GRIT - Weird West Roleplaying

So I know in my introduction thread I mentioned that this system was in its early stages and was still very much a raw idea. I also said that I wouldn't post something until I had it more fleshed out and ready for playtest. I'm hoping, however, that by posting this it might give me more reason to keep churning out ideas so that I have more things to post.

So GRIT is my working title, and of course I picture the PDF front page or book cover to have that in big, gritty-looking letters. Probably with a smoking bullet hole or two for good measure. The basic concept is all about risk vs. reward. In my typical group I have a couple players that are huge risk-takers, and on the other side of the table I have a couple of people that are very risk adverse. I wanted to make something that would satisfy them both, and my answer to that was to allow players to set their own stakes and to determine the odds of their success.

It uses a d20, and players will choose from a list of potential Bets before they roll for a skill test. These options range from an Empty Hand, where the player can literally roll anything from 1-20 and get a success, to a Royal Flush, where the player picks a single number and attempts to roll that number. There are 6 other options in between, such as the Straight (Rolling 16-20) or the Four of a Kind (rolling a 5, 10, 15 or 20). Success can mean a lot of things, however, and the risk you take determined the degree to which you succeed should you beat the stakes that you set for yourself. If you are shooting someone and you declare an Empty Hand, you may successfully hit them, but it would be a grazing shot. Calling a Straight and rolling it successfully would be something much more damaging. Betting that you'll roll a Nat 20 and then actually rolling it is almost certainly fatal. The rewards for riskier shots increase exponentially so that succeeding on an Empty Hand roll 20 times is not the equivalent of rolling a Royal Flush once.

The trick is that your character is not determined solely by your own luck. You have skills, each ranging from 1-6, which determine how many d20s you get to roll in your attempt. I've busted out my calculator and I've made several probability charts and it looks pretty promising that all of the numbers seems to increase evenly. Calling and rolling that Nat20 doesn't seem quite so impractical now. With 6 dice it'll happen a little more than a quarter of the time. We've done a brief bit of playtesting, and it's been a pretty fun build up of excitement and intensity as a player calls their bet and makes their rolls.

Rolling dice isn't free, though. Players have pools of a resource called Grit, and each die costs a certain amount of Grit in order to roll it. This is where your Attributes come in. On a character sheet, your Attributes might look like the following:

Stat Name: 3 | 2 | 1 | Ace

The number that your character has in that stat determines how much Grit it costs to roll each die, with Ace being free (so you can roll 6 dice for all of your shots, gunslinger). Running out of Grit has some bad effects, but you'll always at least be able to roll 1 die.

Spent Grit goes into a central Pot that players can draw from with certain abilities (like shady Gambler characters with the appropriate Talents being able to "steal" from the Pot to power their abilities). This brings me to the next part, which is...

The Deal. What I've described so far is just the basic die rolling mechanic. The Deal is where it becomes a game that I would want to play. When making any skill check, players will set terms and propose a deal to the GM. Maybe the player suggests a certain bet they're willing to make, a certain amount of Grit they'll spend, and just tries to roll what they say they're going to roll. Maybe, instead, the player doesn't want to leave it up to chance, and that player instead offers incentives to the GM so that he can succeed automatically. These incentives could be Grit expenditure, succeeding at some sort of cost, damage suffered, EXP spent, penalties on a future roll, etc. Anything game-related is on the table here, and the GM can either accept this deal, or counter with his own offer.

Here are some examples of the negotiations:

Drawbacks (Reducing the reward but reducing the bet needed to pass)
-----Generally contains, "Even if I succeed…"

"Even if I succeed, I won’t be able to make the jump all the way, but I’ll be able to grab onto the other ledge with my hands."
"Even if I succeed at jumping this cliff, if I rolled an even number I’m going to scrape up my legs and take 5 damage."
"My legs will be so tired from making this jump that, even if I succeed, on a future roll of the GMs choice I’ll suffer -1 to my Attribute."

Benefits (Increasing the reward but increasing the bet needed to pass)
-----Generally begins with, "If I succeed…"

"If I succeed at jumping this cliff, I’ll take 2 Grit from the Pot."
"If I succeed, then when I get to the other side, I find a secure place to tie a rope so that others can climb across."
"If I succeed, then I’ll prove that I’m the strongest around and I can pay a reduced amount of XP right now to increase my Vigor!"

Dangers (Increasing the risk but reducing the bet needed to pass)
-----Generally begins with, "If I fail…"

"If I fail to make this jump, I’ll die."
"If I fail, part of the cliff face crumbles and makes the check harder to pass later."
"If I fail, my favorite revolver slips from its holster and falls into the chasm."

Safety Nets (Reducing the risk but increasing the bet needed to pass)
-----Generally contains, "Even if I fail…"

"Even if I fail, I will only take half damage."
"Even if I fail, I can get to the other side, but I twisted my ankle and take -1 on applicable checks until I rest for the night."
"Even if I fail, my friend can attempt a difficult Vigor check to catch me."


Players are not the only ones allowed to manipulate the deal, as I said that the GM gets to counter offer. These are just as free form as the original Deal can be. GMs can even offer to try to buy out the player and get them to accept an automatic failure in exchange for Grit from the Pot, or some other benefit. GMs can interrupt a skill check in order to form deals of their own. If a player wants to make this jump across the cliff, the GM can lean in and ominously mutter, "I'll give you three Grit if you put down the dice and let me narrate what happens." Both the Player and the GM need to accept the deal in order for it to be made, but there's nothing there's nothing that says the GM has to elaborate on what he's going to do to the Player's character if he's given control of the events. But damn if it doesn't pique the curiosity. If no deal can be reached (which I don't see happening that often with all of the available options), then there is a skill check for everything, and the GM can establish what sort of Bet would be the minimum to accomplish a task in its most basic way.

This Deal system can be used in Combat, too. Players are free to say, "I want to shoot that stick of dynamite in his hand and kill him and his two henchmen!" He and the GM would then form how to make that happen. If a deal ever involves another player, that player needs to agree as well. If two players were ever in combat against each other, it would likely boil down to the basic die rolling mechanic.

These are the Basic Rules, anyway. I also have ideas for advanced bets where players bet they will achieve a certain series of rolls, such as 3-in-a-row, or doubles. Advanced Bets like these could be used to line up two targets and shoot them both, or ricochet a bullet to strike someone behind cover.

All of this, as I've said, is in its very early stages. I continuously have thoughts of, "Maybe I should do it this way instead," and make sizable changes. I imagine that'll be happening for a long time.

If you'd like to give feedback, you are definitely welcome to. I'm not in a place yet to do open playtesting (that is, outside of my group of close friends), and I've been pretty happy with developing these mechanics by myself (not that I'd be insulted if you suggested something, but that also isn't what I'm looking for). What I need most is:
-----Encouragement!
-----Have you seen these specific mechanics used elsewhere? I've played a lot of different kinds of games, but I haven't played nearly all of them.
-----Would this be something that you would be interested in playing, or is there another system that you'd prefer for a Weird Western setting, and why?

Thank you!

Just read through it and I have to say that this sounds like a blast to play! I haven't seen those dice mechanics anywhere (And they're very usable), which is always a plus. I would definitely give this game a try.

The only thing I'd be sure of if you want to try it on here is to make sure you have very active players, because the back-and-forth nature of the deals mechanic could REALLY slow a game down in this environment if the players aren't posting frequently enough.

Sounds like fun to me. I've been running a Wild West 5e campaign I homebrewed, and so far nobodies tried any gambling games except russian roulette with blanks and bottle shooting contests, but I can tell you that yeah, you're gonna need active players to play cause they last much longer than you think, and the back-and-forth goes on for days before you finish.

Thank you both. The game concept was built for being played in person, or at the very least over a voice chat. Sadly, for the reasons you mentioned, I don't know how well it would translate into a play by post. :(

I can think of play by post house rules though.

The mechanics seem really neat. I like the more narrative take on things. I do wonder if the GM would have to track a lot with things like drawbacks, but I'd guess that's up to GM discretion to accept? Regardless, it has a slight FATE feel in that the GM and player can influence the environment to both aid themselves and push the story along.

As for the PbP, it may be a game that just isn't suited for PbP, and that's fine IMO. If you wanted to test with GP people, we do still have the Mumble server (though it's fallen into invisibility thanks to my last month of "Hey, wasn't there someone who used to run this site?"edness).

Yeah, I kind of imagine a decent bit of weight on the GMs shoulders to ensure Deals are fair between players and the like. Other people could see it as being just as much the players' responsibilities to make sure things are tracked and that deals remain interesting. It seems to me like a system that might stumble as players figure it out. When a new player asks, "Well, what can I offer in the deal?" and the GM replies, "Basically anything," it can be daunting. At least for playtesting I was going to include the rolling/probability charts and the examples of things you can offer in deals.

I really liked FATE when I played it, but I think it was a little too freeform for my typical group. It's partly why in GRIT I wanted Deals to be optional. If you want to just leave it to the dice, you are more than welcome.

Obviously in a business sense I'd want the game to be available for as many forms of play as possible. If I can think of some good alternate rules to make it suitable for PbP, then I'd be happy to playtest them here.

As far as the setting that I'm working on, it's also in its very early stages. I realize that if I were to sell this as a product, it'd need to compete with a lot of Indie games on the market as well as other games in its genre (namely Deadlands). What I've got right now is a Weird West setting that, frankly, sounds like Deadlands but just not as good. Cause damn if Hucksters aren't really cool. So I'm still working on writing that up, but my main focus has been on making the game mechanics fun to play.

This seems fantastic system for the right group, and I like how you've given a system to reward risk-takers as well as the risk-shy. I imagine that the nature of deal-making would turn off some GMs, or players who lack trust in their GM. In production or for the criminally risk-adverse GM, a comprehensive system of example Deals (like an appendix) might help narrow down the possibilities.

Another thing you could think about it something close to FATE in that you get the system working solid enough, that any setting could be applied over it. That's one of the things I appreciated about DnD, FATE, and a few others is that you could completely re-write the lore if you wanted to.

Thank you! My group ranges from those that will charge headfirst into a dragon's den with no weapon to those that will tap every 5 foot square with a 10-foot-pole as they march down a dungeon hall. I definitely had them all in mind when I made it. I'm hoping that if the rolling system is good enough the game could still be fun even if some GMs limit deals to certain, structured options for their players, or even remove deals entirely. But that is certainly removing a lot of the system's charm. Still, the deals were built onto the basic system, and not the other way around. Hopefully it can still run without them if they're unwanted by a few groups.

A comprehensive list is definitely something that I will be doing. Thanks!
I definitely had that in mind. I started with Weird West just because I love the setting, and it isn't so saturated with tabletop RPGs like many other genres. If I manage to get it working, though, and it does well enough to be worth the effort, then I'd certainly convert it into other settings.

It wouldn't be hard to do as it is now. Change a few terms, and there'd be no need for the poker terminology.

Had an idea for how players can use the Pot some more, and gain back Grit. Thinking of letting players place bets on other players' rolls. Obviously I'd have to have a lot of rules to govern this and keep people from betting Empty Hands and putting all of their Grit down in an effort to double it. I do like the concept of players being able to bet for or even against other players' skill checks.

Thinking that I could add rules that there needs to be someone else to bet opposite of them. That person could be the GM (if he thinks it's a risky enough bet) or another player.

Also, GRIT most definitely stands for Game, Runnable In Theory.

Sounds very interesting. My firs thought was "wouldn't the d12 be more appropriate for this considering suits have 13 cards each?"
Otherwise, really interesting mechanics.

Thank you! The dice aren't really being used to make Poker hands; I just call the different probabilities that you can roll by Poker terminology to give it a gambling feel.

Maybe there's a really interesting mechanic waiting to be found in using a d12 as each type of card in a suit, but the d20 seems like the perfect middle ground for me, as far as GRIT goes. There's less in the way of die mechanics and die manipulation that I could do with a d12 than a d20. And a lot of the game's talents are going to be die manipulation. I'd jump to a d100 for even more options if that wasn't bordering on being too complicated.

A d12 would be great for modeling a game of Faro, which was a very popular gambling game in the west. Basically, just betting on what the next card would be.

I'm very intrigued by this system and would like to read more about it. Specifically the Empty Hand roll is confusing me at the moment. How does that work exactly? My initial thought was 'High Card' but you don't seem to be using opposed rolls. Really I'd just like to read all the details on your dice rolling mechanics.

I'm having issues with the 'dice=deck of cards' aspect because dice don't have a way of creating suits to correspond with the cards. I'm losing that Poker aspect. My initial thought on that is to roll a d4 with every die...but that could get sloppy, and you don't require a roll of 5 dice every time so it isn't needed.

As I'm typing this, I guess the question I am working my way toward is "Why do you need the Poker/Card Game motif if cards aren't part of your system?" I think your system is intriguing. I like the idea of "wagering" on the outcome of the roll...both the actual result on the dice and the risk/reward. I just don't see a need to tie it to Poker thematically beyond the Weird West setting. Poker and the Old West are hard to separate, but I don't think you need one to use the other. That is to say, you can do a Weird West setting without poker terminology and mechanics getting involved in my opinion.

All that being said, I would be down for playtesting on this site if you wanted to. Even an informal game, just so you can try the different aspects of your work.

BTW: I also am kicking around a wager based mechanics game closer to Liar's Dice and have considered some of these ideas. Unfortunately I don't have a IRL gaming group to test it and PbP doesn't seem to work for me either. I need a way to keep die rolls hidden until the final reveal, but enforce honesty. Here I think the GM can see the results no matter what so wagering against them would be pointless. Cups work fine IRL...but online I don't know how to replicate that.

Thanks! I'll definitely be posting up more on it.
So an Empty Hand is just another title given to a certain type of roll. In D&D they have DC values. There are some checks, such as standing up or picking up an item, that are considered "DC 0" because they are so easy, and a roll is not needed to perform them so long as you're not under stress. In a non-combat situation, that's what Empty Hand is used for. You are predicting that your die roll, on a d20, will be 1-20, which is 100% likely. Additionally, with The Deal stage of non-combat tests, if a Player is able to so thoroughly negotiate the deal, or buy out the GM with Grit, then he can "Automatically Succeed" at a test. Another way of saying this is that he negotiates being allowed to succeed if he rolls an Empty Hand. It sounds sort of convoluted, but that's all that it is. In combat you are welcome to use Empty Hand to do minimal damage without any chance of failure.
I don't want to post up everything, because my notes are really messy, but I'm happy to explain things more thoroughly. The game is meant to reward those that take risks. In combat, this means you set stakes for yourself. You can choose to automatically hit them (by betting an Empty Hand), or you can choose to make things more difficult by narrowing the window of numbers that would count as successful for you. There are eight fixed types of die rolling predictions, and each are tied to a damage multiplier. As the chances of success diminish, the multiplier goes up. Your weapon, in addition to any talents that alter it, will have a "Base Damage" value which gets multiplied. Right now the base damage value that I've been working with is 2.

I've done probability charts to see how the damage per turn looks for people of skill values 1-6 (and thus rolling varying numbers of dice). Picking a single number (nat 20) and rolling it has the highest "damage per turn," even if it is doing 0 damage on most turns; That one time you roll a nat 20 is going to be some explosive damage. However, it likely isn't the most practical, since you could get killed before you ever see that pay off. That, and most enemies won't have health that justifies that kind of overkill (but being the genre that it is, there will be things that do).

For rolls outside of combat, the different predictions are not tied to any specific value. Instead, the GM uses his best judgement, aided by a difficulty chart table and lots of examples that would be in the book. Here, players can't say, "I bet an Empty Hand to jump from this cliff to that cliff," in the way that they can bet an Empty Hand (or whatever else they want) to be able to shoot an enemy. The player will have to work with the GM to form the nature of their attempt at making this jump (see: The Deal, in the first post) or they can just be given a prediction by the GM and attempt to roll it (similar to a GM in D&D saying, "This is a DC 15").

You could look at Combat Checks and their tie to specific damage values as predetermined deals, things that the GM will always agree to. If I roll a Straight, can I do 14 damage? Yes. Always. This is what a Straight does, and it doesn't have to be negotiated with the GM. However, that's not to say that players couldn't add Deal negotiations in with their Combat Checks. Whatever groups are comfortable with!
I think I may have misspoke somewhere along the line, or I wasn't clear somewhere in my initial post :( So the dice are dice, and are not meant to represent cards. You are betting on what numbers you're going to roll, and not betting on a hand that you're going to make, at least not in a literal sense. Suit doesn't come into play, and certain numbers don't represent certain types of cards in any way. All that I do when I make a roll is that I say, "I bet I'm going to roll a 16-20." Then I can roll as many d20s up to my Skill Level, spending Grit according to my Attribute for each die rolled, and I stop when I've rolled a 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20.
You're right :) I definitely don't need the poker terminology, but there's a reason for using it that may have already been made clearer by my deeper explanation at the start of this post. In combat, you have eight set types of predictions. Some of them would be really easy to say: "I bet I'll roll a 20!" or "I bet I'll roll an 18 or higher!" is really easy to understand. Probably easier than saying, "I'm betting a royal flush," or "I'm betting a straight flush." But there are some of the easier bets that are more complicated, including one that succeeds on 8 values and fails on 12. For that, I use Prime numbers. Anyway, point being, there are distinct types of rolls, and I couldn't think of a better way for people to eventually remember them by heart than to give them names. Poker hands and the ranking of their difficulty is something that most people are at least familiar with, and since it also fits with the setting I thought that it would be a nice way to attach the different probabilities to a name.

I had thought that this would make it easier to learn, but if it is only confusing or complicating things, then maybe I'll have to find a different way to represent the types of rolls that can be done.
Thank you! I'll definitely see if I can find a way to smoothly run the Deal mechanics on a PbP setting. If I can't, then maybe we can make a Discord server to use for a playtest sometime. It'll probably be a ways off, though. There's a lot to still work out.
That sounds really neat! Liar's Dice is a ton of fun; You should post something up for it, in case people have ideas.