a means of ensuring an involved and engaging game. It still has the convenience of PbP, but also a little bit more of that organic feel you get from TT. And, psychologically speaking, when the players are participating closer together in real time, the story remains more salient, more engaging, and naturally will have a much better chance to continue.

I think the opposite is very true as well: when a player can more loosely interpret when they're going to participate (post), it allows them to back away from the game. And even posting policies of "1/day" allow loose interpretation, wherein view "1/day" as an average goal to meet, rather than a literal policy (either could be true, depending on the GM, who should concretely specify).

The problem with this interpretation, I believe, is one of an underlying nature. For those players who might have become stalwart mainstays, core players in the group, they become disenchanted. They check their games, waiting on so-and-so to post, and, as a result, even though they may have been looking forward to turning the page and seeing what happens next, they are instead left disappointed. That disappointment, especially if repeatedly occurring, can easily become part of the reason games slow down and come to a halt. There are, without a doubt, players who come to that "screw it" mindset and assume the game is going to die, which only exacerbates the problem further.

A big part of this, as another GM mentioned earlier in this thread, is enforcing the rules as a means of preventing all of the aforementioned problems from ruining the game. As GM, you have to have the nerve to kick someone who is dragging the game down. It's not personal, and you shouldn't enjoy doing it (unless that player was just a blight). But, at the same time, everyone in the game is counting on the GM to enforce the rules and policies. As a GM, I won't let down the rest of the group, as far as expectations, to accommodate problematic players who aren't meeting expectations. In that way, it's almost business like, sadly. However, if they're aren't interested enough to be involved, oh well. Somebody else will be. The game will go on.

The thing is, wouldn't we do the same thing in real life? If someone is missing the TT game on a regular basis, there's really no point of them being in the group. It's kind of just a downer for everyone involved. Even worse is the no-show player, which is more common on PbP to be sure (someone else also mentioned PbP's anonymity coming into play; this is undoubtedly very true).

The bottom line is that, in most cases, the less structured the game, the less likely it is to continue to be a game. Posts become sporadic and disjointed, and I think for some players that can become very contagious, their attitude becoming "what's the point". The simple subconscious mindset that 'nobody is posting anyway' creeps in, so you just stop checking as often. Naturally, you value the game less and less as your involvement wanes and the story becomes less salient, which has the snowballing effect of leading you to check less frequently. You can see where this is going.

Some of you may have experienced what this feels like. Some of you, vested in the game, kept checking anyway, until you "put a fork in it." And, as many of us have seen, the game you wanted to play died off, quite frequently because of 'PbP attrition', or the other killer, 'GM Abandonment'. It doesn't have to be that way though. The GM can play a large roll in overcoming attrition by enforcing the policies and expectations of the game, and reinforcing the players' ranks when attrition occurs.

Keeping the game going is primarily on the GM. The players are important as well, as their participation makes the game more interesting, but the person who has to be most committed to the game is the GM, just like in a TT game. If you have players interested in the game, they'll keep playing, and the game can continue. And when you do have some player casualties, the best thing to do is replace them, as needed. Even if your game gets down to one player, if they are invested in the game, it can move ahead. A good GM who cares enough to do so can make that happen while waiting for other players to fill in the vacant seats at the table.

Following this approach, sooner or later a good core group should evolve, if you didn't start with one. Again, maybe you lose one occasionally, but just like in a TT game, you keep on.


As far as things that could be done within the GP site, not that I'm an expert on website development:

(1) Allow GM's to customize the posting frequency part of the game application page (e.g., 1/day Monday-Thursday or Monday-Wednesday-Friday). This provides a concrete and very salient point of reference every applicant should see as part of their application process.

(2) Create an attendance tracker of sorts for the game forum itself. Something that shows how often the players have posted in the game in (a) the last week (b) the last month. At a glance, this will allow GM's to determine who potential problems players might be, relative to the game's expectations (just like in a TT game it would be obvious who doesn't participate or show up to the game). Also, on another level, since players will know their participation is tracked in a way like this, I think it would help motivate them to participate more frequently. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.


Maybe the above ideas aren't feasible. But, if they could be integrated into GP, it would definitely be an improvement. GM's have more responsibility than the players, and being able to see who is actually involved at a glance would be amazing.