New Feature Idea: Site Experience (Need Feedback)

So this is feature that's definitely being implemented; I need your feedback on how.

Site Experience - fake internet points earned for activity on the site! Who doesn't love fake internet points?

The idea is to reward you with nothing meaningful for using the site! Actions on the site would give you "experience", which would result in gaining levels, which would grant you access to... stuff. The question comes down to how much experience various activities add, when you should level, and what leveling should get you.

Earning XP
First, lets talk about gaining experience (remember, these are theoretical and up for discussion):
- Making a post earns you 1xp

- Creating a game earns you 10xp
-- When a game you're running hits 500 posts, and every 500 thereafter, you earn 50xp
- Being accepted to a game earns you 5xp
-- When a game you're playing in hits 500 posts from when you joined, and every 500 thereafter, you earn 25xp

- Resetting every 7 days, making a character earns 10xp, a second earns 5xp, and everyone thereafter earns 1xp
- For every 25 views a character you have in the library gets, you'll earn 5xp (for this, I'll probably set it up so people can't just refresh to get a view; maybe one view per hour per user? And no, your own views don't count.)

What else should earn xp?

Leveling
As for when to level, I'm thinking you need 500 * level to earn the next level. So starting at 0, you'd need 500 for level 1, 1000 for level 2. But that means you'd need a total of 1500 to be at level 2.

Rewards
So my first thought of reward is at level 1, you can upload images. Right now, I don't have a system of uploading images, but its easy to implement. I didn't add anything because I don't want anyone to abuse it by uploading files that could contain a virus (I've tried to prevent stuff like that, but I'm no security pro), or by uploading a ton of files, eating up the server space. Something a lot of other forums do is give you a limited amount of upload space; I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Setting other privileges with leveling is also an idea, but a mixed one. I don't want people to feel left out because they don't have the points yet.

An easy reward as you level is access to titles and ribbons; vanity items basically. The problem is, I'm bad at that kind of artwork and would need help with that.

What other rewards could I add?

I love fake internet points! It works for Reddit! Sounds like a great idea, and you would have time to think of further rewards, as it would take a little bit to get to 500.

Well, I'd make as much of it as possible retroactive, which means some people would already be at level 1. Maybe (Level) ^ 2 * 500 instead? But that might be too much... level 3 would need 4500xp.

Threads and posts maybe should earn something. To keep it from being spammy maybe limit xp earned for posting 3-5 times a day, but at least it would hopefully inspire some discussion on the site. If it gets too spammy you could always stop doing it.

I agree that you should get XP for posts, the longer the thread the more XP. Maybe something like 5/3/1 for the first three threads in a week's time, with +5 (3?) XP when you get 10/25/50/100/150/200/etc replies.

+500XP when a post you make gets stickied or becomes a "hot" post.

The issue with the longer the thread, the more XP, is it encourages threads to go past their prime into other topics. Plus, someone shouldn't be penalized because their thread isn't as active IMO. If someone's in a lot of games, they'll get a lot of post XP (as game threads tend to go for a while), rather than someone who's more active on the public forums, where threads will be naturally smaller. I did try to take into account bonus XP when a game is active however, as seen above.

Also, any admin can sticky, and that would encourage needless stickying :p

I was meaning just the "community" boards, not in-game boards. In-game XP should be different. I don't know if that is feasible or not, though.

An interesting idea, but I can see a few issues with that.

1st. You won't be able to post maps for your game until you've ran your game for a while.

2nd. You won't be able to upload your files of homebrewed (although, this one is less of an issue since you could use external links to some hosting site) for your campaign until you've ran your campaign for a while.

I get that you are worried about people posting virus-infected files, but at the same time, it seems to me anyone using the internet this day and age should be using some decent anti-virus by now... and if you're not then might I suggest you check Avast: it's free and a really good anti-virus, but I digress.

I'm not against this idea of XP and levels and perks, but removing tools GMs need to run their games until they earn the XP to use them seems a bit counterproductive to me. Perhaps you should revise your ideas of perks for gaining levels. For example, many other forums I frequent have member titles. One of them allows you to edit your own title and make it whatever you want once you reach 500 posts. This could be one possible idea of a perk for gaining levels right here...

Well, in theme with the site, I was gonna offer more and more titles as you level, and maybe have custom titles at a higher level, but yah, where it goes is what this discussion needs.

As for images: I wouldn't remove the ability to link images, as now, but rather not needing to host them elsewhere. But my bigger concern on viruses is instead server side, not user side. And of course, its the space issue.

Perhaps add a constant amount to each level? 500 1st level, 1100 2nd level, 1800 3rd level, etc.

could always borrow the exp curve from your favorite rpgs (d&d, pathfinder, etc)

I've been considering that. For example, the standard there is previous level * 1000, if I remember correctly? I prefer something with a sharper scale. The issue is there isn't too much I can offer for leveling right now, so I want it to be a sharp scale. I'm really considering 500 * (Level) ^ 2 (1: 500, 2: 2000, 3: 4500, 4: 8000, 5: 12500). It allows for average activity to quickly get level 1, but further levels require time. Or maybe 250 * (Level) ^ 2 (1: 250, 2: 1000, 3: 2250, 4: 4000, 5: 6260), or something between 250 and 500. No matter what we pick, it'll probably end up needing tweaking as time goes on (if I do so, I'd set it up so if the level reqs go up, you'd never lose privileges, if they go down, you may level early).

How about current level squared times 100?
so you get
100
400
900
1600
2500
3600
4900
6400
8100
10000
12100
14400
etc.

100 is too low. Getting to 400 or 900 with the current xp rates listed above would be achieved far too quickly. Something between 250 and 500 is best I think...

Current level squares times 250 then. I was thinking this exact formula might not be exactly to your likings, so the "100" was more than a placeholder than anything. feel free to change it with whatever number you feel is more appropriate...

Heh, sorry, I thought you meant 100 as a recommendation. I proposed (Level) ^ 2 * (multiplier) in the post right above yours :p Thanks for the input though!

It really depends on how much exp each different thing gives. If a post gives 5exp for instance, 100 takes a while to get to.

Oh, my bad, I did not understood what "^ 2" meant... I see that my suggestion is pretty much what you had already planned on doing...

Well, not really. At 5xp, only be posting, if you're in one game and active in the public forums, you'd hit 20 posts in a week or two. If you made a game or added some character's, you could hit 100xp in a few days. I'm leaning to 250. I don't have much in the way of rewards yet, so what'd be the point of leveling?

So that's the big question we need to discuss: rewards. What do you think of privileges as rewards? What rewards would you like to see, and if the rewards are generic (like titles), how should that be split up?

--Person with most exp in a forum // subforum gets a special mark or title. This can be stripped if someone oneups you.

--Awards, icons, titles, ranks. You could do contests that award exp or special things like that for instance.

--If you happen to get beta's that come thru you have the spots open to people of certain levels or requirements.

Titles and awards icons are a good idea. The ability to edit your own title eventually.

I was thinking maybe having limited character slots, and the ability to unlock more as you gain levels, like I dunno, 4 or 5 to begin with. But then again, it's putting restrictions where none exist yet, so this might not fly too well with some people...

Now that I understand your idea of on-site hosting, this might work too...

A limited number of campaign slots you start with, with the ability to unlock more as you level up? But why would someone run more than 2 campaigns at a time?

The ability to view other players' character? (this one has always bugged me, or at least view the character of those who are running in the same game as you...)

Gain access to on-site avatars, either for your account or for your character?

What about adding a capability that would allow people to "thumb up" or "up vote" other users contributions? For example, let's say I make a brilliant post of some sort that people really love and they have the ability to "up vote" (once per contribution and anonymously). Every "up vote" is worth some small amount of XP.

How about instead of unlocking features at certain levels your XP earns you some sort of currency. Like one "dollar" per 100XP and then give a choice of things people can unlock with their currency. Say for $2 I can put some sort of cool thing about my avatar, but I'd much rather have some other thing that costs $4. I can skip the $2 thing and save up for the $4 thing. Currency spent is lost, XP earned is kept. You could even tip some of your currency to others.

BAH! I COMPLETELY FORGOT TO MENTION ONE OF MY BIG THINGS FOR THE XP SYSTEM! THANK YOU SZEMELY! (You may have been the person I discussed this with originally).

Spend XP on liking posts! I love the idea of liking someone's stuff, but I don't want it to be abused. My concept was basically a like or tip system. You can like someone's post, but it'll cost you, lets say 2xp. The person earns 1xp per like they get.

I do like the idea of rather than leveling, or maybe adjacent to, spending xp on stuff.

How about a "draw my own hero" tool on the site, sort of like what Hero Machine does? You can spend more XP to unlock more sets? Like you could start with basic fantasy set, basic modern set, and basic sci-fi set and then unlock more sets by spending XP?

That'd be an awesome idea. But I'm having enough trouble thinking of titles, let alone avatars! Anyone out there and artist who likes working for (a small, small bit of) publicity?

When you say "draw my own hero", do you mean an actual drawing tool? Because that's a big tool to develop :D

As someone who designs board games (and uses games in the classroom), I have some cautionary remarks:

You should reflect on what behaviour your XP system encourages. If creating a character is worth 1 XP, expect thousands of (not terribly well created) characters to appear. If posting is worth 1 XP, expect the off-topic subforms to explode with activity and forum games as users seek to increase their rank.

I also see you've anticipated some abuse, and have proposed limitations on things. However, gamification works best the easier it is to comprehend for users. The more conditionals on XP gain there are, the more difficult it is to comprehend (no one wants to read a 10 page document to learn how to level up, well maybe RPG gamers are an exception to that insight ;)).

Finally, the more "important" the system is, the more you can expect people to want to "win" and do whatever it takes to do so (for example, if there was a leader board expect more 'system gaming' behaviour than if there wasn't).

All of this is to say, decide what the ultimate *goal* of gamifying the forum is. Ensure that all efforts move towards that goal, and be sure to block of loose tendrils of abuse (because if a path exists, someone will, eventually, pursue it).

* * *

Real suggestion: The forum primarily needs 1) people running games and 2) people playing games and 3) existing games to succeed and continue for as long as possible. I would focus XP around those variables, with a lot of weight put onto 3. Consider this:

- 10 XP as soon as a game you GM is full of players and every player has posted at least once in the game forum
- 5 XP as soon as a game you joined as a player meets the condition specified above
- 1+X XP at the end of a week if every player (including the GM) has posted in the game forum within that week
X = number of times the 1 XP award has been given out for that game

This rewards players for using the site as intended. The best way to abuse it? Use the site as intended (well, actually, it's probably to get a single friend and create a dozen games with just them and post in all games 1/week with just a random throwaway post -- you could write a bot). Which is to say, it's hard (but on the other hand, accounting for all possible abusive strategies is impossible - what you want to do is make sure the path of least resistance to XP gain involves doing the activities you want people to do).

Great thoughts Candi! Its also why I'm trying to avoid rewards being substantial; I figure if the rewards are superfluous, then people won't try to game the system.

If people spam posts, then they'll get blocked; spamming is already against the rules. One of the reasons I didn't propose giving xp for making characters was to avoid character spam. Instead, it'd be on visits, so you can't control it. Sure, people could create multiple accounts, but I track IP addresses, and that's something people could do anyway.

I prefer to give XP for game landmarks rather than over a time period, simply because sometimes games slow down, sometimes they're faster, etc.

Great! How do you measure landmarks though (without requiring a thread naming convention -- in my games it's easy because I create threads for "Chapters" and finishing a chapter is a significant landmark!)

Sorry, you were proposing XP for posts per week; I'm proposing XP rewards when you hit a certain number of posts instead. By landmarks, I mean activity landmarks.

I was proposing a 'group activity' landmark. In any case, the difference between posts/week and total posts is a matter of granularity. If you get 100 XP for reaching 1000 posts, then that's pretty well the same as getting 0.1 XP per post (you just don't get your pile of XP until you finish the quest, versus getting it through ought the session).

If you want XP to be an economy spent on jazz (titles, flairs, icons, likes) then you probably want a more granular way to gain XP (since a good economy ebbs and flows).

Great point. I'll spend some time reconsidering this and we should start to come up with some specific rewards/tiers, since it seems we have a good starting point.

One cool reward idea from Board Game Geek is overtext (which is text that pops up when you hover your mouse over top of the persons avatar). It's completely superfluous, but a fun bit of customization. They also have "banners" which is a small (about 20px high, equal width of the avatar) image that goes above your avatar (and you can get overtext for both your avatar and your 'uber badge', which is what they call the banner). That's at least 3 "levels" worth of reward that don't require you to have any skills besides coding ;)

You could do the same with flairs or a bar of 3-5 icons below the user name (let users upload flairs to a board flair database, where a flair is a 30x30 px icon or something like that -- then users can spend XP to buy flairs and then put those below their avatar)... actually, what I'm basically saying is you could just 'borrow' the Geek Gold thing from Board Game Geek as a proven-to-work starting point ;)

Another user sent me a message, which gave me some interesting ideas.

Instead of giving straight xp for actions, what about achievements for activity, a la Steam? So When you make a character, you get an achievement. You get another one at 10 characters, 50, etc. Some achievements would be one shot (like characters created, posts, etc), others would be repeat (be in a game reaching 1000 posts).

From there, either achievements could earn rewards or earn xp that could be spent on rewards. It would promote activity, but would be easier to manage.

If achievements had icons, and you had customizable icon bars below avatars users could even wear as badges of pride icons for the achievements they have won that they are most proud of!

Not exactly a "drawing" tool, but more like a program with a lot of pre-drawn assets you can put together to make to create a character. Sort of what Hero Machine and Fabrica De Herois are already doing. Not sure how better I can explain the idea...

Yeah, I was also starting to wonder about how the XP system could lead to abuse and spamming and was about to post some suggestions, but Candi pretty much beat me to the point and his suggestions are really good.

I know you want to avoid granting XP after periods of time since games can speed up or slow down, but how about making it a month (30 days) instead of a week? This way, no matter how slowed down a game gets, you're pretty much guaranteed to see at least one post a month...

edit: Oh, I thought a bit more about szemely's idea of thumbs up and thumbs down, and I think you should just do thumbs up or likes to avoid "liking wars" and people being a jerk to one another, disliking other people's posts to prevent them from gaining XP...

Oh yah, no intention of introducing a downvote or dislike system. It's petty and not useful.

So this thought just occurred to me ... what if your profile is, itself, set up like a character sheet.

When you level up you can gain stats and skill points to customize yourself on various superfluous but fun skills, feats, abilities, etc.
This could later on make for some really fun games that could be run with peoples profiles as the character.
So say I join the site, i get a couple stat points to plug into my abilities. and probably a couple skill points to put in areas of interests...
you could either make this relevant to the games and such people play, or completely unrelated like it's own shebang.

If you're doing achievements for things, I'd say this profile character would be almost like making your own PC (and indeed it could be!)

I like that idea, though I'm having trouble seeing it fleshed out (in terms of skills/feats/etc).

Given all this discussion, I'm leaning away from site experience. It's been mentioned that XP systems could lead to people trying to game the system. Achievements on the other hand, are less likely to be gamed. The only thing I'd want to figure out is the "like" feature. I don't want to make it unlimited, as people will go around liking random posts. Maybe a daily limit to the number of posts you can like? Which you can boost via achievements? Or any other ideas?

You can easily fix anyone being able to game an exp system on the site if you put a daily exp cap, or weekly exp cap.
World of Warcraft does this with weekly guild dungeons/raids. only the first howevermany count for bonus exp/rewards. After you've done those they can't be earned till the next week. Pretty simple way to keep something like that from being abused.

Wouldn't the XP be awarded for your posts that are liked and not you liking posts? I fail to see how this would make people go in a like binge with the possible exception of a few people agreeing to like each other's posts. But if you make it so we can't game the site XP, then this should not be much of a problem...

This could cause post bloat. Perhaps limit post XP gains to the game's specified number of posts per day.

As mentioned, needlessly posting would still fall under the site's spam policy. If someone just went around posting without content, I'd disable their ability to post/ban them.

Perhaps if you ran into that, give them a timeout of sorts. Maybe give them a short ban and reset their XP?

Easy there, Satan!! (Sorry, just jealous I didn't think of that one first.)

You might get annoying stuff like players splitting their posts into 2 posts, 3 posts, 5 posts for the extra EXP, which would stretch out the forum pages and make me sigh endlessly. Personally I prefer editing my posts to add extra detail, and it would annoy me if players posted their responses 1 sentence at a time just to farm EXP.

With the idea of rewards: it would make sense for GMs to have access to image uploads, with players only being able to link URLs until they reach level 3 or something. That is, only if image uploads = added bandwidth and cost. (by the way, I'd love to see uploads as it would save me a lot of time creating URLs that some of my players say they can't see anyway). I think all you really need is a 'level' and/or title (maybe each forum member could choose to progress in a 'class'?) which could display when you post.

I like Candi's post about encouraging behaviour. I see that GP has two goals:

1) Play by post - the core feature of GP is the PbP funtionality, so starting games, continuing to run games, and participating in games are both key. XP benefits should encourage these three activities.

2) RPG central - the expanded role of GP is to create a community among RPGers, including character sheet hosting, public dice rollers, and open forums. XP benefits should encourage and attract these activities.

Perhaps XP could be split into two tracks: PbP currency and Other currency. I'm drawing a blank on names for these, but maybe PbP xp could be called 'stamps' (in homage to the humble origins of pbp) or 'gp' (game points) and the Other Currency could be called 'sp' (site points).

The purpose of the two currencies is to promote two different activities, and not to confuse achievements in one with the other. Also, to promote cross-breeding of purposes: participating more in the community or joining a game to get the other currency reward.

This ^ (just using it as an example, not singling you out Biscuitfiend) and the whole "well what if people abuse the system?!" thing all really come back to the same thing that happens when we're playing RPGs. People who min/max or munchkin are going to find ways around the system you put in place regardless of how tight you might make it. On that note there's nor real reason to try and make it so people can't break the system. You'd be better off in making the system have limits that can't be worked around.

If each post gave you 5exp for instance, and you could only gain 100exp per day from posts, then you -might- get people who do make 20 posts in a given day. But anyone who was going to post this much anyways probably isn't doing it purely for the site exp, and even if they are, that's added activity to the site and drives traffic -which is something you do want to encourage.

If you want to use exp on the site then make a list of things that you can gain exp from and how much each gives you. Then find a way people can use or spend the exp to do something, this causes a supply and demand effect for the people who really want exp and whatever it buys.

-Things you should get exp from should include: new topic, new post, new thead, new subforum, new game, new pc, new npc, new monster/mob, posting a guide/tutorial, suggesting a new idea that's awesome and gets implemented, finding a bug we didn't know about, first signing up.

These can all be varying amounts with things that can be abused being worth less exp, (new posts) while things that are useful and increase activity and community should be worth more (new topic, an npc for people to use, new monster mobs, guides).

Limit the total exp a person can gain per day or week to actually make abuse of the system nigh impossible, but to also make those who are more active obviously gain it faster than those who are on once a week. This is pretty much how you'd want to do an exp system that hinges on user activity if you're worried about people abusing something that give you nothing of any real value aside from some cool stuff on the site to add to your profile.

Trying different systems should lead to an XP increase. Like I have only done 5e but if I jump into a Savage worlds game a 50xp (one time) gift for attempting a new game. Probably should be awarded after the tenth post in the new game or something. :)

I considered bonus XP for variety, but I'm not really sure I want to. I don't want to push people into different games in an attempt to get more XP, if its not something they like. But I probably will give a badge for variety, or maybe a small XP boost.