Out of Character Talk

Use this place to talk about character creation and other talk that is always assumed to be out of character.

So... what characters do people have in mind?

I am thinking of pulling out my old friend, Bells the Bard. Lovely woman that announces her presence with the jingling sound of bells wrapped around her calves.

Please take the time to vote and comment in the session 0 thread if you have not already. If there are any other session 0 topics you want to bring up please do, especially if they are about topics which most pertain to play by post gaming

If I pick variant human and a feat is being allowed for all races, does that mean that I would start with two feats?

Yes, but please keep in mind that I would prefer you "free" feat you all get to not be one of the optimal feats. I like the idea of the free feat being that one you wanted but couldn't justify since you get so few feats. If you use the free feat to get the strong feats like polearm master, sentinel, sharpshooter/great weapon master, and the like, I may reconsider the free feat for future one shots (thought that won't change this one).

I don't consider feats like healer, tough, magic initiate, skilled, or such to be these "optimal feats", even though they add power.

Gotcha but nothing to worry about, I haven't a clue on how to optimize a character but flavor....THAT I can do!

I am thinking of a human warlock with an archfey patron but is mostly a blaster. any primary casters want to discus so limit overlap?

I’m thinking sorlock chainmaster

I'm considering an aasimar aberrant mind sorcerer, a higher level variant of a character I'm playing in another one shot. He'll be focused on mental effects and crowd control with a few blasty bits in there.

I'm also considering Telekinetic as my bonus feat. I only want it for the subtle invisible Mage Hand to live out the Jean Grey fantasy :P, so I can do away with the rest of the feat if it's too powerful for the bonus feat 'cool factor' concept.

With everyone looking at running casters, I might focus on a martial build with a multiclass to really dish out the damage.

Might need some magical support though, depending on what we face.

I might join MaJunior but go defensive/body guard . dragonbprn fighter champion

I was all set to take V. Human until I had an epiphany... shenanigans incoming.

Edit: Would the Mobile feat be an optimization feat or a flavor feat?

It's kind of on the borderline. It should be ok, though depending on what you're playing it can be one of the stronger feats, especially if you are a monk or rogue

Hm... I might skip it then.

Keep in mind you can take mobile with your ASI from lv 4, 8, or 12

One quick request for those starting to make characters, please put somewhere on your sheet something that will help me as the DM follow along with all 15 levels so i can double check things. If I see the end result but no "how I got here", I'll have to try and recreate it myself to see if what I made matches what I see, and if they don't match I'll have to ask a lot of questions.

I have already leveled up my character to 15 step by step minus picking the items and spells that I am still working on. I started as human variant so took the Actor feat as bonus with Fey Touched being the other feat. I used Standard Array to begin and chose to increase stats in CHA, DEX, and CON. I would be happy to submit what I currently have to see if you have other questions as I continue to work on the other details. The process is in depth so I understand wanting to start wading through the process.

Yeah, probably going to ASIs. Stats aren't great with point buy or standard array, so at least 2 are accounted for.

I'll have a build list at the end of my sheet, so you can go back over my process.

Case by case basis questions: Would you allow the Dragonlance Adept of the Red Robes feat and the Strixhaven Silverquill Student background? I have other options from your list of sources but I figured I'd ask about these first.

I don't think they are too powerful, though Magical Balance in Adept of the Red Robes seems like a strong feat. At low levels, a 10 on the d20 might not mean a hit, like if the enemy has plate armor, but by lv 15 armor isnt' scaling much (except for PCs looking for ways to boost it super high), so a 10 on the d20 often means a guaranteed success as you'll have at least +10 to hit and plate armor + shield is 20.

I'll allow it, but if you take either background to get the prerequisite feat at lv 1, obviously you don't get a free feat at lv 1 as you got a feat that way.

Very fair. I'll forgo the free feat and keep those two.

So going for a Warlock Tome - Will be 10 level - How many rituals will I be allowed to start with in the Book of Ancient Secrets?

Let's say the sum of the level of the rituals cannot exceed double your level, not counting the 2 lv 1s you got for free

Sounds good thanks!

Alright.
Character isn't completely done but I got a draft submitted for review. I'm still debating a few things, and may make some changes before game day.

Same here.

Also, for the record, this character is... (dice roller permitting) very good at one thing, and complete ass at everything else. So, y'know... team support may be a thing.

We all get by with a little help from our meat shie... er... friends.

Pretty sure I am the meat shield...

I reviewed the 3 characters submitted so far and sent DMs to the players. Mostly good so far, some not fully finished and some minor mistakes. I can tell magic items will make some of the PCs very powerful. I'll be keeping an eye on the first half of the one-shot to see how this all turns out.

If you think we should scale back the items, I'm good with that.

I took divine sorcerer and inspiring leader feat so I can help keep those hps up. If anyone takes healer feat that would be great!

No need to change any of the magic items. Part of this one shot is to see if magic items really do cause problems in the game. If I feel like it becomes too hard to make magic items work in these one shots, I'll either made a premade list of approved magic items or something like "if you need a magic weapon, you can have one that is just magical, but otherwise you are level 20 so you don't need magic items"

Later today or tomorrow I am going to check submitted characters again. Hoping to start next Monday but could start sooner. Any questions?

What do we get as far as mundane items... maybe i overlooked that. apologies if I did

If it is mundane, assume you have it if it makes sense. You are level 15. There shouldn't be much of any mundane gear you couldn't afford, like plate armor, so just take it.

Monday works for me, boss.

I think I'm ready whenever we kick this off.

Today was busy. I'll do what I can to review characters tomorrow. Hopefully within 24 hours of that everyone answers any questions and makes any needed fixes and we might be able to start thursday or friday.

Going to make my comments below as notes to the players of each character.

Can't wait to get started! I'll grab some mundane gear though. I listed the bare essentials but I should probably have a few things.

Right there with Ma on the mundane stuff.. should have that later today I think

Just to confirm, what is the difference between note and private?

I "think" one can be seen by everyone and the other cannnot? thats my guess at least...

Scratch that... looks like they are the same...

I think note shows that there was a note sent, while private you aren't even aware of unless it was to you, but either way you don't see the contents. Could be wrong. Testing below. Going to make 2 private messages, if you see none or only 1, that means GP hid them from you even knowing they were there.

I did not see any messages

No messages seen here, either.

Yeah, I know how they all work. I think the only Rogue subclass I haven't played is Thief, surprisingly enough. I'm just pretty "blah" with all of them for the build. None of them add anything I'm really looking for.

For a long campaign with rp I prefer rogues. I can still swing it with other high cha classes but will almost always prefer a rogue.

If you got my note and have fixed things and are ready for a re-review, please say so either here (note, private, or public) or in a direct message

I do believe I fixed my stuff and added mundane inventory as well

Me no see no note, forkbeard.

I think that was a mistake on my part, no note intended.

@CherokeeWind have you had the time to finish your character?

@Ironmonger42 I dont think the staff adds to DC's just the roll to hit... ill doublecheck that

Ah right, saving throws, not spell save DC, misread that

No worries! I misread that at first as well and I was like heck ya!

Probably for the best. Once you get above DC 20 for spell save DCs, lower level monsters used in high numbers may have a +0 to a save and may as well not roll. That's why a lot of higher level monsters tend (but don't always) have 16+ in most stats so they have at least something to add.

I have not been working on my character but I will remedy that today. I have decision paralysis so do nothing but I am eager to write so that state just won't do.

I have a few very long lasting spells/effects. Can I have these activated on myself and the party before the adventure starts? With my metamagics duration is doubled for the spells. Since Im also a Warlock I regenerate spell slots back every short rest. So i should have many many hours to recoup my slots and sorcery points before we actually start adventuring.

Inspiring Leader feat - +20 Temp HPs per short rest
Aid 16 Hrs Lv 5 + 20 HP's
Death Ward 16 Hrs
Mage Armor 16 Hrs

@Basil the first encounter takes place at the museum in the late afternoon. if your character would be paranoid enough to cast that before going (though on the surface it just seems like an exclusive preview of a museum that will open in a few days with just a couple guards, you all, the king, and the curator their) or would just cast it so regularly that just before sunset is not too late before they would expire from the last casting, sure.

@CherokeeWind I see a note that just says test, if you are checking if I saw it

I would probably cast these spells on myself daily at very least as part of his normal routine. As far as buffing everyone one else... that would be situational. If the heroes are given some lead time before going in they yes... but if there are time contraints like things happening at once and quickly probably not.

As far as your character knows, you saved the king's life a few days ago and had a big celebration. during the celebration the king mentioned a preview of a new museum and said he wanted you to attend as well. On the surface, you are meeting the king at a small event to see some items of historic importance.

Then i would probably just buff myself as i dont see a threat slash adventure coming :)

Now after the long rest in the middle, you can ask this question again based on how things go.

I think I am ready for you to look over my character for approval.

note=""]Thanks for fixing my sheet. I am completely hopeless when it comes to coding.
Fixed hp
Lost ego whip
Counterspell was a late pick up so had forgotten about the change. Not thrilled about the nerf but how can you evaluate if it isn’t used, right? So let's keep it and hope I don't regret it.
And I did skip 7th level spell on purpose....I have not used high level spells so tried to look at some commentary to help me decide. Simulacrum was raved about but I thought it was too much....basically another player. The other popular option was the Cage spell but it has a ridiculous component cost....granted we are level 15 heros but I didn't know if you were okay with it and I was at my number of spells anyway so I skipped it. Now with the loss of ego whip, I am revisting.
So if I add one more spell then we should be good to go?
[/note]

Let's try a see if this time we have a winner!

Now that I have what I think is a finished product I see I missed an opportunity. I should have taken the spell Fireball and then sang "This Girl Is on Fire" everytime I cast it. If only I knew how to play video clips!

You can still switch out one of your 2 10th or 2 14th level spell choices for fireball if you want. Monday is when we'll officially start. I'll make a thread in case people want to roleplay today and over the weekend before things go off.

Does anyone have anything that causes them to have advantage on initiative rolls? I can't remember what everyone has, so I assumed no one did.

Also, @forkbeard 24 hour warning to take your turn. Based on the session 0 thread, i will assume you take the dodge action if I don't see a turn by tomorrow.

Nothing for me to increase my initiative...just waiting to see what others will do and my turn which I have already changed my plans half a million times!

Out of curiosity, Anyone else here also a warlock? If so im assuming you took Eldtritch Blast? Im a Warlock an took that with repelling. Thinkinng we could work in tandem with crowd control. Since we all just saved the king I figured we would have some idea on each others capabilities. Not metagaming.

You guys in world have probably been adventuring for at least 5 to 10 levels worth of adventures. In character you know each other and your capabilities really well. If you want to come up with a combo, your characters have probably already done that combo before, unless you are using an 8th level spell in that combo as you probably just become level 15 (assuming no multiclassing)

I think the story goes that we are well known to each other but we have had at least one adventure together so it makes sense to know others capabilities. I was not even sure what everyone ended up being. I had assumed we had a thief but looking back at past conversations I don't think so. Thus we have a bard, a warlock, and I assume Xcha is a fighter of some type.

I'll let players go into detail about what they chose, but (since you would know each other well enough to know this):
Crow: Divine Soul Sorcerer 10 Fiend Warlock 5
Bells: Glamour Bard 15
Hunt: Assassin Rogue 8 Barbarian 2 Fighter 5
Travail: Aberrant Mind Sorcerer 15
Xha: Champion Fighter 15

I would assume everyone's highest priority would be the safety of the king so does anyone have spells that would remove him from this current threat because that is what Bells is planning on doing unless things happen and there looks like a lot of "things" between Xcha and Bells.

I have no spells. The best way to protect the King is to murder everything that threatens him. 😁

Travail can teleport everyone/himself and the king somewhere 'safe' but I doubt there's anywhere safe for this one shot.

@forkbeard you still have until tomorrow to post what you want to do if you don't want to take the dodge action. the dodge action is in case you don't post for 48 hours. I try to use the mention feature when it is someone's turn. I mentioned you in the last post in Scene 1 thread. Whatever you ultimately do, please post in that thread to keep things straight.

I saw a request to know monster AC. Do you guys want to know that? I normally wait a round or 2 for players to kind of figure it out, but I hear some say it makes PbP combat easier. Making a poll

I honestly don't mind one way or the other. Whatever you feel is best/easiest for you.

I've seen either way work fine and don't mind one way or the other, but in PbP I've found that knowing whether you've hit or not so you can do any followups can speed up combat.
If forced, I'd choose after a player rolls close to the AC. It kinda approximates you seeing that you almost hit the bullseye.

bad computer bad bad computer !

Not a requirement, but if you are going to make a lot of attacks, it helps to use 1 line per attack rather than one for attack and one for damage.

For example, instead of one line that says "1d20+x" and one that says "1dy+z", using "1d20+x, 1dy+z" helps it be visually clear in the results that they are together as one attack. I try to do that with my monsters. See examples below.

If your character sheet is set up to have them be separate, you can copy and paste the damage portion on the attack portion, adding a "," between them, and hit the X next to the damage line. Not required, but if there are more than 3 attacks it can be hard to not accidentally think a damage line is "to hit"

when rolling that way will it still pick up successes? for instance when you put AC15 behind the roll description and you make the roll.. will the dice come up green? Thats why I asked for AC. would be easier for DM to spot sucesses.

From my experience as long as a line includes a d20 in it and AC or DC followed by a number (I think there has to be a space between the AC/DC and the number, not sure), it will check if the result matches or exceeds, even if there are multiple with comma separated. See below. If a section comma separated does not use a d20, it doesn't do anything, but if it sees "d20" it will check.

CONPUTER PROBLMS

With forkbeard having technical problems, are we waiting the 48 hours, going with his last action, skipping him for now or doing something else? I would prefer our fighter not miss a round as it already feels like we have plenty to handle but maybe this kind of scenario is what you anticipated and think it falls under what you have already outlined. I am not meaning to push but I am excited about the game and find myself checking in to see if it has advanced so I would like to know what to expect.

Hope you get up and running soon, fb!

The session zero question covered this, and the vote was 3 to 2 to dodge after 48 hours. However, this scenario does have a wrinkle. forkbeard did post his turn early under a misunderstanding. We could say that what he did there will be his turn now, or given the circumstances I can give him a new turn and control his character for him and simply have him take the attack action and end his turn. I'll put a poll up. If any of you see 3 people voted for the same thing, please mention me so It is clear I need to act.

@Ironmonger42 , we are ready to rock and roll

I am out of the house but will use the mistakenly time turn later Tonight

@forkbeard sorry for confusing you, but when you said you were having tech issues I put it to a vote and all 4 other players said to do what happened.

For full transparency, here's what happened:
- You were first in combat, but after 48 hours there was no post in the scene 1 thread, so as per the results of the session 0 thread you took the dodge action
- Later, when your turn was deemed over, you took your turn, but as your turn was over it wasn't valid
- After that, the other players went and it was your turn again, you said you were having computer issues and players wanted to keep the momentum going. I brought up that you had the turn that wasn't valid and put it to a vote if I should just have you use that turn as your next turn just now. As seen above, all 4 other players voted to do that, hence what happened.

I hope this doesn't sour your opinion of this game or me as a DM. I try to stick to earlier agreements, generally.

@CherokeeWind The curator is probably a commoner. Doubt he's proficient.

You can safely assume that the king is either a noble or, at best, a knight, and the curator is either a commoner or noble. the king can probably fight, but this is an overwhelming situation and he thinks dodging is the best path so you have the most time to defeat them. The curator probably isn't a fighter in any way, and if he can fight it is more a sport or hobby like casual fencing.

my posting poblems

I have Parkinsons disease, which, among other things, makes my typing bad and slow. Last weekend I had network problems and before that I had problems with my speech to text app. Should I get caught up and poat? Or is this too much?

I will let you make the call. My only request is that, pausing on the weekends, if it gets to your turn and it has been 2 days, you will essentially be skipped. If you think that will happen a lot, it is up to you if getting skipped too often will be a problem or if you will be ok to be assuming to dodge and try to block for those next to you.

OK, thanks. Would it be a problem if sometimes my posts were short?

Lots of people like to be flowery and say a lot, but as long as in combat I get how many squares up/down and left/right you want to move (or the new square's location) and what your action/bonus action/movement are, I don't really need anything more than that.

Example: I move 3 squares right, 2 down. Action, attack Skeleton brute 2. Bonus action: second wind. (with rolls below).

Alright, need a GM call here.

Hunt's own attacks are straight rolls... he has both advantage (attacking an enemy that can't see you ) and disadvantage (attacking an unseen enemy) applied to his attacks.

However... any enemy attacking him is at straight disadvantage, correct? The Wildhunt ability for a Shifter says attackers within 30 feet cannot have advantage. So, the darkness doesn't give them advantage in the first place, so it doesn't cancel out the disadvantage from darkness.

That reads as RAW, but wanted to bounce it off you.

That is correct, as long as the attacker is 30 feet or less away and only while you are shifted. If not for your shift ability they would be normal rolls. It only says while you are not incapacitated, it doesn't require you to see the attacker

Small favors.

You're good, I wasn't upset it was more just trying to figure out what to do.

On turn 2 I had intended to move away from the enemy I was fighting, since it was under the hypnotic effects and we had been told to not attack those. BK2 wasn't hypnotized, hence picking that one as my target.

No worries though.

I think i've established I am a very RAW DM. I would be much looser on things like this while running a campaign, as there would be a longer term investment, we would have gotten to know each other better, and so forth. As for this, ability checks are actions by default and can only be otherwise when given an ability that allows it, like the inquisitive rogue being able to make a perception or investigation check as a bonus action. As for creative uses for skills, outside of combat I am generally much more willing to let skills do a lot, as that is when they shine most, or when in a skill challenge. During combat skill checks without any class features supporting them can be a resourceless, very repeatable way to bypass what combat is for (overpowering your opponents or achieving an objective before they do). As such, I am weary to let a skill check do something it was not said to be able to do (like athletics grappling) unless the fight is pretty close to over. I understand your desire to express your creativity and not only attack each turn. However, I try not to let things that cost very little do a lot or else combat can become less significant and you can express yourself every time you act as you already have been doing.

Just wanted to say keeping the battle info in one thread has made it easier for me to keep track of things.

That's funny, I was just thinking the opposite. 😂

I'll admit, keeping track of all of this has been both helpful and very hard. On one hand, if I made a mistake we can see when it happened. On the other hand, it takes me twice as long to take enemy turns, if not longer.

What do you guys think? What would you like to be different? I'll try to make just about anything IF if actually provides benefit, vs is just a "nice to have".

Well it looks like ma and myself are split! I would say whatever is easier for you. Although it’s easier for me it’s not so much easier to make it tough on you. Instead of all details in one thread if you are able to just link to the thread when it’s updated I think that will work

I can keep updating it and putting it in the same thread, the main thing that took a lot of time was the combat log at the bottom

The log was nice but I think just status’s would be okay. If we as players need something we can just scroll through posts. If you find the summaries it useful as well then go for it!

Agreed. Perhaps statuses plus any major events/ongoing effects in the summaries.

I found all your battle information helpful. I thought it a strength and with a lot of pieces moving, it allowed us to catch anything that was missed at first glance. Totally necessary? No, but definitely helpful.

This is a big workload on you, absolutely. I agree with Basil that whatever is most effective for you is what matters.

Stupid dice roller!!

Trying to not clutter the roleplay chat with a rules conversation. MaJunior, are you saying you would have preferred just using passive perception, or are you saying that you are on the side of rolling?

I'm saying there's a weird disconnect when you have a high passive score, but roll low.

I have a Monk in my IRL group with a passive perception of 27. When I roll a 2, and "only" have a 19 for my Perception check, it sucks to fail knowing my passive would have seen whatever it was but I made the "mistake" of actively engaging with the game.

I get why using passive as a floor is arguably bad, it takes away from a class feature (and a somewhat high level ability at that). I don't want to diminish anyone's build. It just sucks when a passive check would have succeeded, but an active check fails. Feels bad when playing the game is worse than not.

I think this is more a problem of passive checks than anything. It makes you think you "shouldn't have tried" when I feel like you should try and being made to think you should have just said "here is my passive score. What happens?" Is less engaging.

It also makes me think that it could imply that you never roll perception. If someone is sneaking up on you, passive perception. Is there is something to find in the room, passive perception. If there is anything to point out, passive perception. I can't imagine you are only supposed to roll if an enemy you are aware of managed to hide and now you are actively seeking and never any other time.

I disagree, when every skill check is technically an action. Perception isn't free... you look for the door/hidden enemy/trap trigger OR you attack the other enemy with your sword or spell.

The real issue is that your passives don't "turn off" just because you actively use the skill. You're still just as likely to notice something out of the corner of your eye when looking for something. Which makes the idea that you're suddenly bad at something you're good at because you tried... that much worse.

I think there are 2 disconnects. First, I don't think passive perception was ever meant to represent someone's worse chance at actively searching. The book describes it as only used for "task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again", meaning if all you did was go to the roof and look around, "over and over again" is not defined as a set amount of time. It could be 1 minute, 10 minutes, or an hour. As such, a quick look, if that is all that is done, is never meant to trigger passive perception.

By this logic, my "you find it but it takes a long time" option could be seen as "if you fail, you can succeed with passive perception, but passive perception implies spending a long time"

Second, I think it was originally designed, as seen in the example in the quote above, to be used for stuff like traps and secret doors so that players don't ask to make perception checks in every room "just to be safe" and the DM can just say "listen, I know your passive perceptions, you don't have to ask as long as you stay in the room at least x minutes".

Emphasis mine.

Just making sure. What part of the bolded portion is being emphasized in this situation?

This is the situation I see you in now:
You find out the enemy used the roof to swing in through the windows earlier. As you focus on finding the stolen item and the king's safe return to the castle, you pop up on the roof to see if there happened to be any evidence of who these people were, such as something that was dropped or torn off.

A roll was made, but unfortunately the dice decided to make 2 very low rolls. This could be interpreted one of two ways:
1. The dice decided there was nothing to find. These guys were efficient and did not make the kind of mistakes you had hoped they would.
2. Something is here, but for one reason or another it is too hard to find.

I proposed a 3rd option: Oh, instead of 1 or 2, failure means there is a twist/complication, rather than nothing or it being too hidden

I hope I do not come across as confrontational. This is only the 2nd high level one shot I have done in this site, but it seems so far I come across a different rule that I did not know I don't run the way others expect. The last one was about facing and how to handle monsters with gazes, and it appears this one is passive perception. If I do this enough I may create a catalog I add to any game saying "I came across this in past games. This is how I will rule it."

How I always ruled it was that it was what you used when you didn't know you had to roll. We just assumed you got a 10 on the d20 so I could do things secretly without making players paranoid.

I guess the 1st half reminds me of the taking 10 rule I read in Starfinder. Essentially, if you can do a task over and over for 10 minutes and the task would not be stopped if you constantly failed the roll, you could just say you rolled a 10 + modifiers and move on. The big emphasis is that you had to assume you were constantly failing, so if failing meant something broke or a person got hurt you couldn't do it since there were consequences. Have yet to run the system but these sound alike. In theory not noticing something like a secret door would not have consequences but not noticing a trap could, as you might trigger it, so one could take 10 and one you could not

So, my point was that you said passive checks were for a task you did repeatedly over a period of time (an averaged result). And, while that is one use of them, I was clarifying it was not the only use.

But as to your question about how it applies to the rooftop:
Let's assume there is a clue of some sort.

Obviously it isn't in plain sight. It's "hidden," even if it can't actually choose to hide. The GM determines how well hidden the clue is -- the DC needed to spot it. Then, as GM we have a choice... we use passive perception to see if they notice the clue, or they make an active check to see if they find the clue.

The thing is, Perception is something you are always doing. (So are insight and investigation.) It isn't like athletics or proficiency in thieves' tools where you have to actively perform the action. When you look at how actions work in game, that's even more important to keep in mind.

Taking 10 (a mechanic that's shown up in a few systems, including an old version of D&D) covers the first half of passive checks -- the part where you have plenty of time to keep at it. Not so much the second half.

Here's how I'm going to rule it for now. What's happened happened, and since a roll was made and not a request to use passive perception. As such, a 14 would not succeed (gotta hate when advantage can't give you a good roll or disadvantage robs you of a nat20), so you can either:
- say nothing is there and rejoin with the group
- use a fail forward option mentioned

As a reminder, the fail forward options I provided are not the only options, but they were, in summary:
- Off screen, someone was going to come back and pick up what they dropped. They see you pick it up but you don't see them, and now they know you are looking for them and have something that may help you do so
- There is an item, but there is a curse. It can be something like an affect from the bestow curse spell, or something you come up with that still has a downside that isn't negligible
- You do find something, but it takes you half an hour or more of searching, which either means you give up a short rest to do that while others rest, or (if losing a short rest would mean nothing to you) the enemy is able to take some extra time to do whatever is it they are doing by the time you find them (this is basically what passive perception would have been, since how long "repeatedly" is was not defined, so this would be the option you would have asked for passive perception earlier)

As for the future, if you want to use a passive for a skill, you have to do the following:
- confirm that failure wouldn't have an immediate consequence (can't passive disable a trap, as a failure would trigger it or break your tools)
- confirm you are okay with a minimum of 10 minutes doing the task, longer if DM thinks is necessary (DM may say 10 minutes would have consequences)
- state you want to use it, and thus do not roll any dice

He found nothing.
Also...that's not at all how passive perception works.

Honestly? Just rule that you don't use passive checks for anything and call it good.

Okay, I'm not frustrated. i would like to know how passive perception is supposed to be run. i'm not going to guess, i would like to hear how you read it. Either I'm reading it wrong or we read it differently, but we don't read it the same way.

As you mentioned previously, I'm not trying to be confrontational. This is just a thing we see very differently.

Passive checks (as it isn't just Perception) is a mechanic has two aspects to it. You've leaned hard into one (an act performed repeatedly over time), but pretty much ignored the other.

Passive checks are constant. They're always on. So let's use Perception checks for examples... the GM or module sets the DC on how hard something is to notice. The first thing you do is check that DC against the passive perceptions present. If someone's passive perception is higher? They saw it. Done deal.

If they need to roll, their result shouldn't be lower than the passive check they already made. And that still may not be enough to see it, but people tend to skip past the passive check straight for an active check, and using the passive score is a baseline to save the GM a bit of work.

But anywho, that applies to any reason for the check... a hidden door, enemy rogue chooses to Hide as a bonus action, a clue left behind on a battlefield, someone slipping poison in a drink, or a lurking bugbear behind a tree at night. The passive check is always passively checking. If the hidden thing isn't well hidden, the ridiculously observant people of the world are simply going to notice it.

Remember for combat that active checks take an action, and passive checks become more important. Also remember the Observant feat exists.

okay, I think I better understand where you are coming from. The key to your understanding, from what I read, is the phrase "always on". The idea is that you are always observing your surroundings, and if that uses 10 + bonus, then theoretically if you roll for perception you are technically using 2 results: your always on result and your active result. If both rolls exist, whichever one succeeds means you succeeded. As such, if you roll a 9 on perception but have a passive of 13 and the DC was 12, it doesn't matter that you rolled a 9 because your passive succeeded so you succeeded since you always get it.

I will explain myself, but for the sake of play, my final ruling will be: no, I don't rule it this way.

I will say, however, that for stealth I do mostly agree. If you stealth in combat, your result is compared to the passive perception of all enemies (you have to have full or 3/4 cover or be heavily obscured or invisible to begin with), and you hide from those you succeed against and fail against those you roll under. Unless the circumstances are special, though, those that spot you will probably yell out where you are to others, so essentially in most occurrences you are rolling against the highest passive perception of the enemies. If you do hide from everyone, though, finding you requires either an action to seek (perception check) or for the enemy to stand it a place where the cover you use to hide no longer hides you (like if you hid behind a pillar but they walk around the pillar). Hiding in combat is complicated, but when in doubt try to get 3/4 cover or great, be heavily obscured/invisible, and/or ask an ally to create a distraction.

If you would like to hear my why, you can keep reading. Otherwise, we will go with that and continue the game Monday morning (it is sunday night for me, in case anyone is in another time zone).

But in summation... rule how you feel is best, and that's what we do. I don't have to like or agree with the decision, just abide by it. And that I can do.

That said, I'll continue the game now. If anyone else has anything on there character sheet that they are now worried might not get ruled the way they wanted, please bring that up to me soon. If I'm expected to know what your character does just reviewing your character sheet, there could be a disconnect. If such a disconnect is discovered, i'll let you change decisions so that you can play something that will work the way you wanted.

For example, if you had taken mass suggestion in hopes that you could potentially end a fight in 1 casting if enough enemies failed and you didn't run that by me, you might be surprised when I interpret "reasonable" different than you.

Absolutely continue! It was never intended to halt the game, just serve as a discussion. As you learn more about high level one-shots, what works and what doesn't, how different players on the site play... those players also learn your GM style and sort of what to expect if we get picked for another game down the line. That's never a bad thing.

I will say that perhaps in the future I may use passive perception for traps and secret doors, though this is only to spot them. I typically go with traps need perception to spot them but investigation to understand them. As such, if passive perception spotted a secret door, you would still need investigation to figure out how it is opened. In the same way, if a player automatically notices a trip wire for a trap or that a tile is slightly different than others, they would still need to use investigation to understand what the trip wire is likely connected to and why as well as to know the tile is a pressure plate. Players may always make assumptions, but they would be that, assumptions. That said, if a secret door was opened by pulling a book on a shelf and a player specifically said "I pull all the books off the shelf" they would pull a shaggy from scooby doo and accidentally figure out how it works. At the same time, perhaps there is a spirit in the room who used to own those books, and throwing all of them off the shelf could make them angry. You might not know.

You may consider listing the Observant feat as one you don't allow in your game. The +5 to Passive Investigation is very much at odds.

Alternately, rework the +5 bonus to passive perception and passive investigation into something useable... a flat bonus (+2 or +3?) to Perception and Investigation skill checks perhaps? I'm sure there's a fix.

To be fair, I haven't hear many youtubers or played with many DMs that ever use passive investigation. Passive perception is mentioned a lot by comparison, but outside of the observant feat it really isn't mentioned anywhere. Perhaps I would just give the player expertise in wisdom (perception) or intelligence (investigation) based on which ability score was increased. By lv 13, it is better than the old feat, as it boosts active and passive, and if the player wants expertise in the other one they have Skill Expert.

Im not a big fan of either passives and im generally reluctant to take the obervant feat since its so rarely applied like I would expect if applied at all.

Both skills require the DM's to be proactive its easier with perception but trickier with investigation. I think both need to be revised and clarified.

The way i interpret the skills is that they are both always on... you are senses neve turn off... Do you smell smoke? See a shiney pennny, or hear someone say your name in the next room... you were never trying to smell anything, look for coins or eaves drop... you just do in naturally. Some people are just more aware of their surroundings.

Investigation is a bit trickier since it involves making connections... I think first you percieve... then you make connections... investigation... you notice a tan line around a finger... Passive investigation quickly concludes there must have been a ring on there for some time. Oversimplified but think how sherlock homes is able to quickly deduce things at a glance without staring.

Sounds like a homebrew solution needs to be worked out. I think your on the right track with advantage. Maybe if passive perception picks something up you can give a subtle hint of something amiss instead of full reveal kinda like spidey sences. If the player picks up on the hint, rolls the apropriate perception it is then with advantage.

Here are some examples that come to mind:
- You are in a library and there is a secret door. You take time to look at the books and get an idea of what is here. As you are here a few minutes, you notice a draft coming from the northern wall. You aren't sure where the door is specifically, but you are pretty sure the draft has to be evidence of the door. You then try to figure out how to get it open, which is something you are actively doing and thus roll investigation. On a success you notice a statue of a bust can have its head twisted and the door opens. If you had failed the roll and never said "I mess with the bust" then the roll represents you not considering that possibility and giving up before trying it.

- You walk down a hallway and your passive perception helps you notice soot on the walls. If you didn't have a torch you might not have noticed (-5 to PP if using darkvision in darkness). You use investigation at a safe distance and deduce that some of the floor panels cause the walls to slide and reveal flame jets. You then either jump far enough to jump over all the plates or use thieves tools to see if you can jump the pressure plates so they will stay put under your weight. if you failed the thieves tools, you either damage your tools or "think" you did a good job and find out the hard way you didn't.

As for things like passive insight, you might talk to someone and your passive insight is your "gut feeling" of if they are friendly, neutral, or hostile and if they are faking or hiding anything. However, you might need to actively roll insight to see why your gut tells you that. Perhaps they have a tell you didn't see until now, like ringing their hands or scratching an ear.

As for stealth, I mentioned earlier but if you sneak up on someone who is unaware of you, it is active stealth vs highest passive perception of those who could see/hear you. If you are in combat and you meet the condition of 3/4 or full cover or heavily obscured or invisible and make an active stealth roll, it is compared to the highest passive perception of those who would not want to lose track of you. On a failure, someone might go "hey, he's trying to get away!" and point you out of there are different passives. Once someone is hidden, unless they give away their location (typically attacking or casting a spell with a verbal component, etc.), you must use your action to perform an active perception check against the active stealth check they rolled earlier. Generally, hiding is easiest against distracted enemies. If someone attacks someone other than you or seems to be doing things actively that don't involve you, they are probably distracted, but they still get their passive perception.

I woul hold off on passive insight as i dont think RAW even brings that up. Just opening another can of worms... what you see is what you get with insight unless you are actively using the skill

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Tbh, I am now concerned about any ruling that is not straight weapon combat by you. I appreciate your "fair warning" so that spells may be traded but that is not to say I don't feel limited to cast damage dealing spells. I didn't want to be a fighter that did my damage with magic. I wanted to be a possible alternative to answering every problem with a sword but I don't believe we have have anywhere close to the same definition as "reasonable" as I like to take creative liberties perhaps a bit too far. But the example in the book has a knight giving his warhorse to a beggar. That example seems extreme and yet it is the example.

Temp hps vs Actual Hps

You are correct in that Hps from the Aid spell are "Temporary" but in this case there is a difference between temporary and Actual HP Maximum

Imagine 2 buckets of water… One is always full.. that is your actual hp level that you rolled up. Now imagine a second bucket that only fills up when it rains… that the Temp hps.

Temp hps are a buffer that once they are used up they are gone and can’t be healed back. When you take damage these hps are subtracted first. Certain spells and abilities grant "Temporary" hps.

The Aid spell increases the maximum in your actual hit points, makes your bucket bigger. These are treated like normal hit points and can be healed back.



Some examples of Actual and Temp HP modifiers:

Hard disagree. You've never heard someone talk and just knew they were full of crap? Honestly, I feel like Insight might be the hardest to justify as an active skill. Outside of some game mechanics that require rolls (i.e. the Insightful Fighting ability for the Inquisitive Rogue), it's almost entirely passive.

I would also make the case that the way the PHB explains passive checks (p. 175) they can be used with any skill. Passive Acrobatics? Passive Arcana? Passive History, Religion, or Nature? Passive Athletics? All are possible.

I thought of that... but then I felt a properly narrated scene would convey the obvious without the need for a extras. At the very least it might prompt and active check. Somestimes less is best.

He sounds like he is full of crap....but then again....

Also making everything passive all the time is pretty much giving everyone the 11th level Reliable Talent ability and cheapens what would otherwise be an amazing class specific (Rogue) ability.

The issue is, just because you automatically know someone is full of crap doesn't mean someone else would.

Example: Heard a boy talking to a girl on the city bus recently. Mid to late teens. He was trying to impress her by saying his uncle was friends with a minor celeb who lives in our area. He was absolutely full of it, but she was buying every word.

So, I think if a scene were narrated properly, the GM would simply play the boy and say what the boy said. He'd make his Deception check, and based on results a private note would be addressed to the character with high enough passive insight explaining the boy is obviously lying to impress the girl. The girl, with a low passive insight score, gets no such note and believes the story the boy is telling.

Edit:

As for reliable talent, notice I mentioned that when this whole discussion started. That said... Reliable Talent ONLY applies to skills you're proficient in.

I can appreciate the want to do creative things to solve problems, I do. I get the feeling the module The Wild Beyond the Witchlight was made with your kind of style in mind, as it advertises that it is possible to finish the entire module and not roll initiative once if the players are truly engaged in the world and think of NPCs as people who follow the rules of the feywild. That's not to say I think you don't want combat ever, but that you probably enjoy that the module heavily rewards creative solutions and problem solving over "kill the evil" like most modules.

Long story short, I want combat to be tactical and resources to be respected. If creativity mimics a resource that takes a cost, I tend to lean in favor that the resource should have a bigger impact than creativity, as one costs you something and there may only cost you something if the dice go against you.

I would prefer that passives don't become so prevalent that they are used for every skill. The act of rolling dice and embracing success or failure is, to me, a fundamental part of the game. I think the dice roll not only adds excitement but a bit of realism. The most insightful person might "misread" someone 1 out of 10 times by jumping to conclusions. The dice add that possibility in. It can make people seem like robots that always get the same result every time or that can only do things well if they invested. Also, for things like insight and such where only 1 person really needs to pass for everyone to get something, making everything passive can make skills not really a part of the game anymore.

Skills would still very much be part of the game.

Older editions had tiered information for knowledge checks.

Let's take a basilisk for example. Your character wants to know what they know about basilisks.

A 12 reveals a petrifying gaze. A 16 reveals it's limited to relatively short range. A 20 reveals a mirror and bright like can trick it into targetting itself.

Your passive is a 13. You know about the gaze no matter what... but do you know more?

@MaJunior Heya just created a character with dnd beyond 2024 rules. Looks like passive insight is a thing! Thought you might find that intereresting

That is rather interesting!

Had a hectic few days. Apologies.

Hey everyone,

Sorry for the sudden notice but I have to end the game. My life has gotten a lot busier and I have not been as responsible as I need to be. As such I will be ending my activity on gamersplane so that I can free up the time I need.

This decision has nothing to do with what anyone has done. The reason above is not an excuse to avoid any conflict. I bit off more than I can chew and so I need to focus more of my time as a husband and father. Perhaps one day I can return to the site, but if so I cannot say when.

Thank you for the good times and fun games. I pray for all of your healths and that you enjoy any game you can be a part of.

I hear ya m8. Looking forward to your return. Take care of the family. Many thanks for the heads up and not just ghosting like so many seem to be okay with.

Do what you gotta do man. This is a game, you're talking about family -- it's a no-brainer. Looking forward to rolling some digital dice with you in the future, but if it doesn't happen then let me just say thank you for the good times (both in your rolls as a GM and as a fellow player).

All the best, man!

I wish you peace and long life.

Live long and prosper!

If anyone wants me to promote them to GM and they take over, please tell me by the end of the weekend before I retire the game.

If that person wants me to tell them what I had planned I am willing to do so

I would like to know where you found that awesome battle map of the museum

I think either a google search or Pinterest. I usually just type "battle map" and then what I think I want and that phrase tends to give me a ballpark of what I want

If no one wants to take over the campaign, I'll retire it by the end of the day monday.

Thanks for the info. I plan on using it.

I just want to thank you again, @Ironmonger42 , for fun games. I hope things get better IRL soon.