Delete retired games

Allow GMs to delete retired games. I think this would basically do what retire used to do.

Yes!

No! Or at least let the players have an input in it. I'd hate to see a GM delete a game and all posts in it without me at least having a chance to save them. Not to mention that it might lend itself to users erasing unpleasant history with nefarious purposes.

Maybe it will be fine if you (the GM) are the only one in the game, so it's either a solo game or other player already sort of declared they aren't interested in keeping access. Though GMs still can kick players, so it doesn't really solve it...

Agreed. If the GM does not want the game on their list, let them leave. Deleting out from under the players is a big no from me.

GMs can't leave games though. Maybe just a mechanic that GMs can leave a game and if nobody is left in a game, it is deleted. Although that could still mean GMs get to kick out their players and delete the game that way. But GMs can already kick out players and make them unable to see the game anymore

I am not sure about the actual value of deleting games (aside from reducing clutter on the page), I don't think it would have that big of an impact on the database size (unless done in the thousands).

Seems like the solution is to allow GMs to leave games. Then they would not need to delete, or kick the players or anything. Possibly we would need to first empower someone else to be in charge of the game, but that is a thing we can do.

Maybe private games with no players (yeah, I know the last one can't currently leave, but that could be fixed) can be garbage collected.

Pretty sure GMs can already fully delete the content of a game relatively easily using the ACP. They just can't delete the "shell".

So given the comments so far, maybe a question we need to discuss is "Should GMs be able to delete all content in a game?" and "Should we enable GMs to be able to leave games or delete the shell?"

I sort of feel like that's the GM's prerogative, but I agree it would suck if a GM did that to their players without giving them a heads up.

Maybe if it isn't already, deleting should be "logged" or put in "recycle" for a period before it is fully deleted, so if it's done by accident or players complain, or if it's done nefariously then it can be looked into and/or reversed by Keleth or mods?

I agree, GMs should probably be able to leave a game if they want.

I think GMs being able to leave would be best. And then maybe empty games get deleted automatically, or put on a to-be-deleted list

Allowing the GM to leave fixes the original problem of them wanting to get the game off their list, but does not affect the players.

Presumably this game was dead already, so leaving it headless is not a big deal. If the players later want to pick it up, they could ask for one of them to be promoted to GM (or have a new GM join), and it would be pretty clear from the lack of GM that this was appropriate. (Maybe the exiting GM can leave a note to the admins about their wishes for the game. Some might object to having someone else take over (and take credit for) their hard work. A DNR is better than forcing them to scorch the earth.)

Is this a concern? Anyone actually looking at the hard work and not just the Games Details page would immediately see who actually made the GM posts.

True. Probably not a big deal or a common occurrence.

Some still might not want others playing with their toys. And providing a way to accept that makes us more accepting. Knowing that our wishes will be respected makes it easier to put in the effort.

I see the point.

It does mean, though, that a GM abandoning a game while players might want to continue it always requires them to ask for GM rights rather than that being an automatic process.

All you need to do to prevent people from complaining about something like that is a warning, then they know it could happen and if they don't want that to happen they stay in the game.
"If you leave [game name] then you can no longer decide what happens inside of the game Including others becoming the GM."

'Abandoning' a game, and not being available to ask for permission is a slightly different situation, though.
I don't think this should be automatic, anyway. It is not too much to ask for a little bit of peer-review. The mods can take a look, and see the situation, and then make it happen.

How common are such things? Do we really need fancy automated (and unfeeling) systems.

This will sound rude, but that is precisely the attitude that alienates people and makes them hesitant to invest in a site. Giving people a polite way to say "please don't keep playing this without me", does not seem like too much to ask.

What if the situation is "this material is copyright, don't use it till it is completed" and there are legal ramifications? Why not just ask?

Considering it took months for it to happen when I needed GM right transfers, theres absolutely an argument to be made for it to be automated.

And what purpose would mod review have? Will mods go through the entire game and decide whether that player has earned the right to GM it? No, they'll just see the request and grant it because if the original GM is no longer around, there is no reason not to.

I bow to your experience, both as a mod and as someone who went through this.

It does to me. Does a player who doesn't want to play anymore have a right to tell the GM that the game has to end now and can no longer continue? Games are shared. If other people want to continue, that's their right

maybe it's just that I don't see a reason that someone especially a GM would leave a game if they cared about the contents of it, after all the only way for them to get back into that game would be for another player to become GM and invite them in, which means someone else Has to become GM for them to get back into the game.
If they don't want someone else to become a GM and also don't want to get back into the game that sounds to me like they're trying to ruin other peoples fun.

We are getting sidetracked with this.

This is about getting games of the GM's list, and this talk about what happens to the game afterwards is not part of that. Adding new automated systems to take over GMship is not part of that.

Allowing GMs to leave fixes the problem without disrupting the players, the rest can be worked out once that is in place.