Solo, GMless, and other non-standard-model games

We can talk all manner of games that don't adhere to the standard model of one GM and many players.

Ironsworn and Starforged are probably prime examples, as are Dream Askew and the Belonging Outside Belonging (BOB) games it spawned. Unusual arrangements like Sundered Lands (where there is one player and many 'GMs') are also apropos.

Request forums for any other specific games you want to add, maybe in the General Q&A until a better place suggests itself.

I know absolutely nothing about those, care to give me a little introduction?

Tricky, given that Solo games are games you play by yourself. :)

As a starting point I recommend you grab a copy of Ironsworn, not only is it free, but it is also rated as one of the better solo RPGs by many. Give it a read and see what you think, come back to us with any questions.

Unlike other solo RPGs it also has provision for co-op play: where a group get together and, basically, use the 'solo' rules with their own characters in the same world (normally together in a party) so there is no GM, but each player takes on those responsibilities as needed (and mainly for themself).

Ironsworn also has rules for 'guided play' which what it calls traditional play with a GM. It is still quite good in that capacity, but does have a lot of moves, all of which have more detail than is strictly needed in a game with a GM. The Solo and Co-Op are what sets it apart.

Playing Ironsworn Solo can be a good way to practice basic (improv) GMing skills for use in regular games.

---

Dream Askew is a different sort of game (sufficiently different that it might need its own thread).

There is no GM. Instead, all of the players take turns being the GM for the group for a specific part of the setting. So you might take the lead with anything that has to do with 'The Outlying Gangs', and I take the lead on issues involving 'The Varied Scarcities', but may need to put that Setting Element down to take up the 'The Digital Realm' because it is more relevant to the story at this time and no one else is available, or I am the one PC interacting with that Element and need someone else to GM it for me. All players take on the roles of NPCs as needed.

Oh, and Dream Askew does not use dice, it has a cleaver system where you get a token for making a 'Weak Move' (think 6- in PbtA) and have to spend a token to make a 'Strong Move' (which is sorta like a 10+).

Dream Askew --and the BOB engine-- has spawned a whole lot of games under the byline of 'no dice, no masters'.

Thanks for making this thread, vagueGM.

I started a game of Ironsworn. It's all new to me, both a solo game and the system. So I was wondering if anyone could take a look at it and see if I'm forgetting anything important.

There's one spot in particular where I wasn't sure what to do. It starts here, where my PC rolled a successful "Gather Information" move to find out what happened in the area. So he found a direction to head in, in search of the 2 missing people. But then a bit later I asked the oracle "Do they find anymore clues along the way? (likely)" and it ended up as a no. So I kinda got stuck there and made them return to the village.

Afterwards I thought, maybe that should have been another "Gather Information" move, cause the move mentions "following a trail". Should I have used that instead?

Did I play it right the way I did? (if there even is a right or wrong way to do it ;) )

Besides that, I feel like it's going pretty well.

Without reading all the posts, I can only give vague suggestions and overviews.

It looks to me like you may be making too many rolls?

For instance, that example you give above: Why ask 'if you find more clues'? That seems like a recipe for getting stuck (gating clues behind rolls is often a problem, take a look at the Gumshoe System as a set of games built specifically to avoid that problem). Much like with regular GMing (and you are also your own GM here), don't take it to the dice unless you have, at least, a slight idea about what could happen in all cases --if you don't know how a miss would work out, maybe don't make a roll.

---

Specific Ironsworn advice (though not specific to that scene):

You can (and should, it is not 'cheating') tailor your questions so that they don't block your progress (unless you intend to block progress with a 'can I progress from here?' question:).

I see a lot of yes/no questions (and likely vs unlikely does not protect you from the 'wrong answer').

Maybe you could have asked: "What additional clue do I find" and use the (...it has been a while and I don't have the book, so guessing...) Action and Theme tables for your lookup. Then you still have to make the effort to interpret how those results fit with the existing clues... or if they are some outside influence trying to lead you astray or some other excuse for 'fake-clues'.

I am sure the book tells you not to roll if you can see an obvious answer. Just go with the obvious, and save the rolls for when you are out of ideas.

Maybe start with smaller rolls (in terms of import and impact). "Which way does the clue lead me?" rather than "Is there a clue?". You can flavour the questions to add risk: "Does the clue lead me the way I don't want to go?" (possibly followed by "Why wouldn't I want to go that way?" (probably Action and Theme again?)).

I seldom use the Oracles for 'clues'. There may be better 'clue generators' out there, but most times the actual clue is pretty obvious (you are the one 'writing the story', after all). So it is more about what stands in the way of your getting the clue, or how (not whether) you can understand what the clues mean, or how much getting (or understanding) them will cost you. A clue not gotten is a clue wasted, and 'going back to town' to roll again for Quantum Ogre clues is just a time sink. Maybe add a ticking clock to mitigate time sinks?

---

It is hard to find a balance in these things. Especially when you are both the GM and the player. It is easy to feel like we are letting ourselves off to easy, or cheating. It is also easy to paint ourselves into a corner and break the game.

If anyone in interested: We could put together a Guided game, here (or start a real game), and I can GM some scenes while annotating how I am using the Moves, Oracles, or dice, to serve as an example?

The World Creation is quite a big and involved thing, so getting started can take a while. I might pick some generic options that give freedom to try different things and then plonk the players into that.

Yes, that it was.

Right, so after the first "Gather information" I could have done something like "They travel for an hour, following the trail and find what they were looking for" instead of blocking myself with another roll. That would have made things much easier. :)
Yes, it's a bit annoying to have to roll again for the same thing, but I did some thinking about that already and decided the settlement might have someone who knows those woods better. A more experienced hunter or woodsman. They could lead me there without needing anymore clues. But that begs the question, do I have to roll to find that person? Since Marland lives in the town, he would probably know someone.

I'll think about adding a clock, I kinda did that already because they found out one of the missing ppl is seriously injured. So waiting the night will make it more unlikely for that one to be found alive.
I do enjoy rolling :) But your tips on which questions to ask will come in handy. I'll refrain from asking questions where one of the possible outcomes would block me. All outcomes should be things I can work with.

I've been watching "Me, myself & die" as an example playthrough on youtube. He goes through his rolls and thought process pretty well. I'm only on episode 3 though.
If you're bored and looking for a game to run, I'm happy to join, but don't feel in any way obligated. My RP needs are well satisfied with the current games I'm in :)

If you find yourself doing so often then it might be best to just ignore the dice result that put you in the blocked position.

Ignoring the dice is within the rules, as is swapping the numbers to see if those table-items work better or taking the result above or below the one you got, or swapping and then taking the above or below... or looking at the result and going "Ooh. That give me a better idea!" and doing your own thing. All these work better with questions that are not yes/no, of course.
What would happen if you fail that roll? Are you blocked again?

If it seems reasonable that there is someone who can help, then the only questions are what it will cost, or if they need you to do something for them (first or after) (Settlement Trouble, maybe?)
They are a natural part of most stories.
Given these time limits, a fair price to pay for bad rolls is Stress (Spirit, I think?) as you have to deal with the stress and strain of things slowing you down. Emotional strain from delays is often better than blocking, it adds to the story instead of detracting from it. It shows us the character of the character.

Take some actions to build up some Momentum, that way you can overcome results like this when you absolutely need to.

I don't really watch Actual Play stuff, so I can not comment. But maybe more episodes will help clarify things. Don't hesitate to ask about anything they say on there if they don't make sense.

I'll take all that into account and try to apply it.
Even with knowing all the rules it takes a certain amount of affinity to know when to apply them. I'm sure I'll get better at it. :)
What do you mean with "take some actions"? Do you mean that I should work towards rolling more moves that reward me with +Momentum?

Ain't that the truth. :)

Also true with GMing other games. Often the players can carry on without the GM interfering and knowing when to intervene with mechanics is a useful skill. GMing for oneself can be a good way to get lots of GMing experience with that sort of thing, as well as practice in thinking on ones' feet.
Having high Momentum is good. Going straight for the Moves that you think will get you the results you want can often leave you unfulfilled. Taking the time to get momentum going means that you can improve your chances when you come to doing the final, 'important' Move.

This is especially true in combat. You need to have Initiative (which does not mean what DnD pretends it means) to 'finish the fight', and if all you do is go after the 'finishing move', you can end up never scoring the Strong Hit needed to get Initiative to do it. This can lead to strange edge-cases where you just keep piling on the damage but the fight never ends (but let common sense prevail).

Momentum let's you force the Strong Hit, so you can end the fight.

For what it's worth, I started playing in a Wanderhome asynchronous play-by-post game on discord (Belonging Outside Belonging, which is a kind of "No Dice, No GM" freeform hack of Powered by the Apocalypse) and it's a lot of fun. I've also been wanting to try Apothecaria, a solo/journaling game. Both very different tone from Ironsworn though.

If you have any advice that you think will be helpful, please share it here.

Wanderhome does look interesting enough that I picked it up, even though I am not much of a fan of anthropomorphic animals.I have not yet read (or played) it, though.
"Belonging Outside Belonging" (BOB) is the official term they are using for games based on Dream Askew. I still think of the in terms of Dream, since I played the original version of that way back in 2013, before the Dream Apart merger and kickstarter, and subsequent explosion of BOB games.

Not all BOB games keep the strict 'no masters' bit. Many of us found, rather quickly, that someone needs to take on many of the oft-overlooked GM tasks to keep a game going. Without someone willing to 'push', games tend to flounder with everyone looking to everyone else to do something, or not wanting to overstep. Having someone --who is designated as the 'moderator'-- feel that they have a duty to step up and make something happen, smooths that out a lot. Many newer BOB games include an assumption of such a role, and even encourage someone to take on a more traditional GM role and not play a PC if there are enough other characters. I have not played as a pure GM for anything other than teaching the games, though.

The 'no dice' part works surprisingly well (with the right group) and plays and feels a lot like normal PbtA. I have had groups forget that there were no dice and be surprised by that fact when they were telling other people about the system after months of play.
That does look interesting. Though, I have to admit, I had not had much success sticking with any solo/journaling games before Ironsworn. And even that I mostly do co-op and guided with the solo feeling slightly more like 'practice' than actual play. :(

---

Mythic GM Emulator came close to working a few times, and bolts onto your preferred game system, meaning you can play whatever game you like in a solo capacity. It can be worth adding to an Ironsworn game to supplement the rules and its Oracles.

I have also used the tables from Maze Rats to create on-the-fly spells and effects in many games.

If you have access to it --and even if your don't care for scifi-- the new Ironsworn: Starforged game has cleaned up some of the rough edges on the rules and is worth a read to help clarify things.

I could try to describe what's worked for us. We've been playing for a few months now without a GM (about 4 of us)... BoB does play like PbtA in style. But I'd say it also feels very close to "pure" play-by-post or "collaborative storytelling" freeform roleplay. We have a section for character sheets, game resources, etc, but also an active out-of-character section where we can keep check on each other's topic boundaries and story consistency -- though you have to allow for some inconsistencies.

What I did notice is that we don't even bother with the "token" mechanic at all (esp since there's no GM to award them) and instead we wind up just using the playbook moves as story "prompts" to spark ideas for our posts. Wanderhome in particular has sections for building the location details and NPC personality traits, etc... very similar to random tables. Also, with GMless any player can "take control" of an NPC to move the story along. When we get bored of a particular location, then we could start building the next location in the OOC section -- each contributing some detail, using the gamebook for ideas.

It does help for there to be someone who initially sets up the different game sections, etc to get it going. Maybe not a GM exactly, but a "facilitator" -- the discord we're on also has moderators which helps. EDIT: I imagine BoB could also work really well for one-on-one (duet) games.
I really like Ironsworn, though I've yet to try it much. Journaling games are more like free-writing, using playing-cards or tarot decks and the game's prompts to get ideas for "what happens next" in the story. Where as Ironsworn seems more random-tables, dice-rolling, resource management. Just depends on what one wants I guess. P.S. I also have a copy of Mythic GM Emulator too and I should try using it more.

Quick question about a move in Ironsworn. I rolled the "weak hit" on "Fulfill your vow". This states:
So what I'm not exactly sure about is, is this vow complete? Cause it tells me to mark XP but also that 'there is more to be done'. Which kinda contradicts each other.
Also is there any gauge on how much of 'more to be done' it needs to be? Or is that completely up to me.

You can see here how I thought to resolve it.

A Weak Hit is still a Hit, so you succeeded. So, yes, that vow is complete. You do get less XP though.
And it tells you the most common way of dealing with the unfinished business. But you don't have to deal with the unfinished business if you don't choose to. (you may Swear a new Vow, not you 'must').

The loss of XP is the mechanical consequence, the 'more to be done' is fiction, and you can act on it, or not, as you choose. But it does give you some direction, and a thing to do next, if you choose to accept it.
Don't as me... Ask the Oracle. :)

---

From the book:

Right, I didn't think about that. lol :)
I do think that I did it right, based on the action & theme that I rolled. (it kinda couldn't have been clearer) So I just have to ask the oracle about the 'difficulty' of this next step.
I didn't realize the book had a larger explanation. I was using the reference sheets.

I think I know what to do now, thanks! :)

Envision it if you can, else Ask the Oracle. That is pretty much the rule for everything Ironsworn. :)
It can be worth reading the details and examples in the book to get a clearer idea of what the author intended.

I riffed my answer off the top of my head (and general Ironsworn Principles) and then copied the text from the book, read it and almost added a "... um... that's what I said" :)

Hiya

So, I've recently upgraded my Ironsworn character from stats array "3,2,2,1,1" to "4,3,3,2,2" because I was getting so many setbacks that I started finding it hard to continue the story.

My character in my solo game has been on 0 supply for a while now and there's no real opportunity for him to sejourn atm. He's in the middle of something important. So he's either got to abandon his vow and sejourn, or keep going with the debility. And with the lower stats it just started being a drag because his spirit and health are fine.

I also don't feel like it's much fun to slowly kill him off when the rolls I'm failing are mostly progress rolls. (Like undertake a journey)

What's your opinion on the stat arrays?

I'm starting to feel like the supply really limits the story in a not so fun way. Or maybe I'm handling it wrong?

The Ironsworn Lodestar reference guide has rules for alternate stats.

---

I had a character who ended up with two 4s (see the last line):

Those 4s broke the game and I ended up having to stop playing, it became boring.

I see, in the notes I copied that table from, that I also had a 'Grim' statline listed as a possibility for starting. I remember thinking about using that a few times but found the base statline to be better each time.

---

If it becomes unfun, make any changes you need to make it fun. This is especially true in a solo game where you only have to answer to yourself, but also in a group game where you only have to answer to your group, it does not matter what the rules or the author says, they are not at your table.
The problem might be too much Paying the Price with Supply rather than the other two?

If the situation genuinely led to Supply being such a significant problem, then maybe there are story elements telling you that you need to make another plan? Come back better prepared?
Make sense. It is a Move that is deliberately limited in its availability.
That is the classic dilemma, no?

But if that is not fun anymore, then look a little harder and you may find somewhere you can Sojourn? How do you know there is no opportunity?
Progress roll failures are related to two numbers, maybe focus on getting the Progress value up rather than upping your stats?

While you can not use Momentum on the Progress roll itself, you can use it on the rolls to Make Progress (It has been a while so don't quote me, and look up the actual Move names yourself, I may get them wrong:).

An extra Make Progress will do more for your passing the Progress roll than upping your stats (unless you are setting very hard quests, in which case you need to Make Progress a few more times), and will not throw all the other mechanics out of whack.

Upping your stats will help you Make Progress faster, but at what cost?
As mentioned, Lodestar has alternate stats. I was interested in the Grim lines, but never actually played with them (for long) finding the default stat array to be about right.

The fact that they exist, means people are wanting alternatives, so you are not alone and should not feel bad. Try it and see if it works for you.

Don't be too attached to this character or their current quest, maybe take a break and try another character with other stats and other situations for a while to see if you could have handled things differently? You can always come back.
Hitting 0 on any of your 'health bars' is a big deal. I don't think this is Supply's fault, specifically. The fact that you let your Supply get so low that you ended up in a desperate situation means you may have to back off, go home, and resupply and try again.

This does not necessarily mean you have to abandon the quest, though. See if you can find a way to justify returning home and trying again, wiser this time.

Delve has rules from leaving and returning to a Site. Look to see if they can help you.


Spreading the Damage around so none of your bars hit 0 and cause a Debility (is that the right term?), is a great help. If you do end up a Debility, that is significant to the story and warrants great cost.

Even if you do 'fail your quest', don't you have the option to pick it up again, harder and more serious?

---

Honestly, were it me, I would just engineer some way to Sojourn and fix the Out of Supply problem. You can do this in character --your character is also trying to fix this, after all-- or just deus ex machina it.

Either way it might cost you something. Maybe just time, maybe they (whoever you find to help) demand a price, complicate the situation, or reveal an unwelcome truth about what you are doing.

I think I may not have been clear enough on this. I always try to get my progress up to at least 8 before completing the 'progress bar', it's getting to that higher value that's the issue.
I kept getting misses on my rolls that up the progress bar value. So no progress was made, and on top of that you pay the price.
Yes, that's where I found the 4,3,3,2,2 stat line. :)
I do agree that a +4 stat seems to be a bit on the high side, though. With a few bonuses, you can score an 11 or 12 on a roll. Which is a bit silly. Maybe I'll tweak it a bit more and go for something like 3,3,2,2,1. I think that would already help greatly.
I definitely tried to do that, but at some point my supply went down to 1 (I think my health and spirit were at 3 at that time, so I picked to lower supply instead) and then I failed 2 resupply moves, after which a different move made me use supply.

I think I could squeeze in a sejourn move, the biggest issue I have with that move is "when you spend time...". Can this be just one night? Is this move interchangeable with "make camp" when not in the wilds? There's a pretty urgent vow I'm working on and time is not a luxury the character has right now.

I got myself into this mess, so I'll have to figure out how to get myself out :)
Thanks for the help!

Cool. While it is not the problem you describe later, it can still help to get that even higher.

At 8 (with that +4) there is still like a 30% chance of some failure, at 10 that drops to 10% with only 1% chance of all out failure.
Momentum can help with those. It often pays to focus on getting the Momentum up --dealing with the background incidentals of your journey or life-- before making the Moves that matter. This need not take more time in game, there is often plenty going on that we gloss over.
Wow, I don't remember it being that high. I did not check Lodestar again after running into trouble since I did not use it, my stat went up during play.
Spoiled the game for me. I would not do it again.

I notice that Starforged has removed the Assets that allow for these stat increases, and I think I agree with that decision.
Except that:
So there is always that one in ten chance of a miss on each dice.
Try it. See how it works. You can (in theory) always go back.

We tend to struggle with being generous to ourselves in places where we would easily have given such things to our players.
That could be the story telling you that you are in dire straights and need to change your course?

By the in-world fiction you are out of supply and that is slowing you down, making you less likely to succeed at your rescue. Stubbornly sticking to that, rather than trying to remedy your immediate issue, could cost you the prize. It may be hard for your character to realise this, but could make for a story and could prove a benefit in the end and allow you to succeed at your Vow. Obviously I don't know if there is anything in your Vow that precludes your taking a breather, ("I will not rest till ..." or something), but empowering yourself to finish is in service of the Vow.
To rest and get some supplies? I would say yes. That seems perfectly correct by the fiction. If you had to heal a broken leg or something then it would take weeks; if you were exhausted --drained of body and mind-- then it would take days; since it is a supply issue it could even be a matter of hours.

Check the detailed description and examples of the Move in the book to confirm, but that is how I would rule it unless otherwise stated. I look at the fiction and take it from there, and that timing works, no?
I would need to read the specifics, but I don't think so. But I don't think it is about time. I could even see Sojourn taking less time than Make Camp in some circumstance? Make Camp is always 'overnight', right?
Fixing the Supply problem may save you time in the long-run. But it is natural to not see that with a character's mission-focused-tunnel-vision. It may be hard for them to admit they need help.