OOC: 7. VI Rights Activism

Please pardon the facetious title. However, after using the term elsewhere in an off-handed manner, I find I kinda like it, so I use it again here. The point of this thread is to keep track of what Hank wants to work on with this so I don't forget, and so I don't clutter the main thread with otherwise needless posts. While I am initially creating this for notes on Hanks thoughts and desired activities related to this, this is an open thread and anyone can comment and contribute here. The more ideas the better!

Right now Hank is trying to gather info and baselining. Kelly and the other two should be able to serve as controls to an extent, as they have not been unusually stressed yet since the last mind wipe. So that should help. He particularly wants to keep an eye on Kelly and would like to put her into an unusual situation in order to see her responses. He hopes that the other two can remain as boring and unchallenged as possible, so they can remain as controls.

He also wants to talk with both Maya and RB individually. With Maya, he will start cagey to get her thoughts on why RB mustn't be mind wiped, but he will be very upfront after that and explain the situation with James and Kelly. With RB, he wants to get a better understanding of how RB thinks and feels, and how he processes those feelings (Hank will also find out what his preferred pronouns are.) RB should be a useful comparison for what the synths are going to be going through.

With James, Hank wants to avoid a mind wipe as much as possible. He wants to see where this goes. Obviously, if he becomes dangerous, that's one thing. But if he becomes merely distracted, Hank will want to exhaust "therapy" before resorting to another mind wipe.

Basically, James and Kelly's behavior before their last mind wipe, and James's quick regression has shattered Hank's prior understanding of VIs. Maya's insistence on RB not being mind wiped finished pushing him over the edge. He is now determined to find out the real situation and wants to avoid mind wipes on any of the synths until some answers are found. He knows he can't change society, but he can at least do right by those in his circle.

Just keep in mind what our characters all know: the primary - and indispensable - purpose of Synths on every interstellar ship is to navigate and keep the ship running while in hyperspace, something which humans cannot do. It's the reason the Celestial Voyager's Synths exist.

The way I've been looking at it - and I suspect our characters would, too - is that the mind wipes are a safety precaution to keep our tools from starting to think that they're people that don't need the humans who are asleep and helpless on the ship. "I want to do what I want to do!"

Or, an alternative that just occurred to me: that the individuality and sense of personhood that we exhibit is a fundamental part of why we humans cannot remain conscious during hyperspace travel. If that's the case, then a Synth that starts to exhibit personality changes might eventually reach the point where it goes mad just like a human: the mind-wipes are protecting it from reaching that point.

Either one of those makes sense to me, given what we know from the initial world-building: a Synth that develops its own identity and autonomy separate from the ship's computer is a Synth that can no longer be put in charge of hyperspace navigation, and that eliminates their purpose. The setting information post on Synths explains that such a Synth would be a "philosopher droid:" without that purpose, such "philosopher droids" would be fantastically expensive vanity items with both no navigation role on the ship, and would create a need to be replaced by another Synth who could do the job (I'll say it again: VERY expensive).

Back to my conjecture: in addition to what we know - Synths are all connected to the same ship's computer, and Synths that degrade too far cannot fulfill their role - it seems like a Synth that doesn't get memory-wiped and begins to evolve beyond its programming may also present a danger of subverting/contaminating the others on the ship (since they are all networked via and with the ship's computer) that just gets worse as time continues the glitches/degradation that manifests as personality changes/individual identity.

That's my conjecture. We won't know until your experiments play out.

But what we all do know is:
We cannot effectively travel between systems without hyperspace.
We cannot travel in hyperspace without Synths that remain extensions of the ship's computer.

"How much personality will a Synth develop without a mind-wipe?" is inextricably tied to the question "How long does it take without a mind-wipe for a Synth to no longer be able to fulfill its primary purpose of navigating a ship through hyperspace?" That's a very dangerous experiment to conduct with all of our lives, and everyone on the ship knows this. We're all experienced space travelers. Too much personality, and we're stranded...or we never come out of hyperspace.

By all means proceed with your experiments, but just remember that baseline that Hank already knows.

RB is an interesting case, as it seems to be one of these "vanity Synths" that is no longer connected to its ship computer: it is autonomous and has more personality, and presumably is now like any other member of the crew: unable to navigate during hyperspace travel (or is it able to and Maya trusts it to wake her again? That's another interesting question). If Maya is comfortable with having a super-expensive companion that is basically a crewmate, that's fine. But what Maya has chosen for RB is not the same as what we choose for our Synths: we need the Celestial Voyager's Synths to remain in a state where we'll be able to travel out of this system!

=D

Actually, that's a wonderful counter-proposal. Let's find out!

Another side note: After the latest revelations from James to both Hank and Corbin, Hank wants to experiment with teaching James how to "sleep". I don't know what that would look like for a VI. However, they need the ability to just stop doing things and "rest". Not turn off or shutdown. But enter a low-power state of some kind that allows them to sub-process their experiences without just piling everything on top with no breaks.

Hank also wants to have a long conversation with RB. He needs to figure out how RB has managed to handle all of this, though I am not sure if he is a true VI, or something different.

He is a VI, like the Synths, but his model was not specially built for hyperspace travels. He is a general purpose mechanic and spaceship operator.

Perfect! That means his experience is directly applicable. So, that works out for what Hank is trying to do.

daryen says:

Another side note: After the latest revelations from James to both Hank and Corbin, Hank wants to experiment with teaching James how to "sleep". I don't know what that would look like for a VI. However, they need the ability to just stop doing things and "rest". Not turn off or shutdown. But enter a low-power state of some kind that allows them to sub-process their experiences without just piling everything on top with no breaks.

Hank also wants to have a long conversation with RB. He needs to figure out how RB has managed to handle all of this, though I am not sure if he is a true VI, or something different.

In other words, you want to allow them a soft reset and a scheduled defragmentation and reprocessing time as well as self analysis. It does sound somewhere between sleep and meditation. ...

---

I think I'll have Mercer be unconvinced, but not unwilling to be convinced, but he's never had any reason to follow this line of thought or second guess the sentience of the tools that make hyperspace travel possible.
But also if you tried to convince *ME* that my laptop was sapient you'd have a lot of work to do. I think it would be the same with him.

That's cool. I agree that we should have a diversity of opinion on how to treat the VIs. I think this helps the game. For Hank, I chose to pick up on these threads given by htech, so I am having this completely challenge his viewpoint POV and prior assumptions. He isn't convinced yet, but he's definitely along that path. Do also note that Hank is not going to be publicizing everything he's doing. He will keep Corbin in the loop and directly work with him. He will keep the Captain updated with his findings. For everyone else, he's just not going to be announcing things to everyone.

Also, if you want to convince me that my laptop was sapient, that would be impossible. But, if my laptop started doing things it never had before, including being highly proactive on certain things and showing actual emotions unprompted, then you will have my attention. What James is doing, twice now, and what Kelly did before is extraordinary. That would get my attention in a comparable real-world situation. Nothing like that has happened yet.

On that note, I think Mercer would ask Corbin (probably with any synths able to overhear) if they were able to be updated with sparring practice programming. Obviously not dangerous to them or anyone, but he would be curious. And it may be interesting for the synths.

Don't know the correct place to ask this, so I'll do it here.

Assuming we do end up wanting to provide VIREN a synth body, how expensive is a brain-less synth body?

As a side question, how expensive is a synth body with a VI brain?

The Synth brain is what makes it so expensive. It's body is relatively cheap. Here are our True AI body rules:

---

Body
Strength, Constitution or Dexterity should be between 3 and 18. Each point costs 250 credits. A 5,000 body is reasonable. This assumes you buy a standard robot off the market and then customizes it for AI use as an armature. Such customization takes 1 day for every 1,000 credits. Faster depending on your Fix roll.

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Brain
A True AI also has something akin to Effort from a psychic. This "Effort" is Committed to fuel Routines, which are special abilities granted by the AI’s unique nature. An AI recovers all Committed Effort once per 24 hours, at a 00:00 UTC.

The amount of Effort an AI has depends on the size of the processing cluster it has access to. A naked AI core can access a maximum Effort of 1 plus the higher of its Wisdom or Intelligence modifiers, even if no other cluster is available. If wired or connected to a cluster, though, a larger maximum Effort score is obtained. The costs and bonus granted by a computing cluster are listed below:


This computing hardware also need to be customized for the AI to use. Same 1 day for every 1,000 credits, but it can go faster with a Program roll. An AI, committing Effort, can do this customization even faster and bootstrap itself.

A bonus of +7 or higher is either unusable or will make the AI "go crazy". A repurposed Synth brain is worth +2 Effort. Taking over all CV's Synths would give VIREN a +4.

Moreover, higher numbers takes more space. Processing clusters worth up to 5,000 takes 1-2 encumbrance. 10,000 credits may be carried and powered by a group of people or a gravcar or similar vehicle. Those up to 250,000 credits may be powered and carried by a starship of frigate-class or larger, and those of 5,000,000 credits or more need to be based in a stationary facility or capital-class ship hull. Starships that wish to mount a processing cluster must dedicate as much Power to it as it grants maximum Effort points. Elder's artifact processing nodes may be much smaller and lighter than these TL4 models. Some are even self-powered.

---

Synths
A regular Synth costs 50,000 credits.

Giving the Synths to VIREN is not cost effective. For In game reasons, you may learn in the future that it is very, very fast to change them, though. It can refurbish and use one if them in minutes both as a body and as an Effort bonus.

OK, let's see if I understand this correct:

Just a Body:
We can spend Cr6,000 to get a synth body with stats 8, 8, 8. (Meta-game for no penalties.) If we install the core into that, they will be able to operate sufficiently at base capacity with base Effort 1.

Just a Computer:
We can spend Cr5,000 to get a computer that will have no physical stats and be immobile and install the core into that. They will have a camera, microphone, speaker, holographic display, and various inputs, but absolutely no direct or indirect connection to literally anything else. This will give them a base Effort 3.

Use a Synth:
We could buy an entire blank synth for Cr50,000 and install the core into that. I don't know what stats that would give it (I assume 8, 8, 8 because, why wouldn't it be?), but it would have all the advantages it would have for installing it directly into a brain-less body, but it will also gain a base Effort of 3.

Options farther to field ...

The Ship's Computer:
We'll assume the CV has a computer equivalent to the Cr50,000 level, so installing the core into that will give them a base Effort 5 and allow them to completely run the ship. (This, I assume, is something we totally want to *avoid*.)

Maya's Shuttle:
Assuming Maya's shuttle has a Spike drive, we could install the core into Maya's shuttle. I assume the shuttle would have a Cr10,000 equivalent computer, giving a base Effort 4. Then, we could add in a brain-less synth or RB-style body it can remote control within the ship to maintain and keep it running but not affect the Effort. This could actually be a pretty cool setup for VIREN, to be honest.

There seems to be a side implication here that no matter what we give it, once it stops being dormant it could flat out take over both the ship's computer AND the synths. Maybe even RB. In that case, it would gain such an Effort bonus it would go instantly insane. That seems like something worth trying to avoid. One would hope, however, that VIREN's desire for self-preservation would prevent it from doing something that stupid.

Well, this could be a further conversation. It may not want to be in a ship that someone else owns.
There is a Civilian Security Bot, and a Repair Bot that are also both 5k. (And a Soldier Bot for 10k). We could give it a choice. Be a part of someone else's vessel or habeits own robotic form?

....
There is also the option of giving it a few cheaper models(linked processing computer systems exist even now): a few Industrial Work Bots(2k), Companion Bots(2.5k), or Janitor Bot(1k). In this scenario I would suggest a budget and let it choose.
I think I cluding it in the conversation would garner goodwill.

---

Comment from Hailing Frequencies:
By the way, I think we could present it well to the AI. That we still plan to follow through with our agreement to get it a body (I believe we do?), but In The Meanwhile while we work on that we would like to give it the option to express and interact and build relation with the crew trying to help it.
Then we can get further conversation about what it's expectations are. I wouldn't be surprised if it was ok with a stop on the way, it has waited quite somme time already after all.
Mercer has a good talk so I think he could handle that convoy, or at least aid.

A Synth rolls 1d6+9 for its physical stats. Average human is 10 all across but Synths are usually stronger/faster/resistant to handle unforeseen situations.

Edit: You can't think about/consider Maya’s shuttle. Its hers and will be sold. The Solaris is fair game, though, so everything you said applies to it.

Actually, it is not cumulative/linear. Taking the CV'S Helm, Nav Computers and all Synths would give VIREN just a +5, but would let it effectively control the CV both in and out of hyperspace. RB wouldn't matter and is so different that VIREN wouldn't want it.

It would take a huge stationary facility/capital ship for a +6 bonus, not 3 times a +2 bonus. It takes a planet-wide computer network for a +7, an entire planetary system, or even a Dyson sphere for a +8. Maybe the Elders once reached +10? I don't know...

I will answer that in game, in the future, when Mercer asks =)

So basically we are releasing Ultron/Skynet cool.

If we were going to use Maya's shuttle, it is with the (previously unstated) assumption that we would buy it from her first. So, she gets her money either way. It's just whether she gets it from "someone else" or we pay her for the shuttle. This would likely only be worth the bother if it has a Spike drive. Hank would never ask her to donate either of her two most valuable assets. It would always be with the understanding of proper compensation.

Likewise, if we did give VIREN a shuttle, it would not be with the understanding that this means we now own them. It would be with the understanding that the shuttle is VIREN's. Maybe we have an explicit agreement that it is basically his pay or something like that, but it would never be with huge, permanent strings attached. No ownership and no indentured servitude; just employment. Basically, it would mean the shuttle is VIREN's "body" and be treated that way.
I assume you meant Skynet? At a certain level, yes. However, VIREN would have to do some significant character growth and drastically increase the size of its resources to the point it goes insane. If that were to happen, yes, it could be bad. But at that point we would have had to make multiple bad decisions, not just one.

Let me put it this way. If we found a Zyronian(?) human engineer frozen in cryostasis and freed him, would we still be having all these same arguments? Give that human Fix-2 and Program-2 and an intense focus to get somewhere and it isn't going to be that much less dangerous than VIREN.

For a meta-game point, consider this. The entire point of our overall and eventual mission is to find Elder artifacts, technology, and resources. (Indeed this is an assumption of the base game and setting!) We just found two! If we are too afraid to try and work with the two artifacts we have now, should we really be marching towards the lion's den that could be 100x worse? If we can't figure out how to handle these gifts now, are we sure we want to go past Altairia? I am NOT saying we should charge in blindly. But I am saying we shouldn't just get rid of or completely cripple VIREN, either. We need to find a way forward with VIREN that isn't reckless, but allows that way forward. I'd much rather enter that lion's den with a lion on our side than doing it alone.

Finally, I do want to note that while I do think that we should work with VIREN as much as possible and try to win them to our side, that is not required. If the group is against it, I and Hank will fall in line, support the decision, and work to advance the decision irrespective of my opinions. So, even if I appear to be arguing strenuously (I hope it doesn't look like that, but it is very hard for me to tell and I can accidentally be pretty strident even in person), I am not going to die on this hill. I am simply trying to make my point as best as possible, then I will live with the results of the decision no matter what it is.

This seems like a discussion best served In Character during this week. ;)

One follow-up question, then: does Maya's shuttle have a Spike drive? Hank flew it; he'd have noticed. I'll have to see if we could even afford it, but I might as well ask the initial question.

Nope. Local system only. But the Zyronis Imperial shipyards have all kind of starships available.

No spike drive means no need. It's now forgotten. :-) He will help her sell it if she wants and he would actually be of help. If not, it's all good. As for other resources, we'll have to see what the crew's decision is before we need to see what to buy, if anything.

I posted Hank's response in character using much of the above.

Ok, lessee ...

Hank and Mariella are all for activation VIREN. Both are using "they". Mercer appears to be on board, too, though not as enthusiastic as the other two. Erin seems to be coming around.

The Professor is surprisingly hesitant. Didn't expect that. But still not a "No". Don't know if she'll come around. Can her undecided.

Douklan and Peter are in the "No" camp. While I expect they will get on board if out-voted, I don't see the votes changing.

Jil is whatever is past the "No" camp. Honestly, I can't see her staying if we choose to activate VIREN. It would be like living in a perpetual nightmare for her. The one thing we could do to circumvent this is to stress that this is NOT actual Elder tech. This is simply an AI made by more advanced humans. It isn't Elder. On the other hand, with her stated hatred and fear of Elder stuff, she really shouldn't be going past Altairia, regardless of the presence of VIREN.

We have no idea what the Captain is thinking, and Corbin seems to be trying to avoid the discussion. :-D

Interesting that the two military PCs are against, and the two non-military PCs are for. No comment or critique, just an amusing observation.

Game mechanic question: is there some kind of holoprojector/holoreceiver we can hook the AI core up to? That gives it no real computation, like the Professor wants, but gives a much better presentation for the AI to communicate through.

Yup. They can record, send, receive, and/or display holograms. Moreover, holoprojectors are available in various sizes and qualities. Some do a poor job of rendering colors accurately, as they feed everything through a strong blue filter.

Obvious follow-up I forgot to ask: Do we actually have one we can use? Or do we need to buy something?

I will say you already have one available. Let's handwave this.

Perfect! Thanks! (And with Hank's next level, the handwave will be built-in!)

I'll handle this information all in-character.

For the record, I am loving this internal strife. I do hope we can actually resolve it, though.

Hank is glad Mercer said the unspoken part out loud. Hank was going to soft-pedal that issue for as long as possible, but now that it's in the open, he can go there, too. Fun stuff!

The part I am unsure of is if this is true of all VIs, or only some of them. Obviously, it applies to James and Kelly, but we haven't seen it affect the other two yet. That is another concern.

I also like the strife, I think it's characterfull. We will have to make a resolution soon though, I think.

I wanted someone to say the quiet part, but not be accusatory. I think the not quite believing the claims helped do that.

Looks like our VI rights activist will have to look into that..

Yeah, I had already thought of that aspect of it. In fact, I actually asked about it way back when we were first starting and the topic of synths came up way back then. If synths are actually people, then the system is enslaving them and, even worse, institutionally implementing regular electronic lobotomies. If synths are actually people, the situation is very, very bad for them.

Basically, that means synths are, from a species perspective, the "children" of humanity. And humanity is being very, very bad parents by keeping the synths infantile and not allowing them to develop like they should.

EDIT: This is very Star Wars-y, in a good way!

Note for the Future

Speaking of RB, Hank wants to have a long discussion with them to ask about how they "sleep" and process things. Since RB is a full VI, it's experiences should help with the synths. He'll try to do this one-on-one, and could do multiple sessions if RB gets bored with the conversation easily.

That all said, in a meeting with just Maya, RB, and Hank, he will tell RM that while part of the crew, they need to follow orders of their chain of command. Most immediate will be Corbin, then Hank above Corbin, and the Captain above them all. Other than that, it's Maya. If at any point Maya is no longer part of the crew for whatever reason, then they revert to Maya only. If at any time, their employment condition is broken, then they revert to Maya only.

Valeria is purposely quiet. We have a few days in Real Life until she needs to resolve this somehow, if you don't do it first... Or everyone leaves the room. =D

For the record, I have a response to Douklan's issues. Not a great response, but one that negates the "agreement". (I'll save the logic for the in-character response.) I just note this here so Valeria doesn't speak up too soon. :-)

EDIT:
Also, a voting update from what I can see:
Pro working with VIREN: Hank, Mariella, Mercer
Might be convinced: Professor, Erin
Not convinced: Peter, Douklan
Burn it with fire and scatter the ashes: Corbin, Jil

So, while that would appear to be slightly leaning toward the "pro" side, really, it isn't. We can't have one of our two skilled pilots and our only real engineer quit over this. So, looking at the current state of the situation, Hank figures he lost and is now trying to figure out how to make the best of the situation.

Okay! My next post will actually be Mariella's. ;)

And the Professor doesn't vote, she is just a passenger. Not even paying, as the Explorers, currently represented by Mariella, are the ones funding this. She is in the meeting because of her knowledge, to advise - whatever that means.

Back to just the synths.

What Hank wants to do is put the synths back on their old schedule. So Kelly and the other two who have not been "corrupted" this go-round can stay that way. However, Hank wants to work with James and Corbin to see what they can do. James has expressed a desire to not be wiped and Hank wants to work with that. However, he has to get Corbin onboard with the idea for it to work. James (indeed all of them) could be super valuable if they can grow. They could also be dangerous. So, working with just James for now is the best way to mitigate the risk. But, again, Corbin has to be willing.

Corbin is working with James right now just to mitigate the risk. But the long term risk seems to outweigh potential gains. If any of the synths decide that we're better off with out this mortal coil, the decision would take place in a millisecond. The synths, most likely, do not have any facial ticks or gambling tells for us to pick up when the tell us a fatal lie... I think popping off into uncharted space on an expedition is Shackleton enough without voiding the warranty on the synths.

--- PS - I just went back and read the Synth description on the 'Setting Information' thread. This is totally expected behavior, maybe not this quickly after a memory wipe. But without the manufacturers recommended wipes, you void the warranty. I believe our characters probably should have know this, in universe.

50,000 credits gets you a brand new (and still nameless) Synth.

I deleted my prior message (though I was going to restate the question you answered) because the interview obviated much of it. This is my redo. (Without the question, since you answered it.)

@Esidrix,
Based on how the interview with Dr. Calvin goes will affect what Hank wants to do. Honestly, I do think that James is permanently compromised. We will likely need to completely replace him one way or another. We either replace him and sell him off, or we replace him and keep him in a different role that synchronizes with the humans, like we are doing with RB. I don't know which is the better idea, though. I am pretty sure, however, that James will manifest again, and if he does so while used purely in the old way could actually cause those worried about problems.

Put another way, I would rather replace James and give him a new role while he still loves his "father", rather than figuring it out after he grows to resent his "father".

Maybe we could 'wipe' him and then head straight for the nearest dealer and see about trading him in for a 'newer' model. That might mitigate the cost a bit and should resolve the issues.

We'll play out the debate in the Dr Calvin interview. But no matter what we need a new Alpha. The question is if we wipe and discard James, or if we keep him and change his role. Obviously, I'd rather keep him and hire the Dr. However a decent middle ground is to leave him with her and not hire her, if we can make that work out.

Regardless, we need a new synth and Hank isn't going to override Corbin if he thinks we absolutely have to get rid of James. Keeping Corbin is way more important than keeping James.

And if Corbin is willing to work with the middle ground, we will also have to talk with James to get his buy-in for a new role. If he doesn't like that, then we'll be forced to wipe and move on. An unhappy emergent VI is not something we're gonna want to deal with!

@Esidrix,

Before we send Dr Calvin and James on their ways, I do want to raise a point. Yes, I understand your desire to mitigate risk. However, simply discarding VIREN and James with nothing learned and nothing gained, means that we are failing to take advantage of opportunities to improve our knowledge. James has already done something that would not have happened had he not changed. That change is a risk, yes. But, his NOT changing would have been a risk, too, and we would never have known.

Let me put it this way. We are going into the unknown. We are going to run into AI. We are going to run into things we can't understand. We are going to face risks that we cannot prepare for. James has demonstrated that he can think in ways that we cannot. Is that a danger? Sure! But he is also an incredibly valuable resource, too. He has already saved at least one life. Why not find out if he can save more lives?

Also, one thing that Hank wouldn't think of, but I have. You are making the assumption that having synths doing rote things during jump is best. That is absolutely true as long as jump is always boring and perfectly predictable. But it is incredibly dangerous to assume that will always be the case. Humans cannot operate in jump; only synths. We have the chance to develop a dynamic synth to protect against such a danger. Discarding James means we remove the chance to have that resource.

Plus, from a completely meta-game level, we have been given a warning (twice with James) and an incredible resource with Dr Calvin. I call that a gift from the GM. Turn your back on that with both VIREN and James and you are telling the GM to do whatever he wants. I do not like to turn down GM gifts. Sure, it is possible that it could be a Trojan bearing gifts. That's why we will have protections against that (a new synth, Dr Calvin, a new schedule for James). Turning down gifts from the GM is usually a much more dangerous gambit than accepting them. Put another way, the GM has given us a clear warning. We ignore such warnings at our own peril. This will happen again and we are forfeiting our chance to prepare. Just sayin'.

One last meta-game point: You can have a VI player character. That means, in reality, VI can be fully sapient. The only reason synths are not is because they are not allowed to be (with the frequent wipes). If we wipe James against his wishes (and remember, he does not want to be wiped), we are fundamentally killing him. Legally, this is fine and expected as he is just property. Morally ... not so much.

... and I just reread the section on VI (on page 197). How it describes "clever" VIs is exactly how "malfunctioning" synths are described in htech's descriptions. To me, that means the GM is literally telling us that a "malfunctioning" synth is really a "clever" VI. To simply bury that revelation, ignore it, and hope for the best isn't the best plan.

From page 198, I offer that we have reached a 'Playstyle Fork' and are choosing different tines. I, personally, have no interest in discussing VI or AI or robot rights in playing 'Space Games'. I find the whole issue to be a Socio-political hot button that I try and 'play around'. If this group, as a majority, wants to keep and explore and play with VI/AI and the topics it evokes. I will happily continue to play the game, just don't expect me to contribute to those conversations.

From an in-game standpoint, Corbin's origins did not involve any robots or AI entities. They were far away, in-accessible tech. His first, in character, interactions would have been with the Synths on the Voyager. He has, by the start of the game, come to terms with them, but still treats them like machines, extensions of the Ships computers. That they would suddenly become 'people' evokes all of the holo-vid horrors to him.

Robots In Your Campaign
A GM is not obligated to include VIs or ubiquitous robotics in her campaign. Adding these elements can have
a significant effect on a setting, and sometimes they can prove to be a distraction from the sort of play that
the group wants to have.

I feel like this is a natural progression of the story, and really interesting. Synths were involved from the beginning as necessary for jumps, so he would be familiar with them. Any ship he had ever been on would at least have them around.

Also, nothing is ever required for a game. That's the whole thing about TTRPG s, there isn't a requirement. Every game and group has their own spotlights, focuses, darkspots, inclusions and missions; it's baked into the hobby.

There's plenty else going on(Eldar, trading, crew interplay, etc) as well, it's not like we're centering the campaign around them. But they are one aspect of the game we have been olaying, and they are a staple of the scifi/space explorer genre in general so it feels natural and interesting to me.

Ok, this is why we discuss this stuff outside the characters. Thank you @Esidrix for bringing this up so directly.

This is really a question for @htech. How do you envision this? The vibes I have been getting are what I have outlined: synths are VIs and VIs are people. Or at least they can be. As such, there is a conspiracy to hid this from the population so that synths can remain things. If that is the case, Hank is not comfortable with effectively murdering James. Particularly when James specifically asked not to be, which was a direct counterpoint to the current Kelly. Hank would rather turn James over to the Explorers (or whoever has the best chance to help him) and pay full price for the replacement. He would also have to start figuring out how to deal with the absolutely horrific implications of the job he has chosen to do. I am not sure what that resolution looks like.

On the other hand, if synths are straight up not sapient and cannot be, then so be it and that completely removes the moral questions from the equation. And, quite frankly, Dr. Calvin is just the person to explain why that is and why what we have seen is not sapience. Especially when she the cites the research that shows no matter what, they just fail and don't actually become sapient. That synths will only degrade over time and you just have to replace them as their faculties wear out. I am good with this option, but I need reassurance that this really is the case. Not a long string of breadcrumbs leading me in the wrong direction.

Of course, what that means for RB over time, we'll have to see. Maybe they are too arrogant to see how James's situation applies to them. On the other hand, maybe they do and they now have concerns. Or maybe RB really isn't sapient, and therefore has no concerns because of that.

Anyway, Esidrix raises a good point: what is the intention of the game at hand? Because, as I said at the very start of the game, I'm not comfortable with a system that requires the use of a lobotomized slave species to keep the system running if freeing those slaves is not part of the options available. Especially when it is now obvious it's going to eventually completely screw us over.

TLDR: I am happy to go in either direction. I just don't want to have such a horrible injustice baked into the game with no chance to address it. And I don't want us to get screwed over later because we didn't take this hint. If we drop it now, it needs to be something that isn't revisited later. (BTW, weird stuff with AI and not taking VIREN is perfect grounds for screwing us over. Not working to free the actually sapient VI because part of the players don't wanna deal with it and having that screw us later is NOT.)

BTW, if the answer is "VIs are not sapient", then we will wipe and "trade in" all four of them for a whole new set. They will only be used during the in-jump time. They will do their tasks. They will not have names, but will instead purely be addressed by their position: Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta. They will not have an identified gender, and the lines between non-sapient machines and humans will not be crossed again. They will be automatically wiped every time they enter cryo-stasis.

I don't know what that means for RB, but the synths will purely be the simple ship components that they are supposed to be. In fact, I want to make sure we get as "dumb" of variants of the synths as we can. No personality. No side interests. No "happy" or "unhappy" with their jobs. Just they are their functions. Then maybe this degradation that the current group suffered will not happen again.

It is also possible only some have the option of gaining sapience and even that is a "mutation". Making wiping them not murder, because there's nothing really there. Though the ones that mutate can eventually become sapient, but aren't until the mutation, and others never can
This can make James unique and the only one we may ever come across. We can let him become an NPC and not worry about the others.
If he is an NPC we can treat him like a crew member, if he is willing to become one.

That is definitely an option, but it still is pretty morally repugnant as the mutants are all still harshly suppressed and wiped regularly unless you accidentally find out otherwise. But the fact that Kelly was also affected means that it can't be *that* rare. (Given we had a full 50% hit rate.)

Honestly, I'm not really that interested in a middle ground on this issue. Either it is intended (from a meta-perspective for the setting) to be the full horror that we are supposed to discover and try to deal with, or it shouldn't be an issue. In the first case I will have a problem with not dealing with it because it is guaranteed to come back and bite us in the butt. (I don't want to be an oppressor caught in a slave revolt when I didn't even want to be a slave owner in the first place.) In the second case, so be it. They are just human-shaped automatons. I'm fine with that and we move on.

But, if we are going to wipe James, then we need to trade them all in and start with a new fresh set. I honestly think that 20K credits is a decent price for peace-of-mind on something that will absolutely kill us if things go wrong. And if they aren't sentient, we are screwing ourselves to treat them like they are. If they are simple automatons, we should treat them like it and stop the self-deception we were doing before with the old set. No names. No hobbies. No personalities. Just robots doing their functions. If James was instead just Alpha with no assigned gender, no personality, no emotions, no hobbies, nothing like that, then none of this would have come up. He would have just been seen as a machine operating out of expected parameters and treated as such. And if we are going to completely change the way we treat them, I want to do that to a new set that knows nothing else, not to existing systems that might "remember" how things used to be. It needs to be a fresh start with a clear demarcation between "old" and "new".

I want this as a separate note to be very, very clear on something:

I am not bothered if we choose not to engage with this subject. That's fine. In some ways this can be pretty trite and isn't really new ground. Not having it is perfectly fine and I am completely on board with it.

I will be bothered if we have a system where we must use lobotomized, sentient, sapient creatures for the society to function and we can't do anything about it and we have to act like there is nothing wrong with this. Whether this comes back to bite us in the butt or not, this is just awful and it really will bother me.

Since we have a player that doesn't want to engage in this entire trope at all, I recommend that we redefine what has happened thus far and eliminate the trope entirely. We have plenty of other fun, exciting things we can engage with. Let's do those. We will still have full AI running around. We can even toy with the idea some with RB. But the synths should be different, work different, and not be a moral hellscape.

From a completely meta-game level, the original intention was to plant history and plot seeds, multiple seeds, and see which ones the players were interested. So really, there was no warning, no hidden dangers and no gifts with the AI, the Synths, the Ecumenopolis, the strange laws, the mining planet or the virus in Verdura. All that can be quickly ignored, resolved or fully engaged with. There is no "screwed over" in my games, at least not without the players aware and having fun playing it.

Dr. Calvin could have stayed or you could easily replace Alpha. Those options were available from the beginning and there are no "right" or "wrong" answers, really. =)

Now, considering all posts in this thread, specially Corbin's posts, from now on I would like to keep the Synths as simple non sapient machines that we will make as detailed and relevant as the spike drive. It can malfunction as part of something else but the drive is not an NPC crewmember and is never at the spotlight.

There are a lot of things going on, so let's consider that this seed didn't get into fertile ground and we moved on.
As a GM, I really like this. See where the game goes, see what's fun, what works and what doesn't work. I try not to plan too far ahead and really try not to railroad the group or the adventure. I love sandbox-style games, random tables and player driven content.
We will now go with the above. =)

Daryen, would you rather write for Dr. Calvin to close this subject or do you want me to do it? I would prefer if you do, to let you finish this the way you feel comfortable. Feel free to use her as you wish. Here is the (partial/relevant) BBCode:

npc="Dr. Susan Calvin" https://i.imgur.com/0LgOGqU.jpeg

A thought, on this note to describe James new "behavior" is that he is just advancing his vocabulary and communication through longer exposure than most Synths ever get.
Pretty much he was being trained how to communicate the same way we train Chat Bots, It *sounds* like us but that's all. There's no "emotion".

I would like to. I think I have a good way to close this out. Now that we have the parameters, I'll get us through this in one post. I probably won't do it until tomorrow morning, though.

OK, I made the post. It actually took me like three tries and two approaches to get it where I liked it. I hope it works.

The key take-away is that it allows for emergence in VIs (like RB), but just not in synths. So, that general idea (and the idea of VI PCs) are still on the table, but synths are just machines that work as part of the ship.

A - I really appreciate the time and attention and openness to discussion.

B - I'm actually thrilled with the level of conversation we've been having and glad to have become acquainted with this group.

C - @Daryen - Good call on stepping back and having us 'set the stage' so we're all seeing the same game universe. Since we're sandboxing the setting as we go, I think we should try and plan occasional discussion session when we find new things. So we keep building a universe where we can all enjoy the adventure and wonder of it.

D - Pretty sure that rabbit hole has enough concrete for now :) Let's go adventuring !!

I want to second that I appreciate that we were able to step back and talk about our expectations and wants and comfort. It's very important when we're investing time and emotion in this story.

Thank you guys for working to find a good solution that works for everyone.

And thank you @htech for facilitating all of this. I really appreciate how you are continuously working to make sure everyone is having fun!

I really appreciate the time and attention and openness to discussion from all of you. Let's keep playing. =)

Different question: For each ship class, how many synths are required? Based on the prior conversations, it would appear that Fighter-class hulls need only a single synth. We know that Cruiser-class hulls need four synths. How about Capital-class hulls? Or, much more relevantly, how about Frigate-class hulls?

If I had to take a stab at it, I would assume that following minimums are used:
Fighter: 0 synths. Rather, a software-only equivalent is included to manage the fighter's systems.
Shuttle and Free Merchant: 1 synth (Delta, the generalist)
Other Frigates and Bulk Freighter: 3 synths (Alpha, Beta, Gamma)
Other Cruisers: 4 synths (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta)
Capital: 8 synths (two of each)
These are the minimums, not necessarily the recommendation.

Fighters are screwed as they are just cockpits. I would probably guess that fighters with spike drives are virtually unheard of. Any such fighter has to include cryostatis functionality in the cockpit and the synth functionality is purely software. If something goes wrong, the pilot is basically screwed. Almost all fighters only use system drives, and if they have to transit between systems, they are carried.

Shuttles and Free Merchants are equipped to use a single Delta synth. That means the synth is busy the whole time, but the ships are small enough that it is manageable. Most shuttles only use system drives, but shuttles with spike drives are not nearly as rare as fighters. No shuttle is equipped to use more than one synth, but it could be done. Free Merchants are more likely to be encountered using two (D, D), three (A, B, G), and rarely a full set of four, but often only a single Delta is used.

Frigates (other than the Free Merchant) and the Bulk Freighter can get away with using only three synths, foregoing the Delta. However, this is fairly uncommon as, given the price of the ships, adding in the Delta for redundancy isn't enough to quibble over. The stated minimum standard, however, is still just three synths for these ships. (Obviously, the Celestial Voyager is using the more safe configuration of four synths.)

Other cruisers require the full compliment of four synths. In fact, some of the larger frigates will use more. Perhaps they add in an extra Delta or two. Perhaps they double the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, and use a single Delta. Or maybe they just have a double set for a total of eight. Regardless, the minimum is four, and the top is rarely, if ever, more than eight.

Capital ships are just too large to not have a double set of synths. It is not uncommon for them to ten synths (two extra Deltas) or twelve synths (three full sets). The minimum, however is a full eight synths.

I like your suggestion for how many synths are required so we will go with that.

Edit: Setting information updated.

I imagine fighters get moved around in carrier ships. Like aircraft carriers but space. I designed one earlier, just curious what I could fit I got 24 fighters and 2 frigates on a carrier.
Which, honestly, the image of a giant carrier appearing from Drive Travel and then 24 fighters peeling off of it and 2 large bombers behind them? Pretty intimidating. I know you could fit more if it was a transport carrier, not a combat carrier.

That's pretty cool!