[OOC] General Discussion

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DeJokerInactive forever!

Mar 6, 2020 4:12 pm
Mar 6, 2020 4:12 pm
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Okay so LinguaSoft does not "translate" it just lets you know what is being said and communicates it to your brain which does the translation. As most people that I have talked to generally in some way translate a none native language into their native language they just do it extremely fast if they know the secondary language very well and once you learn to do this with one language it is a much easier to do with a third and fourth and so on.

Now your langsoft is like (as you described) a dictionary that lets you know in the language you understand what a group of words means and reminds you of this each time one of its words comes up -- further it only lets you listen to a small set of another language and does not allow you to speak it.

Okay so LangSoft is the datasoft version of LanguaSoft and my LingnoeSoft (adjusted it) would be the knowsoft version. Which means LingnoeSoft would allow one to know the entirety of a single language and again would only let you listen to it and not let you speak it. These points are good to keep in mind I agree -- as homogenization of a system is important

Now again the only problem I have with any or all of this is again --

1) We have in the Shadowrun Verse Voice to Text
2) We have in the Shadowrun Verse Text Language A to Text Language B
3) We have in the Shadowrun Verse Text to Voice

How come no one in this advance era can connect 1 to 2 to 3 and have a translation program that can be put into your CommLink that allows you to:

1) Listen to Language B through the CommLink in Language A
2) Speak Language A through the CommLink in Language B

--- just like we have today or perhaps better than we have today

What do I mean by what we have today -- well today there is a delay -- I say something in Language A it is then repeated in Language B and vice versa no illusions here that I do not know Language B but I can still communicate in it even if I do not know it. It is just a bit slower than communicating normally. Now slightly better would be this happens as I speak -- aka as I am talking in Language A into through my CommLink I am sending it out in Language B and vice-versa

Next I have a problem with any Language being given a status of 4 as in order for that to actually happen one has to think in that language otherwise the closest you will probably get is 3.5 or maybe 3.99 as you will never be native unless it is the language you process with in your mind

To me LinguaSoft's ratings (or just Language ratings in general) should instead be that of the Skill ratings of 1 - 6 which gets added to your Perception just like any other skill works. As this actually makes sense and then we would not be having this functionality debate as things would be homogeneous in functionality. The problem is LinguaSoft introduces what I would consider an anomaly in that it gives you Language Expertise which does not equate to a Skill at all like everything else does. To me this could be easily fixed by:

1) You are granted 1 Single Native Language (or 2 if you buy the Dual Native Language positive quality) -- the Native Language reflects what you grew up speaking and the one you know intimately well to the point that you naturally think in that language. Note this makes your Native Language or Languages very important and/or special

2) All other Languages (no matter their source) have Skill Ranks 1-6 and function like any other skill -- this would go for Knowledge's as well however because they are so narrow (or specialized or inconsequential) I would reduce the cost of acquiring a Knowledge/Language to 1 Karma instead of 3 this way you could have a Knowledge/Language 3 for the current cost of a Knowledge/Language and Knowledge/Language 6 for double that -- then you would simply combine that with your associated Attribute when using it Logic with Knowledges and Perception with Languages

This eliminates the confusion and homogenizes the system and makes it much simpler and straight forward for the players to grasp and comprehend as everything works the same way -- except that one special caveat being your Native Language(s) which you just know -- aka one's Native Language does not have a rank or rating it is just what it is -- a language you know so well you never have to make a roll to comprehend it -- and it is a special thing that cannot be duplicated.

Side Note - being able to auto-comprehend your native language is btw a crock of crap as there are many native speakers that would have to make rolls so-to-speak to comprehend some things spoken in their own native language but for game sake I will call that a wash no need to split hairs on that one just mentioning it because I feel their concept for a Native Language is kind of wacky as well but if its restricted to only 1 or at most 2 special cases no big deal but with the caveat that it cannot be duplicated -- it either is or it is not -- there is no try ;)
Last edited March 6, 2020 4:19 pm

BedzoneII

Mar 7, 2020 12:02 am
Mar 7, 2020 12:02 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
While my previous post describes how I would implement a Langsoft, this post will be more exploratory, as it is meant simply to bounce ideas with Dejoker. So if anyone wants a Langsoft, refer to my last post. For neatness, I have an edit to my last post which will further clarify how I'd implement it. The rest of this is simply a discusion of the pros and cons of 6e assumptions, and will have little bearing on play.

____

As to whether my langsoft allows a user to speak it, that depends on further mods to your commlink. For starters, a commlink can have a sim module (and it can be installed as headware, so that the interface isn't clunky - I remember your concern about aesthetics). This will allow the langsoft to be 'simulated', eg voice to text, or text to image. This way you could perhaps attempt to pronounce the words, or allow your text to speech to show you how to say the words. This contrasts with a linguasoft, where you are literally wired to be able to speak the language as if you know it. Because that's what skilljacks and skillwires do, they let you perform the skill as if you had it.

Another constraint is the constraint of the commlink. I read your concern about 'how come a commlink cannot do X' and subsequent proposal as an open discussion on what a commlink can actually do. I added my edit the the earlier post, and will state it again here. A commlink has basic functions, runs certain equipment, and runs only low level software. That what SR says it can do, this edition and previous ones. Trying to make commlinks do more isn't within the purview of commlinks. That's the reason why the game has so much more equipment beyond commlinks, to do the things basic commlinks cannot. I believe design-wise that's one of the most salient features of SR or cyberpunk settings. So all your suggestions can be done, it just can't be done in commlinks. Buy or install the right gear for it and it'll achieve what you want it to achieve. (Kinda like saying why can't a +1 staff do what a staff of the magi can do, etc)

As for native languages, a level 4 Linguasoft grants the ability to use the language like a native speaker. Conceptually it doesn't contradict our accepted real-world belief that all of us have only one native language. It's not trying to say you now have two (or more) native languages, only that you've acquired the ability to use language like a native speaker, ie. mechanically you never have to roll for it. The game also doesn't try to account for the diversity of ability amongst native speakers, of course some native speakers are weaker and some are stronger. Perhaps then, the stumbling block is that the word 'native' is the issue here. Then simply interpret that level 4 language ability simply means usage at the most proficient level there is, ie. never need to roll. And grant that this game chooses to label that as 'Native'. In this case it's a semantic label. Don't like the name, it can be changed, makes no difference.

On the proposal to create language ratings, I hear you. The idea is solidly found in previous editions of SR. Only in this edition did they try to streamline it by taking both Knowledge and Language skills away from having skill level ratings in the same way as the other skills. So 6e uses a simplified 4-level language rating ('basic', Specialist, Expert, Native). Again, these are just names, probably no need to dissect what does 'expert' mean, or 'native'. Mechanically they represent: allowed to roll, +2, +3, no roll needed, for dice pools. It is indeed a simplification from earlier editions. I believe they simplified knowledge and language skills because, in the earlier editions, when you have skill points, players tend to put them into actual skills than knowledge or langugage skills. So I understand the rationale for delinking them from the skill rating mechanic. It's up for debate whether this is cleaner or messier, more realistic or less realistic.

Finally, back to translation software, the main reason I think why there's no such thing as translation software is this: If you had the ability to wire yourself to understand a language, why would translation programmes still exist? If the answer is because a person may not be able afford the software (and hardware) to understand a language, then the answer is either: with no money he better learn it himself the hard way, or with a bit of money he can buy a simpler programme to understand parts of the language (a langsoft), or with a bit more money he can hire someone to translate a text for him, or he can befriend someone who knows the language to understand the text on his behalf.

deadpool_qcInactive for 1 months

Mar 7, 2020 12:21 am
Mar 7, 2020 12:21 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
just adding to the raw info, a new language is just 3 karma and a month (maybe less with a good teacher). Same for specialisation and expertise.

As for the languages rank (this part is my personal opinion...), I saw somebody with 1 rank as functional, sombody specialized as bilingual, and an expert as somebody with that can easily get a job as a translator, teacher or anything that would almost require a native level. Also an expert could pass for a native with a check...

DeJokerInactive forever!

Mar 7, 2020 1:07 am
Mar 7, 2020 1:07 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Okay I read your edit Bedzone which leads me to ask these series of questions....

1) Is it true that we have Voice to Text software?

2) Is it true that we have Text to Voice software?

3) Is it true that we have written Language A to written Language B software?

These are 3 assumptions I have come to understand and I just want to validate that those 3 items are true.

BedzoneII

Mar 7, 2020 3:37 am
Mar 7, 2020 3:37 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
deadpool_qc says:
just adding to the raw info, a new language is just 3 karma and a month (maybe less with a good teacher). Same for specialisation and expertise.

As for the languages rank (this part is my personal opinion...), I saw somebody with 1 rank as functional, sombody specialized as bilingual, and an expert as somebody with that can easily get a job as a translator, teacher or anything that would almost require a native level. Also an expert could pass for a native with a check...
OOC:
As a functional definition this works for me! :)

DeJokerInactive forever!

Mar 7, 2020 3:51 am
Mar 7, 2020 3:51 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Okay but you no answer my last set of questions??

BedzoneII

Mar 7, 2020 3:55 am
Mar 7, 2020 3:55 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
OOC:
lol I can't keep up updating my multiple games at the moment, here you go.
Back to Dejoker's questions.

Yes to 1 & 2.

For 3 it isn't stated. (We've been trying to rationalise it using real-world examples such as Google Translate.)

If you're intending to design features, functions or software for commlinks, let me offer some guidelines. Here are the relevant excerpts:
[ +- ] Commlinks
TheVagrant asked in an earlier scenario whether his commlink could project sound and a hologram. From the commlink description, the answer is yes. However, a Trid Projector is one of the items you can buy to hook up to a commlink. This piece of equipment seems redundant if every commlink already has one. I infer from this that the micro-trid projector in a commlink is significantly smaller, weaker, etc than an actual trid projector. Same goes for the internal GPS guidance systems vs a mapsoft you can buy. Same goes for AR use, you can browse, but you cannot use interactive software (like take Matrix actions). Same for tag scanning, it can detect and read an RFID tag scanner, but cannot hack or access it. Same goes for speech-to-text-to-speech, it'll playback whatever was said in words, but that's it.

So I would consider all the features of a commlink as having only basic functionalities. If you want a dedicated functionality, you have to invest in proper gear. So while a commlink allows you to browse AR, to interact with the AR requires you to own AR gloves or trodes, etc. Software is the same, simple software exists in commlinks, bigger or more complex ones require special gear. Mechanically, I'd rule that the features, functions and software in commlinks produce no, or very little, roll-changing effect, ie. doesn't modify dice rolls (or at most +1), doesn't contain levels (or at most level 1), etc. That seems consistent with the rules for datasofts, mapsofts and shopsofts.

This should help calibrate your expectations if you're attempting to create new designs.

DeJokerInactive forever!

Mar 7, 2020 6:46 am
Mar 7, 2020 6:46 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Okay this is my last installment on this -- IMO the mechanics of what is just sux but then it is what it is -- as such its one of those areas where I say okay its just a lose-lose scenario and let it go and just accept that this is the way it is and the basic solution is to waste Karma on learning languages because in Shadowrun they are very important but the mechanics are horrible in dealing with it and the flavor for it is just not clear so here ya go hope this helps the flavor in some way ---
Quote:
By 2047 technical advances in voice recognition, linguasofts, and speech-to-text-to-speech algorithms made it possible to write a business report verbally in English, have it transcribed into German and read back aloud in Japanese
So if one looks at this closely and assuming its accurate they actually do have translation software for it says : You can take the spoken language A (Speech) - have it translate to write in Language B - then have it translate from Language B to directly spoken in Language C

Thus these are doing translations as part of doing the function -- so when writing it in Language B from spoken Language A is more than just Speech-Text its Speech to TranslatedText to TranslatedSpeech

The best explanation why using the above is not prolific is perhaps as follows:
Quote:
Learn to speak the local language from a native. If you learn it from a chip or rely on a linguasoft, the natives will get the message that you don't care enough to learn the language properly. If you speak the local language unassisted by technology, you send the message that you are willing to spend the necessary time to learn about the local culture. You are willing to spend the time to learn how to speak to them. That's a powerful message. Learn how the locals speak. Do they speak loudly? Softly? Using direct eye contact? Emulate the locals rather than mimicking them, and don't attempt to do it perfectly. You probably can't, and it's better to acknowledge the fact that you are an outsider who respects their culture than to embarrass yourself and them by performing badly. If you mess up, you appear to mock their traditions.
Coupled with this ----
Quote:
In a game where the introduction of a language (Or'zet) sets off a whole set of complications and developments in the world, I disagree that language is an insignificant thing in Shadowrun. Language - and language barriers - in the Shadowrun world are perhaps the greatest yet most subtle controlling factor in the game world. Proper speaking of Japanese is used as a judgement/controlling factor by Shiawase, Renraku, and MCT - not as many 'Japanacorps' as there used to be, granted, but three out of ten is still disproportionate in favor of Japan. Aztlan and Aztechnology use Aztlaner Spanish vs. Mexican Spanish as a controlling language; speaking the latter is actually illegal within the nation's borders.

Even in the 5e rules, the extent of your mastery of a language was the extent of your social interaction - as you could only add as many dice from your Social skill to a test as you had in the language you are interacting with. This made language mastery a critical resource indeed
In short what I got from these is -- yes you could have a software program in your commlink that allowed you to speak in Language A and transmit that to someone in Language B BUT this would be noticed even more so than if you used a LinguaSoft because apparently even LinguaSoft does not grant you the actual ability to speak it like a true native -- yes you no longer have to make rolls but -- folks can or at least have a chance to tell that you did not learn the language for real but are using some kind LinguaSoft to allow you to speak the language. And the Commlink translation program would be an automatic they notice that kind of shyt.

The rest of my thoughts on this are mostly pointless because again it is what is apparently and the only real solution that I see is using at least 6 Karma per language (maybe 9 Karma for some) and with well over 6,500 languages becoming a master linguist is no longer an option for simply just getting by is going to be the order of the day.

Hope that info I dug up helps with flavor
Last edited March 7, 2020 6:54 am

BedzoneII

Mar 7, 2020 10:18 am
Mar 7, 2020 10:18 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
DeJoker says:
Quote:
By 2047 technical advances in voice recognition, linguasofts, and speech-to-text-to-speech algorithms made it possible to write a business report verbally in English, have it transcribed into German and read back aloud in Japanese
So if one looks at this closely and assuming its accurate they actually do have translation software for it says : You can take the spoken language A (Speech) - have it translate to write in Language B - then have it translate from Language B to directly spoken in Language C. Thus these are doing translations as part of doing the function -- so when writing it in Language B from spoken Language A is more than just Speech-Text its Speech to TranslatedText to TranslatedSpeech
I totally agree you can get from Language A to B to C, but reread the part I highlighted in bold. To do so requires 1. voice recognition, 2. linguasofts, and 3. speech-to-text-to-speech algorithms. So once again, I wouldn't be so quick to conclude they have translation software, but what I can affirmatively conclude is that going from Language A (spoken) to Language B (written) to Language C (spoken) requires all three technical advances combined together. Essentially you can't run away from linguasofts. So as I suggested, it makes things clearer if we don't frame the issue as a translation issue, but a language proficiency issue.

DeJokerInactive forever!

Mar 7, 2020 6:51 pm
Mar 7, 2020 6:51 pm
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Like I said its a whatever in my book now -- something I think is wrong but not something that appears anything can be done about on my end -- my conclusion from all of this is simply if I want to address the language issue for my character (or pretty much any character since using LinguaSoft seems to be frowned on by the native speakers) is to spend the excessive required Karma to learn it to Expertise 2 or 3 --- Note I would like to point out that Knowledges Skills which are semi-synonymous with Language Skills can be fully acquired for 3 Karma while a Language skill to fully acquire costs 9 Karma -- that just does not seem right as they both basically represent a form of Knowledge and this is what I mean by the excessive required Karma to learn a Language
Last edited March 7, 2020 6:53 pm

BedzoneII

Mar 8, 2020 10:57 am
Mar 8, 2020 10:57 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
If your real concern is how native speakers might react, the only true solution is still for a character to learn the language the proper way. No amount of inventing new rules for langsofts and use of commlinks will help. And even then you can't learn to be a native. In fact the only way to have a native-like level language is a linguasoft, that's spot on in terms of cyberpunk flavour, where technology enables a user to surpass natural human limitations. If your real concern is how to hypothetically build a character who knows tons of languages, the skilljack route is still the cleverest route, a cyber whiz with tons of language software at his disposal. That's a pretty cool character concept right there. If your real concern is how to build a character who learns tons of languages by without sacrificing essence, then yeah, gotta go the Karma points way, and I added an SR5 Linguist quality to the house rules, which is a great quality for such a character concept.

Your are right in saying Knowledge and Language skills are only semi-synonymous, but comparing 3 karma vs 9 karma costs is inaccurate. The 3 Karma Knowledge skill buys you the permission to roll, same as the 3 Karma Language skill. So that's exactly equivalent. the 9 Karma Language skill further buys a 3 dice modifier. That's par for the course, in fact far cheaper than buying 5x new rank Karma for an active skill increase which adds a 1 die increase.

Having said that, it's merely an assumption and a point of view that native speakers frown on those who use technology to communicate. I think it's nothing good roleplaying can't solve! :)

Since it looks like we're winding up this discussion, two final things on this topic. I don't think the rules are wrong, different game systems constrain different aspects, and choose what to create and what to leave out. Secondly, and more relevantly, if anyone wants me to add my proposed Langsoft rules to the house rules, let me know!

TheVagrantInactive forever!

Mar 9, 2020 7:38 pm
Mar 9, 2020 7:38 pm
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Something as been bothering me when the opposed roll end up with no net hit on either side.

On p35 in the paragraph about opposed test it mentions this :
[ +- ] opposed test
I think you've been ruling in favor a defense (as it was in earlier version i think) while the book suggest to favor the "aggressor" in a tie. Are we using the book guideline for ties or are we houseruling them?
Last edited March 9, 2020 7:39 pm

BedzoneII

Mar 10, 2020 3:13 am
Mar 10, 2020 3:13 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
Good point. The problem is the phrase, 'thought this may change if net hits are required to make a given effect'. Many tests throughout the rules do suggest what 1 (net) hit looks like, or 3 hits, 5 hits, etc. So 0 net hits, even if it favours the aggressor, still reveals less information than 1 net hit, which may mean that it reveals no information at all.

One area though for which it does have a clear impact is combat. A 0 net hit attack is still a success, not a failure, and should allow a subsequent damage roll. To the best of my memory I think I missed out one instance of that in Eunbyeol's combat. Sorry @falconloft, I'll let you retcon hurting the sleazebag!

TheVagrantInactive forever!

Mar 10, 2020 3:34 am
Mar 10, 2020 3:34 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
I was mainly thinking of some of the low dice influence attempt from Hotaru and Eunbyeol i think, like the current situation with the passengers which ended up being 1 hit vs 1 hit ( Not that the situation is very relevant since nothing was penalysed yet on one of those tie)

BedzoneII

Mar 10, 2020 10:51 am
Mar 10, 2020 10:51 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
In those cases, since ties favour the 'initiator', it means the roll didn't fail, as technically the roll 'succeeded'. However, at 0 net hits, there is not much value to the persuasion nor intimidation. Strange I know, but at least with 1 net hit I can describe the target's response as 'he paused and gave it some thought', or 'for a moment he looked nervous'. But with 0 hits it's most accurate to say that the target had no response to the persuasion / intimidation attempt. And at negative hits the target's rejects, dismisses, gets angry, etc at the attempt.

deadpool_qcInactive for 1 months

Mar 11, 2020 1:27 am
Mar 11, 2020 1:27 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
deadpool_qc sent a note to BedzoneII

TheVagrantInactive forever!

Mar 11, 2020 1:36 am
Mar 11, 2020 1:36 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
BedzoneII says:
In those cases, since ties favour the 'initiator', it means the roll didn't fail, as technically the roll 'succeeded'. However, at 0 net hits, there is not much value to the persuasion nor intimidation. Strange I know, but at least with 1 net hit I can describe the target's response as 'he paused and gave it some thought', or 'for a moment he looked nervous'. But with 0 hits it's most accurate to say that the target had no response to the persuasion / intimidation attempt. And at negative hits the target's rejects, dismisses, gets angry, etc at the attempt.
Cool, thanks for explaining that.

BedzoneII

Mar 11, 2020 12:30 pm
Mar 11, 2020 12:30 pm
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
BedzoneII sent a note to deadpool_qc

TheVagrantInactive forever!

Mar 13, 2020 2:57 am
Mar 13, 2020 2:57 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
OOC:
Best discussion I found on the rules (and contradictions) of the Command drone action in SR6

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30155.0;prev_next=prev#new
Last edited March 13, 2020 2:57 am

BedzoneII

Mar 13, 2020 4:09 am
Mar 13, 2020 4:09 am
Re: [OOC] General Discussion
I read that too some time back, and others, to try to resolve the contradictions. My own personal attempt to rationalise it revolves around what kind of action the drone is taking, but that would be a house rule and isn't RAW. So commanding to attack will be Major, no matter what, because Attack is always a major action. Commanding to move will be Minor, because Move is a minor action, and so on.
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