New School and Old School D&D

I miss exactly nothing about the "old days" of gaming -- the 80s, for me. There are so many games to play now, and it's easier than ever to find people to play them with, in a variety of formats. Perhaps interestingly, I have a real love for OSR games, but only for those that bring new and modern ideas to the table, mixed with the vibes of the older games -- dumping the clunky rules and the problematic content. I don't play 5e, but it's pretty clearly a fabulous version of the game, and not hard at all to bend into a dungeon crawler. I think the real problem here is that Tomb of Horrors was a terrible module. =]

(I kid. What I really mean is, "It's not for me.")

To be honest, if you read the history of the game itself, Tomb of Horrors was made by Gygax to kill player characters - simply put. If you can outsmart Gary Gygax, good luck.

Yeah, I remember reading it, and am aware of Gygax's reputation for that stuff. I try to be a fan of the PCs no matter what game I play, so... ToH just isn't for me. :)

For me, this is the key point. Critical Role has made a tremendous impact on 5e -- for better and for worse. It has made the game more mainstream but, paradoxically, has (I believe) frightened some players off because they believe that's how it should be played and they don't feel up to it.

Ever since 3rd grade in the early 1980s, I've played DnD in one form or another (I'm including MPathfnder and Gurps in this) and hands down, the most fun version is 5e. It allows you to get down to the story which is 'doing cool things with cool characters.'

Tomb of Horrors is and was and always will be a terrible module. It was designed for a tournament played at a convention. I can't think of anything worse than playing DnD in a competitive environment, like I'd rather get another root canal.

Now if you compared B2 then to B2 now, then you're talking.

Interestingly, I did just read recently in the foreword of Goodman Games' big "Into the Borderlands" tome that *The Temple of Elemental Evil* went way sideways when Gygax originally ran it. An evil PC torpedoed a bunch of stuff and purposefully released the big bad into the wild or some such.

Point being, Gary may have had some problematic players Tomb of Horrors was aimed at. =]

As far as i can tell from the lore around ToH, it was literally designed as Gygax' revenge module against a specific friend of his that solo-trashed ToEE, and basically circumvented Gygax carefully planned puzzles and riddles in ToEE. So he made ToH to be immune to such bashing and just outright kill PCs who try.

Ergo, it may not be the best module for gauging players then vs players now.

One also has to take into account though the changes that happened to the game designers, not just players, over time. Hickman and Weiss shifted campaign and dungeon design from more or less aimless adventuring with some Gygaxian naturalism explanation tacked on to a more story/narrative focused design. That progression has continued more or less until today, where (for many but not all, but i think definitely the WotC design teams) the story is seen as the purpose and the game is more or less a medium. Critical Role embodies that paradigm the most.

Just my 2 cents.

No need for Lore when you have Wikipedia, or like a copy of the original module (like I do)
-emphasis mine.

If you want a hot take I have one for you. I hate Critical Role. It is not DnD it is entertainment that is semi-scripted performed by improv and voice actors. It's not at all like what real DnD is.

I don't disagree. I watched it for a little while but lost interest quickly. It is, unfortunately, a factor some, maybe many, people's expectations of what roleplaying is now, however. And that is apparent from WotC's published adventure modules for 5e and their integration of CR into their publications and platforms.

How far have they gone into scripting? Are the players given knowledge into what will occur? Admittedly, I'm only about 10 episodes into the second campaign, but so far it seems pretty standard DnD to me.

Maybe it's one of those things where "real DnD" is up to those playing. They certainly have a high quality of roleplay due to experience in acting, writing, improv, etc. They're far better roleplayers than I am.

Even if it's not what people are used to, their role in creating a golden age for DnD (and likely other RPGs) can't be understated. TTRPGs are going mainstream in a way I've never seen before, and that's good news for everyone in the hobby.

Honestly, it's not that hot a take. I don't hate Critical Role (CR), but I do agree it feels more like entertainment than gaming. For example, I wouldn't turn to CR to have a greater depth of "how to game", but that collection of actors has really tapped into something. The soon-to-be-released animated series that was Kickstarted really underscores that entertainment factor, but it's an element that has maybe been missing from the hobby for a long time. I've come to really enjoy the streamlined efficiency of older game systems, but kind of find them lacking in a lot of ways. I love Pathfinder 2e's experience system, but I also love the simplicity of OSR products. The hobby really has an embarrassment of riches these days.

Critical Role is what it is. I find their style cringey, but thats my tastes. Some people i know love it. TBH, i wouldnt watch a bunch of people I dont know playing hardcore D&D or anything else either, unless I was playing with them. It would be dull, until the rules-lawyers got into it with DM and the table got flipped. Then it would be funny.

But what do you mean by embarrassment of riches? I'm not familiar with that phrase.

I hear Gygax University is offering an online course in Gaming Theory- is this the discussion forum?

It is! GMs, take the door on the left. Players, go right! And beware the pit traps, wandering monsters, teleportation runes, flooding corridors, slashing scythes, jabbing spears, poisoned darts, mimics, rot grubs, rust monsters, piercers, and gelatinous cubes you'll encounter on the way to your desk...

Is all you can throw at me! Gesh.

Well... that's all before the lesson even begins!

an embarrassment of riches - more options or resources than one knows what to do with

TTRPGs have seen tremendous growth over the last four decades. The fact that we can even seriously have a discussion like "New vs. Old" is really a testament to how many gaming choices we have available, as well as the astounding growth f the hobby. And there's more being created all the time!

I'm all for discussing system preferences, as long as it's respectful. There are more games out there than I think I could ever play, but I'm always open to hearing people discuss what they like and why.

Golden Age of RPGs, let there be no doubt at all.