Game Discussion Board

Brindel is packed and waiting for the Lyft to take him to the gate.

Oops. Mixing genres.

Okay once everyone that is going chimes in by responding to Brindel's good morning or arriving if they are not already there -- I will kick that one off and we will get underway.

My apologies to everyone by my absence last week and half. I was experience some difficulties, but I should be more or less back in the game. I'll catch up on the happenings - although I don't believe anything very important changes, at quick glance? - and post as Egret when I can!
(But just in case, if I ever disappear like this again, feel free to ghost Egret - his default behavior is to be neutral, after all!)

No big deal I was experiencing delays myself -- and then there are the delays to folks due to the pandemic -- so all-in-all things are moving a lot slower here than usual

Trying to be around.

Okay going to play a bit with the extremely minor cantrips (Druidcraft, Prestidigitation, and Thaumaturgy) -- I would like to theme them a bit more which would involve expanding them and constricting them at the same time.

For instance the Druid deals with the natural world as such their Druidcraft would reflect this, conversely this is different but similar to Thaumaturgy since they both involve deities. Then we have Prestidigitation or the more Arcane spin on this.

What I am considering -- and I am asking for input on this from you all -- is as I said tailoring these to reflect a theme of a sorts. It makes sense that Druidcraft is Transmutation for most of its effects but it seems to have a bit of Abjuration and Divination in there as well. Thaumaturgy on the other-hand seems to be mostly Enchantment in nature with a bit of Transmutation and then I would expand them into the Necromantic realm as well. This would leave Conjuration, Evocation and Illusion for Prestidigitation which interestingly enough seems to fit the bill for the basic things it can do.

This way each caster type (aka specific minor-cantrip spell) would have a themed set of spell types that you could then use more dynamically to create the very-minor effects within the guidelines of what is allowed for that spell and then the "Things you can do" would simply be examples.

So again I would like to hear your input on this if you have any.

nice to have cantrips do stuff.. More is good.

Okay I have tweaked Druidism (aka Druidcraft) to be what I am planning to do with the other 2 spells like it. If you want to see a precursor to what the others will look like.

Yes in DnD5e in the PHB (page 154) the list of Tools are actually a list of Skills -- Artisan's Tools are mostly crafting skills -- personally I think they were inappropriate named (and/or handled) but whatever -- so basically if you are proficient with at set of Tools you are proficient with the Skill that uses those tools

So if we were to look at the Artisan's Tools you would see that if you have proficiency with:

Alchemist's Supplies ----- then you have the skill Alchemy
Brewer's Supplies -------- then you have the skill Brewing
Cartographer's Tools ----- then you have the skill Cartography
etc....
Thieves Tools ------------ actually means you have the skill Locksmithy (which is also used with traps)

As for the Knowledge Skills -- all I did was clarify (or expand) what they cover -- they are still strictly just Knowledge Skills and nothing more.

Note -- Untrained means you get no proficiency bonus and the best you can obtain as a result is a 10 (even if you roll a 20) further if you are attempting to perform a skill that has tools associated with it and you do not have the necessary Tools/Supplies then you are at a Disadvantage to your roll. So attempting to draw a map without Cartographer's Tools and without being proficient in that skill means you get no proficiency bonus and you make the roll with Disadvantage -- however Disadvantage can be cancelled by having Advantage if applicable ... although in some cases it does state if you are suffering Disadvantage then Advantage simply does not apply (aka does not cancel the Disadvantage).

Does that clarify things?

Sure does! With Shump being proficient in the tool Lute. That means a lot more than I suspected. Someday he will get another Lute. Last one was stolen/lost eta.... Shump has Map Case with Area Maps listed on him as he does guiding for a living. How much does that help in the current adventuring?

Trying to get more a feel for the character. Haven't had much play with him.

Some more info on Dukagsh diety would be good too.

Those would be maps showing you the way points and general path north to the various mines in the mountains to the north as well as a the mines south of the village. The hills northeast have no static points until you get way to the west and no one has mapped the Marsh, Forest of Wyrms nor the Serpent Hills beyond a they be here kind of thing. So you have a map similar to the Far Reach map with a bit more knowledge of what resides in the hills to northeast as that is where you originated from. Granted Yroc clans/tribes do not have maps of that region as they depend on their scouts for that. Still feel free to ask questions or make rolls if you like do know things about the region that you the player may not already know and make notes ;)

When I read p154 I understood that they referred to the granting of proficiency bonuses for a craft. But I totally understand if you want to create a list of skills to describe each of them.

The untrained check seems harsh though: a roll cap of 10 isn't something I'm familiar with in 5e. I suppose I'm more used to defining difficulty using DC. But again, it's a house rule, so no worries. Would you consider not have tools a double penalty though: we're taking away the proficiency bonus for not having the tools AND giving disadvantage. In total that's a triple penalty.

My bad for not understanding this earlier, otherwise it would've made sense for the party to own collectively a set of all the tools.

No the roll cap of 10 is not a house rule its in the normal guidelines although maybe I might be broading its use to cover craft skills as well but the concept is already there.

Not having a proficiency bonus is not a penalty its the basic state of things. You are either proficient and gain the bonus for it or you are not proficient and do not gain the bonus that is not a penalty that is simply a lack of a bonus. Also I am not taking away the bonus those are the standard guidelines

Also not having the actual tools whether proficient or not carries the Disadvantage to your roll per the normal guidelines

And the party owning a full set of every Tool is a rather lengthy list of Tools and perhaps a bit of over kill however yes possessing some of the tools whether you know actually how to use them or not can be handy at times but I would suggest getting tools for only those skills you plan on learning later on. One does not normally go out and buy tools for doing something if they never plan to learn how to do that something.

I'm sorry I cannot find the roll cap of 10, but no worries, I'm not too bothered by this as the DM always gets to determine DC level anyway, so it's essentially a +10 to difficulty, understood.

Still clarifying: so not having the tools means no proficency bonus is granted AND the roll is disadvantaged? Whereas having the tools gives the proficency bonus and does not disadvantage the roll, am I correct?

Or did you mean for PCs to have a skill of craft skills, like what you listed, ie. brewing, alchemy, cartography etc? And this is what grants proficency. And this is separate from whether you own the tools for it or not, which detemines a normal or a disadvantaged roll.

Okay I did a quick look with no success but I am pretty sure the concept is within the DnD5e guidelines somewhere if I stumble across it again I will share that information with everyone here but it only applies to things like Knowledge skills and other skills that are not something you just know how to do. Basically if you are not actually skilled in something of this nature the best you can do are the things that are considered Easy (DC 10).
No having or not having the Tools has nothing to do with ones Proficiency with those Tools (or more precisely the Skill those Tools represent) you are either proficient or you are not proficient simple as that and that is based off of whether you took the set of Tools as a proficiency during character creation or pick that proficiency up later on.

The Disadvantage comes into play when you are attempting to do something with "make shift" tools. Basically anything that is not the precise set of tools you need to do the job properly. Or simply put you are trying to use the Skill associated with a set of Tools without having those set of Tools. And since anyone can use a set of tools, if one has the proper set of tools they do not suffer Disadvantage when attempting to perform a task (aka use the Skill associated with the Tools) that those tools were designed to do.

Now again anyone can use the Tools with or without proficiency in them just those who are proficient with them (aka have the Skill associated with the Tools) are much better at it. Which is reflected by the proficient individual getting to use their proficiency bonus with those Tools (aka its associated Skill) and by the fact that if you are not proficient with the Tools (aka its associated Skill) then the best you can get with a check is a 10 as you simply do not have the know how to do perform whatever task you are trying to perform at a significantly high level nor can you perform the more difficult tasks someone proficient with the Tools (aka its associated Skill) can do.

To Re-Cap for Clarity

1) Proficiency Bonus is applied to any Skill (the Tools represent a Skill) that you are proficient in.

2) Performing a Skill (again the Tools represent a Skill) that requires a certain set of Tools (not every skill requires one to use Tools) without having those Tools in hand suffers Disadvantage but can still attempt the Skill (again Tools represent a Skill)

3) If you are attempting to use a Skill (again the Tools represent a Skill whether you have those Tools or not is irrelevant to attempting the Skill associated with those Tools) that you are not Proficient in that actually requires knowledge of or training in then the best result you can get on a 1d20 roll is a 10. You are still allowed to roll that 1d20 as this just means doing the Easy stuff is still Easy to do even for the non-proficient. So far these kind of Skills are limited to Knowledge based Skills and Tool based Skills
The problem and the confusion in my opinion comes in due to how the Skill is denoted within the Guidelines instead of defining a Skill that needs a certain set of Tools they defined a set of Tools that represents the Skill that is needed to use them. So there becomes a blurring between the actual Skill and the Tools that Skill needs to be performed properly.

For instance say you are a trained Carpenter (proficient in the Skill Carpentry) and you know how to use the many Tools associated with Carpentry (aka Carpenter's Tools). Now you are tasked with putting a complicated wooden box together if you have the appropriate Carpenter's Tools (Hammer, Hand Saw, Measuring Tape, Nails, etc...) doing so is fairly straight forward. However if you have inappropriate tools (Slightly Bent Nails, a Brick, pocket knife, etc...) you could still build the box just not as easily nor probably as well (aka with Disadvantage). Conversely if you are not a trained Carpenter but you have the proper Carpenter's Tools (Hammer, Hand Saw, Measuring Tape, Nails, etc...) while you do not suffer Disadvantage you still cannot do the job better than someone who is trained at being a Carpenter and if the task is something beyond the basics (more difficult than a 10) you will simply fail at trying to do it because you simply do not have the know how. Of course if you are not a trained Carpenter and you do not have the appropriate Carpenter's Tools not only can you not do it as well as a trained Carpenter but just like the trained Carpenter you are going to suffer Disadvantage.

I hope that explains it better

I totally understand your explanation. In which case I think it's probably clearer if we don't think of them as skills at all. 5e lists 18 Skills specifically, from Acrobatics to Survival. Best to leave the tool proficiencies as simply that. Otherwise we'd be trying to figure who's a trained carpenter and who isn't separately from who brought the tools and who didn't.

Unless you want to house rule a new list of craft skills. (And, as a return favour, I can make that list for you if you want).

I don't know -- I am kind of mixed on it -- I mean it is a Skill but its one that requires Tools to do without Disadvantage which implies you can perform the Skill without the Tools. Ultimately if everyone simply understands that when you have a Tool Proficiency you actually have the the Skill associated with those tools and that you can still use that Skill with or without Tools and that you can use the Tools with or without the Skill Proficiency we can leave it as is. Otherwise I would want to rewrite the guidelines to point this out clearly and concisely. If it were a bigger element of the game I might have done that but no one is focused on this so I see no need to go that far at this time. Maybe I will simply post a clarify on the Tool Proficiencies and what they mean and do not mean.

I may be wrong -- which wouldn't be the first time today -- but I believe DeJoker asked a while back for us to designate a caller for the party. Any volunteers? My leadership instincts didn't work out so well in the last game I tried to lead the group.

It would help greatly to have a central group spokes-person for the group as that helps facilitate group decisions like what speed to travel at for the day ;) and such --- further the player group spokes-person does not have to be the defacto in-character group leader