Feature: Comments on RP posts (OOC Flip-Pane)

It is actively being discussed again, and many have missed in the past, so we can think about a way to implement this if it is not too much work:

A different site had a feature where each roleplay post could have comments added to it, these would appear 'behind' the post, clicking the Comments(n) button would 'flip' the post and one would see the comments instead of the post.

This had the upside that people could comment on posts and not disrupt the roleplay flow. Comments and RPs were tied together.

This also had some downsides, for instance one could not see the post that was being commented on while reading the comments, and it was very hard to find a comment later, since one needed to click on every post to search for if that was the rp the comment was on.

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One potential solution, off the top of my head, and possible not for v1:

As a simple mechanism, when saving a post (1) the system can scan it for links (it is already scanning for illegal tags or javascript and such), if the link is to a post on GP, we can create an entry in a new database table...

... say `rp_comments`, which contains two indexed integer ids, one the post_id of this comment and the other the post_id of the 'rp thread' it links to. (For each link, in case they go to different 'rp posts'.)

When rendering a post, we can check for the post_id in the 'second' column, and if it exists in the table, we can create a 'Comments' section/button/spoiler that links to each comment. Maybe it can include the first x number of characters/lines so we don't need to go there for short-enough posts.

If the db join and lookup is too expensive on each post render, we could add a single-bit-field to the posts table that indicates if the post we are rendering has 'comments' and only process this if that is true. This would be NULL for everything at first, but new `has_comments` flags can be added with new posts.

Once this works it would not be onerous to do a one-time check of every post (starting at the most recent and working backwards), to see it they have internal links, and then adding them to the `rp_comments` table for future viewing.

As a side-note/second-step we could designate a 'Comments thread' when creating a 'game thread' (same place we do 'discord integration'?), this would just be the thread id (and we could automate creating that thread if it does not exist?). Then we could add a Comment Button that creates a post in the Comment thread that contains a link back to 'the RP' (this does 'force' a style, but many people don't like 'manual' work, doing it manually should still work fine since this just handles the copy/paste URL and posting to the 'right' thread, or even just 'opening that thread in a new tab').

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Footnotes:
1. Possibly only in designated threads? (2)
2. But I see value in this 'list of back-links' for general posts if we can bring the cost down.

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Let's discuss?

I'm gonna move this to Site Discussions in general since it's not a bug.

Essentially, we're talking about the other site having had subthreads, right? Only on that site, it was basically the superset of how we treat forums/subforums/threads/posts, but there it was game/threads/posts/subpost, if my understanding/experience is correct. So I think if we want to tackle this, it needs to be a focus on what this achieves to figure out how we may want to solve that problem with how GP works.

If we ignore the site the idea comes from and how it worked there, what's the purpose? What is the problem we're trying to solve? It sounds like some folks may want further separation (in structure) between RP and OOC, while allowing for more OOC on RP elements. But what does that do for the game? I think specially not having seen the implementation outside of my own experimentation on the site, I don't know how it helped gameplay, so I'm unable to think of how to work on an implementation.

I like the idea of checking a post for links to GP, which is readily doable (though the current site doesn't scan for tags or js; PHP has built in functions that simply remove HTML tags of any kind), but its still not clear on why. So lets start there to figure out the how.

Essentially, I see this as an efficiency issue. We have all the tools to comment on posts through quotes, links, OOC tags, extra threads, etc. What this is proposing, to me, is taking those and just putting them together in a single location. It isn't really adding anything we can't already do. It's proposing a one-step comment option rather than a two-step.

I see the value in having an easily accessible, standardized comment field. I also see a lot of work for others so that we can add laughing emojis to a post. Personally, I'm not sold on the necessity. It's nice, but not needed.

Let's not worry about the time involved until we can figure out 1) what the requested feature is, and 2) if it's something folks really want. I'm hoping with the SDC, we can implement a backlog. If it's something we want for the site, it can always go into the backlog, and where in the backlog would depend on if people feel like it's a need, want, nice to have, alongside complexity.

Good. I should have looked for a better place than Bugs, I labeled it Feature because it was not a bug... and because Feature Request was too long. :)
At its essence it links posts about a post to that post. When I make an OOC post about a RP post I include a link to that RP post. (Take for example the [ref] link in the third post of this OOC [link]). This is fine when looking at the OOC about the RP post —we can see the link— but there is nothing to suggest to anyone looking at the RP that there were comments about it.

I am proposing we engineer a way for the RP post to 'know' that someone has commented on it and display a link to the comment.

All we really need would be an indication, maybe at the bottom of the post, that things link to it. I would like to keep this subtle, so readers who don't care about the comments can easily ignore it. Something small that expands when clicked would be ideal.
I don't think that is called for. All I am proposing is a way to know if some other post refers to this post. This is a generally useful feature, and would fulfil the requirement for the whole OOC Flip-Pane feature from elsewhere, while still maintaining the superior system of these 'Comments' being a proper thread that works and can be read from top to bottom and searched.

I missed this feature of the other site, but quickly became irritated with how it did it when I started to see how things were better here (except for the lack of back-reference). I wouldn't want to implement what they did, I like that everything is just a forum thread, and the only thing that makes one an OOC or Comments thread is how we use it.
Indeed a good question. Here is an example that might help. It is just from the most recent thread I made, so not particularly good (and I hope @Owlbeer does not mind being put on blast:):

The player (new) made a post with strange formatting, I posted a 'comment' about that post suggesting how they could achieve their goal, they said thank you and got it right on the second try. This mainly illustrates the need to comment on posts, anyone reading the post does not need to see the discussion as it is resolved.

Further down that thread in post 9 [link], I clarify if 'Final' and 'Jindal' are the same character (with a typo). Someone reading the RP might still be confused about the name confusion since they have no way to know there was a discussion that cleared it up. Having that RP post note that another post references it is the aim.
That is why I proposed this solution. It seems easy enough and covers the RP Comment requirement as well as being generally useful.

The 'side-note/second-step' is not at all needed for this, people can manually copy/paste a link to the post they are commenting on or referring to, it just might be an nice ease-of-use addition for the specific use-case of 'RP comments'. Same with creating a connection between them on thread creation, that can all come much later and build on this feature once we have internal links visible.

I also think that such a feature would be useful. Even though it's possible to have 2 threads (OOC and IC), it's often difficult to connect an OOC post with the correct IC post if there is no exact link in added that OOC post.

On the other hand, OOC text inside the IC thread don't really bother me. But it's not possible to add OOC text to someone else's post.

In terms of execution, to me it seems like a tough balance between keeping things looking 'neat and tidy' and at the same time make the feature useful. (Taking into account vagueGM's comments on it being difficult to search for a comment afterwards and such)

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Would the following be possible?:
When using a link like this in any thread, clicking the link doesn't navigate to that page, but instead opens a pop-up which shows only that post.

It's kinda the reverse of doing a scan for every reference. The drawback here is that you can't tell from the referenced post that a comment has been made.

Just an idea, either way :)

That's actually a good point. Just an indication can already help greatly.

Ok, so rather than look at this as the "subthread" direction (which was basically what TK did), lets start with with post references. I take the key feature we want there is back references? I make post 1 that does something. Someone else makes post 2, where there's a link in it to post 1 for whatever reason. We're not proposing a change to post 2, but rather something on post 1 that shows it was referenced in post 2? A subscript? What would we want that to look like? Something simple like:

Yes. That is what I am proposing.
For now, maybe put those inside a spoiler or snippets or abilities tag —anything that starts closed and can expand— so people who don't want to see them don't end up with a page full of references. Show nothing if there is nothing. Maybe the 'spoiler text' can show the number of Reference?

In the long-run I would like to be able to see the contents of the posts from that References list, but that can come later once the functionality is in place.

Ok, that's doable. I can see the value in a bunch of different places, though we need to consider if it should be opt in or opt out. For example, references to things like kalajel's bundle posts or to public repo threads would be overwhelming.

That is why I want it in a small, easily ignored, spoiler at a minimum. :)

Opt-in/out per thread could be worth it? But we could start with opt-in per game and see how it goes, then extend it to 'Community Posts' later?

If I could Comment on posts I would comment:

💯 AGREE

... on the above.

After my 9 years here, with multiple multi-year games etc, I can confidently say this is not at all needed.

The fact that there are kind community-oriented individuals here who are willing to devote time to even talking about it? Much less work toward active implementation???

That says way more about how great GP is than whether or not it has "Comments".

Whoever raised this "issue" as an issue should recognize how lucky they are to have found this place due to that fact alone.

It would definitely be a quality of life improvement, only.

While I liked the flip-tiles on the other site, there *were* some pitfalls — Vague mentioned the biggest one, which was trying to find a specific post someone made somewhere.

Basically we’re talking about enabling ‘comments’ on each post. If that’s easy, and would include reactions, cool. If it’s not, I think there are way higher priorities. Including the GM Panel I need to write up!

If this can be added inside a spoiler of some kind what is the need for linking them to a separate thread? Just have the spoiler hide the text and expand to show it in the OOC box. Have the OOC box either scroll (like when you edit an ability block) or compress individual responses over 2 lines. This keep the original post and responses all on the same page. Put the spoiler below the original post, inline with "Delete", "Edit" and "Quote", so it is clear to not be part of the original post.

Full on OOC conversations not related to a specific post would not need to be linked, but could via the current method.

I'm very pleased to see this feature enhancement being discussed, as it was a very important feature of the Tavern-Keeper.com site, which was relied upon heavily for both game management and social bonding during the four years I ran my game on that site, and there doesn't appear to be anything to mirror it on GP.

I'm not very technical, so I really have no idea how TK managed to make this feature work. But its main advantage was that it was extremely simple for the GM and Players to use, and so encouraged pro-active play and social interactions related to gameplay.

Agree there, Didz. It's like having a running sidebar / commentary / peanut gallery and can really foster group cohesion.

I think it's good that VagueGM is keeping an eye on the performance cost. I think one reason TK closed down was the server expense. GP has a low user base (and, unless PbP becomes super popular, probably always will), which keeps server costs down. But staying aware of performance demands and VagueGM's suggestions of ajax on-demand loading of comments (great plan, Vague), should hopefully keep GP self-supporting through donations.

I have mixed feelings about this feature, but I want to call for it being optional if it's implemented, and personally I would prefer opt-in.

I can see the uses of this, but it's not a feature which appeals to me for OOC communication - it's the opposite, actually, I feel like it would discourage me from joining the games which have it. I wouldn't want people to comment on my posts as there'll be no way for me to remove these references if I don't want to see them, and I also sometimes link posts as in "info was revealed here", for which I really don't think a reference back is needed - so I'll have to either link to a thread page or just quote instead so the reference is not added,

I'd rather stick to my usual OOC banter, and this feature being default will make that harder.

(To be fair, I also just don't like the idea of adding comments to someone else's post, so this wasn't for me from the beginning. XD)

Expense was certainly mentioned as the main reason for TK shutting down. The site owner stated that it was costing him $300 a month in server fees and was leaving him out of pocket. However, I don't think that was the main cause of the problem. The site was very badly promoted and had no subscription system, and I always got the impression that I was the only person using it. It's only since joining GP and seeing all the other new members in the 'TK Refugee' thread that I've become aware that there were so many others using the site. It's also apparent that many of us were paying little or nothing for the benefits we were receiving.

When you look at other sites that are charging a minimum of $4 per month for membership, you begin to realise just what a bargain TK was and that it would not have taken many members to become patrons to cover the server costs. Just the cost of a pint every month would have kept it running, but Bill never asked or insisted on payment at all.

I'm not sure what the user base of GP is, but I get the impression there are more people on here than there were on TK. But that might be a false impression arising from the more active community forum.
To be fair that wasn't the way it was used in my game and shouldn't be how a decent group of players would use it.

Far from making it easier to make abusive comments about another player's post I found it was a feature that was used to compliment other players on their contribution and to encourage richer roleplay. We found that most of our players did want feedback on their posts, and that it helped to bind the group together and improve our commitment and enjoyment of the game.

I certainly got a kick out of the feedback I got on my GM posts and was encouraged to keep up the standard of my narrative asa result.

But I can imagine some toxic players might try to abuse it, although I'd be more concerned that they were in my group than worrying about how they spread their poison.

Oh, of course! With a group you trust not to do something you dislike it's not an issue. :D I don't even expect people to generally misuse it; the problem is, I just experience anxiety over the weirdest things sometimes and would feel weird about asking people to remove seemingly harmless comments that bother me. So it's easier if it doesn't happen at all.

I get your love for feedback on posts, certainly! I myself post a lot of OOC about other characters' actions and the general situation. But I don't need it to be tied to a specific post and I'm pretty content to just comment in the game thread or the OOC thread without the need for it to be linked (or if there is a need, then just using quotes). I suppose for me personally references just don't add anything - I already do this stuff, just via a different method.