Welcome Aironfabio

Welcome Aironfabio.

What do you want to get from this 'game'?
Do you have any specific questions?
What is your history?

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Take a look at the To Start post in the general Welcome thread and answer any of those questions, if relevant.

Feel free to chat here, or in the general Welcome thread. And take a look at what we we currently have in the other threads when you have time.

I mostly wish to understand how to play a PbtA via PbP in an efficient and engaging way.

Mostly, how the conversation can flow and when to call the moves to make the best use of every post.

I played a few one shots IRL (dungeon world mostly), listened to many podcasts and am generally a pretty confident GM on several type of games.

I must transition to PbP due to IRL issues for a while and would love to try a few PbtA (as player or GM) that don't interest my group, mainly Avatar as soon as it releases, maybe Masks.

I have not looked at Avatar, I did no back the kickstarter, and (because?) I have not watched the show (though it is on my list, but that is a long list), so I can not make specific comments on that game.

I have played, run, and taught some Masks, but 'superheros' are an area where I am decidedly weak. I have seen most of the recent, big blockbuster movies, but not much else and don't read comic books. I blame that for the issues I have with Masks as a ruleset. I try not to be critical --many people like the game-- and I have been impressed with how versatile and flexible it and its playbooks are. But I really struggle with the Label Shifting mechanics and portraying them as something other than a 'punishment' (akin to Conditions (loss of HP) or loss of XP).

But, this is meant to be a Round table, so hopefully others here will be able to help with those specifics. Though, it is has been quiet here of late.

Yeah, I don't have any issues with the games themselves, I'm more interested in generic PbtA examples on how the exchange goes through PbP medium. Any game with moves will do to understand that.

While PbP can add an extra layer of complication, the rules for when you call for Moves are still pretty much the same as any other play-form. The player posts the fiction of what they are doing (all PbtA games are very much 'fiction first'), and then the GM (with the help of the other players) say if what they described requires a roll, and if so, which Move is being triggered.

This is a discussion, not a ruling, but that can become slow on PbP. Some of this slowness is unavoidable. Best way to avoid slowdowns is to only call for Moves when they are absolutely required to decide the outcome. 'Say yes, or Roll Dice' as the saying goes: First see if you can just let the player have what they want, and only call for dice if 'yes' is not an option (and if 'no' is not the only reasonable answer, but that falls outside the rules).

Depending on the game in question, what they roll or which Move applies, often needs to be a discussion and negotiation between player and GM. GM has 'final say', but that not 'only say'.

In some other games it might make sense for the player to include a roll with the post, this can be problem in PbtA, especially on a Miss. Remember "nothing never happens" so if they roll, something has to happen, and situations that were not meant to be deadly suddenly become so. This can be especially complicated in games that give XP on a Miss, players might be seen as gaming the system and rolling hoping for a Miss (and XP) in the knowledge that nothing serious can happen to them in this safe situation, I don't want to accuse anyone of (deliberately) cheating, but it can be very hard to disentangle these uncalled for rolls and say for sure that they should be ignored.

My 'rule' (though a soft one) is "if the dice come out we are committed". I remember in Apocalypse World, players (often DnD players, given its era) would constantly ask "can I read a situation" and I would point out that that Move says its trigger is "When you read a charged situation, roll+sharp", so, if they Read a Sitch, the situation is 'charged' --even if it was not before-- and there is risk. Maybe 'warlord who was friendly gets suspicious "What are you constantly looking around for? Don't you trust us?" they demand'. The dice come out, there will be blood.

While "don't roll till asked to" seems like it might slow things down, if the GM is on the ball, it works out smoother than allowing unsolicited rolls and untangling the outcomes.

Which game rules have you read. We can mock up some situations in those.

If you have specific questions, ask them too.

Great. Let's.

I'm familiar with (as in, read the manual and either played or listened to actual play podcasts) Dungeon World, Masks, Epylion, Pasion del Las Pasiones, Monster of the Week, the Root and Avatar quickstarts. Maybe something else I'm missing.

I have been meaning to look at Root.
Pasion is a fascinating game with interesting rules, but I have no clue about Telenovelas.

I have created a subforum which you should have control over (let me know if I missed something in the permissions, it has been a while since we did this:).

Do you want to create a scenario (toss us in the middle somewhere, maybe give us pregen characters if you want (no need for sheets)) and we see how it could play out? Or do you want us to make something and GM you through it, or for us to make something and you GM us out of it? Or any other variation. We don't need to conclude any of these unless we want to, we can play as much and discuss as much as we feel is needed.

I'd be happy to join the mock up situation if that helps :)

That would definitely help.

I can take the role of several PCs as well if we need.

I'll wait for TheGenerator test before opening a mock thread myself. Most of what he asks I can use as well

If you want to throw in some of your questions in my thread, feel free. We can both learn at the same time :)

I didn't want to say it, but yes, these threads are full of repeat questions. :)
Most of the problems people have are problems other people also have.

There are also the general Q&A threads for questions.

here's the manuals I have access to.

Dungeon World, Masks, Epylion, Pasion del Las Pasiones, Monster of the Week, the Root and Avatar quickstarts.

I am interested mostly in running an Avatar game in the future, so this would be the most useful mock thread. I am also very fine with Root.
Both are quickstart freely downloadable (Root already has a published pdf but the quickstart is fine for now).

I have to admit, I'm only familiar with DW. Is that an issue? If the rules aren't too complex I'm fine with joining any system.
If you feel like that would hinder things, I don't mind sitting back.

I have the Root quickstart (need to check it is up to date, it has been years since I looked) but have not read it. I am not really into anthropomorphic animals, but don't mind the idea.

Happy to get the Avatar one and try that.

Don't know the IP for either of them, but have at lease heard of Avatar, and do plan to watch it, while I probably would not ever read Root's origins (graphic novel, was it?).

Pasion seems sorta ideal for a 'quick, thrown in the middle of things' game, does it not? :)

I will only be able to provide very general advice on any of the above.

I have run Epylion and Masks a bit, and Monster of the Week a lot, but don't let that sway you. It has been a long time since I looked at DW, you can judge if my opinions were helpful.

Is this "Avatar: The Last Airbender" or "Avatar" the 3D movie?
I've seen both, but quite a while ago ;)

the last airbender ;D
the gamei s called Avatar: Legends, by Magpie, the guys that made most high-budget PbtAs

Meh

I also remember now. They demand your email before giving you the Avatar quickstart. I rejected them based on that (not that I can't make easy throwaway email addresses, it is the principle of the thing).

I said high-budget, not necessarily good ;)

since you seem to somewhat dislike Magpie and are critical of DW, may I ask you what are your favorite PbtAa ?

True.
Not at all. I really like Mark Diaz Truman and Andrew Medeiros, and also enjoyed Brendan Conway's roleplay (if not his work so much (it is excellent stuff, but not my style)). 'Meh' was merely that there are so many others... and the budget does not impress me.
I suppose that could be accurate. It is among the least favorite of the games I play. But it is still on the list. I do wish another fantasy PbtA would unseat it, something that does not pander to DnD as much. AW:Fallen Empires is a great contender with the right group.
I don't really know if 'favorite' is the right term. There are many, and some are better suited to some games, groups, or playstyles than others. Swapping to one the does what you want, makes more sense than forcing the one you have to do something it is not good at.

There are so many, that I can not hope to list them off the top of my head.

That said. I do often find that, after a while, that a game that aims to do a thing might have enough rough edges that I revert back to implementing the idea in base Apocalypse World. That really is a well written game with clear instructions --if you can get past the tone and language-- and working Moves

Sometimes a game provides enough to the base experience that it is worth keeping it. Impulse Drive comes to mind in this regard, it is a bit messy, and has too many moves, but is still my go to for most space stuff (even though I struggle to justify it each time). The free version has all the text of the paid version, (except for the sample adventure), and is just missing the artwork (using free stuff from the time), but I find myself using it at the table rather than the paid version because it is easier to read without the fancy layout.

Monster of the Week is probably my go-to Modern (and historical) Urban Fantasy, even though it has some rough edges (it is from very early-years PbtA) and some slightly wonky mechanics (don't mistake it for an 'Investigation Game':).

I am keen to try Nahual (by Andrew Medeiros mentioned above), and am waiting for it to be available. It is a very specific type of Urban Fantasy, but has a clever way of integrating the Stress mechanic from Blades in the Dark into PbtA. The themes are a little dark for my tastes, which is why I did not back the KS, but, from what I have seen, I am, now, sorry I didn't.

Yesterday's Tomorrow is my go to Cyberpunk game. It is probably the only one where there is no other contender in the ring for that genre (maybe Headspace?).

What else is there?

I have half of an idea fo running a proper Vignette using the avatar quisckstart rather then setting up a mock thread. I'll see tomorrow.

Cool. You can get to play with teaching the game as well.

Will grab the quickstart later today.

I gave them my email, they said 'thank you for signing up' and removed the 'get your copy' button, I have not received anything from them (magpie are usually pretty good, I know I get constant communications from them about projects I have backed).

There also looks like there will be enough interest. Since I don't know the setting I won't join the game.

This Round Table is still a place to ask questions and talk about options. So don't hesitate to ask. Provide enough (non-spoiler) context so we can know how to help.

Good luck.

How's the game going, Aironfabio? Did it turn out the way you expected? Any cool/fun stories to tell so far?

just started now. The game is public if you want to read.
This post gave me a bit of pause, since the player used the character sheet as if it was DnD, without thinking about moves.

In general, I'm starting to think that PbtA are less suited than other systems to PbPs. We'll see how this vignette goes.

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. Might take a few posts for it to become clear.

Looks like you dropped them into some action right away. No messing around huh? :D Never heard of a condorpard before, lol. It looks as weird as it sounds. I love it!
Oh yeah? How come?
I was reading this post recently, and it looks like D&D gets annoyingly difficult because of all the reactions and saving throws.

The players do need to understand how things work. Especially if they have DnD experience. It is possible the quickstart does not have enough rules to teach them how PbtA works?

That example looks like a standard failure to use 'Fiction First, and only then look for Moves'. The attempt to roll a Stat rather then Move is less of a problem than looking at the sheet and trying to use a mechanical thing rather than a fictional thing.

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Where I tend to disagree with the general consensus is the claim that PbP is a good way to learn new systems. It can be a good way to try out new systems, but learning often benefits from instruction, and instruction is --even more-- tricky when you are not talking to people face to face to see what they understand; and when there are a multi-hour (or even multi-day) delays between asking and getting instruction on each new rule, leading to people not bothering to ask question.

This fear of delay often results in people wanting to 'guess and make rolls' (or use the mechanics) preemptively so as to avoid keeping people waiting. It is hard to explain to people that their uninformed mistaken use of rules is actually slowing things down in the long run. But that is standard 'birth pains' of any new endeavour, taking it slow at first means it can run smoother later.

I have found it much easier to teach people who have never played any RPGs before. Not only are they more willing to accept instruction (they don't already think they know it all), but we don't have to teach 'new ways' of doing things or overcome the "change is uncomfortable" syndrome.

Teaching a new system and mindset (PbtA), at the same time as a new game (Avatar) is doubly tricky. That is the big draw for Dungeon World, and a large motivation for making it: They kept much of the terminology the same, and readded several things from DnD (the six aspects, the 3-18, the rolling of funny-shaped dice for damage, the classes, ...) purposely to ease the transition; and Tolkienesque Fantasy is also familiar enough that there is no real need to think the setting while learning the new system.

Mostly because of "never speak the name of move" mindset. And emphasis on conversation.

The few times I played PbtA at the table, it is

Player1: "my pc does this"
GM (sometimes entire table): "sounds to me like Move"
Player1: "yeah, it's more or less my intention, I'll roll"

The player never assumes a move. There's always a need for consensus at the table about intent. I find it hard to transition this mindset in asynchronous. We'll see as the vignette progresses.

DnD high level is definitely worse in PbP, I played 10th level Pathfinder and it was hell.

The other game I'm running, Spire, so far seems the best fit.

That does only apply to GM Moves, not to player Moves.

And, honestly, I always took that to mean you need to paint the picture in the fiction and not just use the moves names (as DnDers would do). There is no harm also mentioning the move name as an aside, so long as the group is not all so focused on 'immersion' that a little meta-conversation will hurt.

From the Apocalypse World book:

Ah, right. I know what you mean. It does slow things down sometimes. As a player I usually make it easier by adding "try" to my action.

So instead of.
Player: "I grab my sword and stab the creature"
I'd say
Player: "I grab my sword and try to stab the creature, hoping to make it fall backwards so I can then cut its head off".

This has some benefits in my opinion.
- The GM can see what you are trying to do and adjust a possible bad roll to still make that idea work.
- You can do multiple rolls in 1 post.
- The other players already know what to expect for their next move. (unless it's a bad roll)
- The GM can say "that doesn't need a roll, it just works"

It still requires some back and forth, but seems like a much nicer flow of things.

That is a very useful technique. GMs appreciate not needing to fight the fiction of what a player says they have already done.

In a similar vein: I don't like to tell the player what they characters do, so I tend to favour language like "If you were to enter the room you would find that ..." so the players can see that entering the room would not need a roll, and that they would not be attacked or trapped or anything and can just proceed, and they don't have to object with "But I was not planning on going in there till I checked the library first."

I've noticed this in our game together, vagueGM. It definitely felt weird to me at first. It felt 'dirty' to enter a place already knowing what there was to find. Or deciding that the thing in that room isn't worth finding and going the other way. It invites meta-info decision making. But after this kind of thing happening a few times, it makes a lot of sense and it works well. Had to twist my brain a bit to accept it. :)

It might, yes. If I find that happening I stop using that trick. If players can't cope with the streamlining then they get an unstreamlined game.
Did it feel weird enough that you think it should be avoided, in the future, in general? (Gathering data-points, so please answer honestly)

No, not for me anyway. I enjoy learning new methods of play. I see the benefit of using it in PbP.

It's just the fact that everyone learns RP in a certain way and you get accustomed to those ideas. It takes some getting used to when someone proposes a different way.

It is particularly useful in asynchronous play, but I used the same technique even before the internet.
Yeah, that can be jarring, and make new games harder to learn. The more 'ways' we know the less strange any new ones seem, if we only know one way, then it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that is 'the way'.