Dungeon World - OOC

I just want to check with everyone if I am giving enough of a description in my posts or if I am missing something. I know we haven't gotten far, but feedback even this early would be appreciated.

This will also be the OOC thread (obviously). Just felt like organizing all the posts a bit more.

Ha. I just answered that in an clumsy OOC post in the RP. Was just thinking this would be better in an real OOC thread. :)
Want me to move it?

If you'd like, I've also just responded and since it's about learning it might be good to keep it in there.

In a 'real' game (which this practice feels a lot like:) I, personally, prefer to keep most of the OCC out of the RP thread. In a learning game keeping it there seems as appropriate, especially when it is about a specific in game issue. Continuing here, though.

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Discern Realities is a game mechanism, it has mechanical effects. I am not sure (as in 'literally' not sure, and not stating this for the record) that the second answer is something I can actually use to further my mechanical (or fictional) choices.
As a mechanic it is speaking to the player not the character (same way it is asked by the player, not the character). Saying the character gets a sense of foreboding does not give the player a lot to work with.
This seems like something the GM would mention as part of the scene description, not an answer to DR. We had probably assumed that already, which was why we were rolling instead of just grabbing and turning the pedestal.

The question asked was 'What should I be on the lookout for?'. That usually has two types of answers: the positive ones where it reveals something that could be useful, though there is a question for that as well, so it is more about 'opportunities' than 'items'; and the --more common-- negative ones where it reveals some detail of what might happen next. The second often acts as a warning, saying 'don't do that', or 'if you do that, be ready to do this next'.

If a question does not make sense --maybe it does not apply ('who is in control?') or there is no way for the character's actions to lead to an answer-- the GM can always say "ask something else instead", and maybe give a suggestion.
"Nothing" is always a valid answer, though not always the most satisfying.
The answer is true, though, so a GM can not say "nothing" and have 'something' happen.

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It can be challenging to find the right level of description. In live play a GM can notice the players' eyes going glassy as they lose interest, in PbP there is no feedback till after the description is posted. Feedback from the players is the only real way to get the level right, each group is different. I encourage players to speak up if they don't feel their questions have been answered (DR or otherwise), many feel shy about it and don't want to be seen as criticising the GM, so having the GM ask for this sort of feedback is essential.
The GM can always give more description if the players seem to be asking for it (or ask for it explicitly). Planning to give more does slow things down (waiting a few days to how they react), so, if one knows more will be required, giving it upfront is possibly better.
The players have no sensory stream other than what the GM tells them. Their characters of course can see everything in the scene, smell the rot, hear the screeches, feel the vibrations, all of which allow them to navigate the world and not make stupid decisions. But without the GM's descriptions the players are blind.

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GM: In general, I would say you can go into a bit more detail than you have been. You are free to add things like 'as you approach the pedestal you get the feeling that ...'.
Sometimes a player will jump ahead to doing a thing when the GM expected them to roll DR first, this might appear as them handing you a golden opportunity, but make sure they they understood that they were doing so (my having Jon stick his head out of the illusion was exactly that, I tried to telegraph that there was no carefulness to that act, and gave others the chance to stop it; I would also have added an OOC note stating this fact if it had happened), possibly rolling back the fiction if there was a misunderstanding. Watching for these misunderstandings is a good way to learn that more description was called for.

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I don't think DW is very explicit about this --other games tend to make it clearer. Only call for Moves when the outcome is interesting enough. If failure would not be interesting, don't ask the player to roll dice, just say 'yes' and move on.
When it comes to Discern Realities and Spout Lore, don't use them to reveal details about the world. If the players rolls a 6- you don't want them not getting those details... unless that lack of information would be interesting, in the short-term while players are still thinking about it.

I am listening to podcasts and watching videos to work on my scene setting, and on how to use the GM moves better. I believe I've got something that might work.

https://gamersplane.com/forums/thread/22321/?p=1034327#p1034327
I seem to have forgetting how to roll. Only did 1 dice, then added another and still could not beat a 6. :)

If we want my opinion on Edwyn's Aiding of Jon:
Discern Realities is a tricky one to roll Aid on. How does one help? With all Aid rolls we need to see in the fiction how they were helping, but that can be hard to show with an internal Move like DR.

Maybe the GM needs to show us what the consequence would be, so we can see what Edwyn could do? Maybe shout "Look out"?

But would that not first require Edwyn to have succeeded at a DR? That would be for the GM to decide, maybe it is feasible for Edwyn to have noticed the one little detail that Jon missed? Knowing that Jon would take care of the major stuff left Edwyn free to look at the small Stuff?

This can get complicated. It could be ruled that Edwyn needs to first roll DR, but the confidence that Jon looking is helping him, and after a successful DR Edwyn can help Jon with the result... But I dislike that sort of complexity, how would one adjudicate the whole mess if the DRs both missed and the Aids both succeeded? Best to stay away from such issues.

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My usual policy it to leave it up to the Aiding player. Ask them "How do you do that?" and if they can not come up with a satisfactory solution, they can not roll.

I like this, adds to the narrative and makes using the mechanics supportive of the narrative

It also reduces the confrontational aspect of the GM saying 'no'. 'How' is better then 'no'.

Forcing the player to think about how it works in the fiction often makes them say: "Oh, no, it makes not sense". And they will then (if you are lucky) think about the fiction first next time as well.

This works for all moves, not just Aid.

Let me know if I need to Defy Danger in my sneaking post.

Suggesting in my post that we team up on the Defy Danger move. Edwyn can sing his song of +2 Aid, Gareth can Aid by distracting the golem, and Jon can nip in and pull the sword from the stone...golem.

It might be worth Gareth defining his Bonds with Jon before the Aid?

I think that'd be a good idea. If everyone's down, work it out in the narrative and let's see some rolls

Yep, that sounds good!

Song it up. :)
What does that look like? What does it feel like?

Not having done this before, can I clarify: should the ally I choose be Gareth, so his Aiding the target Jon goes better than it would have? Or is the ally Jon?

Reading it again I think the ally and target are Jon, and the next time anyone Aids him, it goes better - is that correct?

The wording is definitely wonky, but as you say, it is cast on Jon, and makes him easier to Aid.

It does not say if the Bard can be the one to roll Aid. I would say it depends on the situation and the fiction, the effects are permanent and the Bard does not need to keep performing, so, in most situations, they could be the one to roll Aid. I generally rule that things like this wear off when we Make Camp, or if significant time passes.

If there were only two PCs then the Bard would have to be the one Aiding else it would not do anything, but then the game does not really work with less than three PCs, or at least, we would have to juggle some rules (I have run it --and other PbtAs-- for one player).

Pity it does not add to the Aid roll, though. People always assume it does (or should).

Cool, thanks for the clarification!

Edwyn: I assume you roll now, and take your consequences. Then 'the next time' someone succeeds at Aid it is boosted. But the GM could rule otherwise.

The GM still needs to tell us (some of) what a swamp eagle can do, though I like to get the player's input on what they wanted from the form. They might be able to Spend 1 Hold to Aid without needing to roll, if so I would assume the Move would be 'distract' and not 'Aid', but that is up to the GM (and the player).

Well yes, the idea was to a speedy bird, whirling around the golem's head to distract it. If that can be translated as a spend hold to automatically Aid, that certainly works for me.

Per the book: 'The GM will also tell you one or more moves associated with your new form. Spend 1 hold to make that move', the druid does not roll for the Shapeshifter Custom Moves, they spend their hold and automatically succeed.
This does mean they can only do it --at most-- 3 times on one shift. Sometimes it makes sense to allow them to roll as well, with all the associated risks that come with rolling. I would treat it as a Defy Danger and use that as a model for which stat to roll when.

GM: You say Jon would have +4? Where does that come from? The Bard Move turns Aid's normal +1 into a +2. If you mean +4 overall --when including my DEX-- then, agreed, but that is not a usual way to phase that and can be confusing.
If that is an aspect of the Strike from Above move, then be careful handing out extra +s. A +4 on top on my stat means I can not fail, the lowest I could get is an 8. Many PbtA games have a 'you can never roll with more than +5 total' rule. I don't like them, but they are there to mitigate the situation where the rules gave too many, stackable, options for +1s.

So to write out what *Strike from Above will do from my opinion is on a 10+ you interfere with the target causing a distraction equalling an aid to Ally's next move against the target, on a 7-9 you're able to aid but there's a complication, 6- is when I get to have fun ;D

I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on the moves I do create just to see if I manage to balance them correctly.

As well Gareth, tell me if there is another move you'd like to see from the form and we can work something out.

OkumHart: Just confirming that you saw my post three above, at the top of this page?
The way this site handled new pages can lead to us thinking we have read all the new posts, but missing that there is a new page. :(

If you want to change the way this Move works in your game that is fine. Feel free to ignore me whenever my generic advice does not fit your specifics. :)

Huh. I always read it as gaining a move like any other but I found one of the authors explaining it the way you did.

Sage LaTorrasays:
February 28, 2013 at 6:52 pm
Using a druid animal form move means that just happens.

If you’ve got "eviscerate", you can spend a point of hold to just eviscerate something, fiction allowing. You don’t have to make a hack and slash roll for that.

Think of it this way: the druid uses shapeshift to turn one success into multiple successes at the cost of flexibility (and greater fictional consequences for failure).

Interesting. The rules don't say that you don't roll, just that you have to Spend Hold each time you make these Moves.
I can not think of any other instances of Hold where you also have to roll dice, but, by the rules, you Spend Hold to make the Custom Move, and if the GM has added rolls to the Custom Move, then I suppose you roll as well.

I have never seen rolls on this though, and there is no provision for wasted Hold on a miss. Once you Spend your last Hold, you revert back to human form, what happens on a miss? All your Hold gone, so you become human, but what about your (animal) 'hunger driving you to hunt'? Does that carry over to your human form?

I might also be nervous about this sort of miss result. It can take away player agency and force them to do something they don't want to do, possibly even taking them out of a scene which can be bad/boring. If they player is onboard, and has signed up for having the GM control their character at times this can be fun, but it does require trust and player buy-in.

When you say 'a move like any other' you are right. But not all Moves have dice rolls. For instance, only one of your Druid Moves has a roll associated with it.

From the book, page 354:

Yeah my post was out of order from yours

I've become a bit busy over the last few days and will be busy for the next two. My posts will be erratic

Okay so vagueGM, what would be an appropriate change to what I've posted? Gareth can make his moves as he likes, spending hold, but what would be an effect that supports the narrative (since that's the focus)? I said in my post that *Strike from Above would give aid to an ally, is that still a decent move or should it be something else?

Welcome back?

Some things to clarify more than 'change'.

Why is there a +4 bonus?
Are you sure you want to add rolls to the moves?
What happens when the player spends their last Hold and therefore has to return to their human form, but also rolls a 6- and trigger 'hunger'?

I assume that Strike from above could also do other things than just Aid? The Shapeshifted character can (form permitting) still attack, but it is common enough for Shapeshift Moves to offer guaranteed attack outcomes due to them being from surprise, or from above, or from a source that was not expected. In different situations this could also, maybe, allow the character to disarm an opponent, snatch an item from them, or something?

I guess that's my current question, how to make animal form moves.

I like the idea that Gareth would be able to aid, since that's part of the narrative at the moment, but it might not always be. For example Gareth is outside in a field and turns into a hawk, and uses *Strike from Above but his intention is not to aid but to do damage. Would the definition of what Strike from Above is change because of the context?

The +4 is coming from my experiences with DnD and Pathfinder, where bonus stacks like that happen regularly. Clearly it's too high and I need to think of a different way that the narrative effects the mechanics.

Changing to a +2, would be better?

I'm sorry to have wasted time. I was thinking the Bards Arcane Art ability gave that +2 to the aided individual, but it adds it to the one giving aid.

It's no problem. We are here to learn.
No, you were right the first time. Aid usually gives +1, if Jon has this Arcane Art on him then the next time someone Aids him he gets a +2 instead of the +1. It adds an extra +1 to the Aided individual's roll, same way that second option would add a d4 to their next damage.

It can seem strange that the Bard has no Arcane Art that can just directly Aid another, but they already have more Bonds than anyone else, so they use those to power their superior Aid ability.
A +1 is a big deal in PbtA, it shifts the dice distribution curve upwards, changing all the probabilities. Until you have a solid understanding about the dice, I would stay away from adding +s. DnD is full of +1s, but they are rather boring, I would much rather get a sword what can cause a zingggg! noise when it is drawn than a +1, or any other fictionally interesting addition instead of +s. +s mess with the power balance (and DW has no balance:) but don't add to the fiction at all. Think fiction first.

[linebreak[
For reference:
• Shapeshifter: When you call upon the spirits to change your shape, roll+Wis.
• On a 10+ hold 3. On a 7--9 hold 2. On a miss hold 1 in addition to whatever the GM says.
• You may take on the physical form of any species whose essence you have studied or who lives in your land: you and your possessions meld into a perfect copy of the species' form.
• You have any innate abilities and weaknesses of the form: claws, wings, gills, breathing water instead of air.
• You still use your normal stats but some moves may be harder to trigger ---a housecat will find it hard to do battle with an ogre.
• The GM will also tell you one or more moves associated with your new form. Spend 1 hold to make that move.
• Once you're out of hold, you return to your natural form. At any time, you may spend all your hold and revert to your natural form.
They still have access to all their normal moves, so they can still roll Aid no matter that. You would adjust the outcomes based on the fiction, and they may not be able to Aid in ways they normally could, but may gain new ways to Aid due to their form.
You don't have to give them moves that do what they are wanting right now (I prefer to, but many GMs just go by what they think such a form could do in general.

I often wait to define these Moves until something comes up that makes sense. But discuss this with the player, they may need guidance as to what they can, eventually, do or what limitations they may have.
You can do that. It can save on needing to keep notes on all the different forms the Druid takes over the entire campaign.
The more generic and open the Move the easier this is.
Keeping the Move open --maybe only defining the name-- allows the player to interpret this based on the fiction. 'Strike from Above' is a good example, the player can then say "I Strike from Above to distract the golem Aiding Jon", or "I Strike from Above, raking at their eyes!" and the GM then has to ask "What are you trying to do? Hurt them or blind them? And to what end?"

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Take a look at the Advanced Moves the Druid can get to get an idea of what else they achieve from Shapeshift, you don't want to give them abilities that overlap with Advances else you make the Advances obsolete. This is always a problem: The more the game defines about what some can do, the more you have to keep track of others not being able to do, or not yet.

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The best advice may be: "Keep it simple", especially at first. I would avoid using more than five words in total for each of these Moves, and would try for one word. The Druid is going to be Shapeshifting a lot, so you don't want to make more work for yourself.
The more complex the Moves you make, them more likely you are to run into problems. 'Grapple', 'Distract', 'Hide', 'Burrow', 'Roar!', and so on are useful examples, but adopt your own style.
I would stick to "Spend 1 Hold and it happens" style Moves, and not ask for rolls till you thoroughly understand all the corner cases (like with the hunger when the Druid can drop the form at will).

Reserve the negative outcomes for when they roll a 6- on the Shapeshift Move itself. You can regulate how much they use it by making it dangerous/risky (there is a roll involved so it is). Obviously don't spoil it for them --it is a major feature of the Playbook-- but don't go easy on them either, Being a Fan of their Character does not mean you give them what they want, it means you put them difficult situations they have where they get to shine.

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And don't feel bad. The Druid is a problematic class, it is hard on the GM, the book gives no guidance at all. It is also one of the more popular ones, I think I have observed about 3% of DW games not having a Druid, most GMs need to deal with them.

Thanks, you definitely give the space to feel like I am learning and can learn.
Good to know I'm not the only one to struggle with this :')

So, are we sticking with the animal moves needing a roll as opposed to being automatic? Because if they are rolls, then I basically have the same odds as human or bird to Aid Jon and there was no benefit to the shape shift.

There would still be some small benefit in terms of fictional positioning and things an animal can do that would not need a roll. A rat or a housefly should not be ask to roll stealth in most situations, people are not going to pay them any attention, even if they notice them.

I don't like having these special moves do the same thing as Basic Moves, the Basic Moves already do that. Special Moves should feel special, they should make the Druid unique.

Added a roll to my post in case that is what we were waiting on.

I added my post and roll (got an 8, so thanks for all the help:).
I hope OkumHart is OK and will be back with us soon.