Why do people find horror games fun?

I see this question pop up from time to time in my SotDL community, and I have my own answers to why I enjoy them, but I'm really curious to hear what other people say.

This question is usually asked from the perspective of someone coming from D&D or Pathfinder, where the primary premise is heroic adventure, killing monsters, and gaining loot/levels. Sometimes, someone from this genre will stumble into a game that's primarily horror, give it a shot, and then be frustrated that their PC just can't kill everything they fight. And then they come asking something like this (which I saw just yesterday):

"I guess what I ultimately don't get, rules and procedures aside, is how a game where you're expected to mostly hide or run away is fun. Like, you don't get loot from running away. I don't see why you should level up just because you hid or ran away from everything long enough to reach town, etc."

So, I'm bringing this same question to you:

What makes a horror game - a game where the expectation is that you can't kill what you see, but rather you have to do whatever you can to survive - a fun experience for you? Or if it's not a fun experience for you, why do you think some people would find it fun?

Well the problem I see with that quote is what they think is important isn't important to me lol. Horror games usually don't have levels or loot as that is not what the focus is on. If that is what a player thinks is important than of course they will be disappointed. It's like watching a horror movie for laughs. What a horror game brings is hopefully a good story and something that makes you feel like you can't just solve every problem with smashing it with an axe.

I would suggest there is no answer that will satisfy anyone who asks that.

They said it themselves -- "what I ultimately don't get."

Why do some people like Fatal Frame more than Call of Duty or Fortnite?

Why do some people like Paranormal Activity more than the Justice League movie?

I'd also point out they have a flawed understanding of the conceot of "experience."

People who ask questions like this tend to have their own well-defined idea on what's "fun," and if something isn't that, then it isn't fun. And trying to explain why you think something is fun to someone who has already made up their mind... well, not to be crass but it's like trying to explain why you like BDSM to someone who thinks Missionary is the best thing ever.

But, let's pretend for a moment the question was being asked in good faith and they actually wanted a real answer...

Horror games tend to put more focus on the other pillars (in D&D terms). They also reward, nay, demand player creativity. You can't Eldritch Blast or Meteor Swarm or Great Weapon Master your way out of a situation... now what? Also... atmosphere. Anecdotal, but I have never been drawn in to someone setting the scene for D&D or, say, Marvel Superheroes. But I've seen some amazing settings in World of Darkness and Kult.

That's an interesting question, especially because of the assumptions in the quote you shared.

The difference, I would say is in the approach itself. Looking at that quote, the player is clearly approaching it from a gaming side. You want to overcome challenges, earn rewards and level up. That's so far from what I rp for. Sure, occasionally getting better at something is nice, but if I never level up again in my entire future of rping, that won't have all that much of an impact on my enjoyment at all.

I'm in it for stories. Now, the stories I mostly enjoy aren't the big heroics of D&D or the crushing despair of horror (though the latter can be super fun - much more than big D&D battles). I'm mostly in it for the CW style social drama (probably much to the annoyance of the people playing with me). I think the shift in mindset that would need to happen for the question-asker to get the appeal would be to not view it as a game, necessarily, where you win and get rewarded, but as more of a novel you get to shape as you read it. Have you ever watched a horror movie and were frustrated with the decisions the main characters made? Play a horror RPG where you get that experience, but you also get to make the decisions yourself.
The assumptions baked into the question just don't apply. If those are what you're looking for, you won't enjoy a horror game. If you enjoy a horror game, you have different things you're looking for.

I would be much more inclined to ask the opposite question. What's fun about adventuring and fighting big battles? It's just not something that appeals to me, really. Even in the big Pathfinder games with epic quests I joined, all I really cared for were inter-character interactions, the drama of personal disagreements and the forming relationships. None of the base assumptions made in that quote even factor into my reasons for playing. At best, they're a small bonus.


But moving away from the quoted question and just to the question in the title itself. What's fun about horror? For me, I love playing average, normal people. I love interacting with other characters (PCs and NPCs) and horror usually offers a high-stakes situation that allows for character dynamics to shine.
There's also just the satisfaction of really feeling something, like when some body horror hits or you just feel along with your character's dread at some situation. I think horror is just fun as a genre. I love horror movies as well, so why wouldn't I like horror RPGs?

I should probably stop rambling now, but hopefully, I made a point somewhere in there.

Side note: I think the first three responders to this post would be very telling in and of itself. Lol

Nothing quite as detailed as the others.

I want my characters to die in some over the top, wild and wonderful way.

And there have been a few! And a few more before long, no doubt!

I shared this thread with the person in question, and they had some follow up observations I'd like to share (with permission):

Nezz says that horror games don't usually have levels and loot, and yet SotDL specifically has levels (although not much loot compared to games like PF or D&D).

So what frustrates our initial questioner is that SotDL and many other horror games don't have specific mechanics for running away or hiding or other things that he expects a horror game to have. When I inquired as to what mechanics should be present in a horror game, he said:

"The biggest one is that if running and hiding are expected, then there should be explicit mechanics/procedures for how to avoid a fight or run away from a fight. Or rules on laying traps. Or just fewer rules on how to engage in combat if the game isn't supposed to be about engaging in combat. Another mechanic I think a lot of horror and OSR games are missing is an in-game way to hint at players that an enemy is not meant to be fought. Like, yes, the GM can do that narratively, but it would be nice to make it explicit, or at least have some GM advice about 'here is how to communicate with your players about that'."

So my follow-up question would be:

Does a horror game have to have specific mechanics and rules to allow players to avoid horrific situations? And if not, what makes it a horror game if it doesn't have these mechanics?

It's a horror game BECAUSE it doesn't have an "escape" button. It's a horror game BECAUSE you don't know what that creature is capable of. I think you have a flawed premise, that these need to be represented in the mechanics.

(Also, despite what the box says, I don't think SotDL is a horror game. It has macabre elements, but at its core it is a heroic dark-fantasy game.)

Theming.

You actually can run a horror game in D&D, even if D&D isn't by its nature horror. You don't need specific mechanics to be horror.

As for rules... most games have rules for things like running and hiding. Choosing to avoid a fight is primarily a narrative thing though. Key word is "choosing." It's a decidion your character makes, nothing more or less.

And most games have rules for traps and whatnot... although that's part of the combat rules. And games tend to have a disproportionate percent of their rules focused on combat, because combat tends to be the crunchiest aspect of any game.

The idea that there should be mechanics to support an enemy not being able to be fought is laughable. Figure it out yourself, the GM isn't always going to hold your hand. All your clues will be -- and should be -- narrative. Sorry the game doesn't give you a monster's level when you move your mouse over it.

Hey, what's D&D's mechanic that lets your level 2 Bard know he shouldn't fight the ancient blue dragon? What mechanic is that?

Very good point.

SotDL is more D&D Ravenloft and less World of Darkness or CoC.

For me, horror games are fun because horror games tend to be investigation-driven. I love mystery more than horror, but in the RP scene, the two often go hand in hand. But even considering mystery and horror as separate genres, I think I like horror–mystery hybrids more than the odd games that don't pair the two because they just really hit that sweet Venn diagram spot for me.

More specifically, I like a game where the "big bad" isn't outright known at first. I like the slow burn of investigating the brutal killer or the psycho slasher or the terrible cult. I love the thrill of being one of only a few people who have started uncovering dark mysteries that are meant to be hidden (by the cult/the government/the conspiracy/etc.). I relish the high vulnerability of most horror protagonists and having to come up with more creative solutions to stop the big bad (finding the lost ritual, exposing the conspiracy to the press, etc.).

In short, I think I love horror (specifically investigative horror) for the way those games tend to marry vulnerability, gnosis, and moral uncertainty. These are games that live in the liminal space of ambiguity, not the moral certitude of D&D and other such games. Sometimes I want the black-vs.-white power fantasy fantasy affords. But sometimes I want things to be murky and fragile.

To your friend's point about needing mechanics to run away or hide, a lot of horror games do have those. Lots of flavors of Gumshoe have a Fleeing stat, for instance! And in Cthulhu Dark, it's codified in the rules: If you fight the monster you will die. So the better horror games do tend to incorporate those core activities.

You're not alone in that thought. While I personally disagree and think SotDL is a horror game, I know plenty of people who love that game and agree with you.

I do find that system easy to convert into a traditional fantasy adventure game (and have done so!), but I'm also easily able to dive into the horror - whereas I had a difficult time doing that with Pathfinder or 5e D&D (though I have played in one particularly good game of horror with AD&D 2e).

I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions. The diversity of opinions (even if they are different from my own) is exactly what I was seeking.

I may be away from technology for a few days, so I may not be able to contribute. But I hope to come back to this thread in a few days and see even more opinions!

Thank you!

I wonder if your premise should be examined. I immediately thought of the classic video game Doom. Clearly horror, but full of fighting and loot/levels. So is it the flank-and-spank D&D-esque mentality from which the questions of the place of horror in TTRPGs arise? You can have a MMO type gameplay (dungeon grind), but as mentioned earlier, it is the tone and the stakes that make it horror. Similarly, you could run Call of Cthulhu with bland dispassion, and with investigators that the players aren't invested in (invested in their personal stories), and the horror would fall off.

For me, the horror elements come from the stakes. You have to want to succeed, to care about the stakes, to care whether or not you fail, and the obstacles/ruleset is what makes that uncertain.

Darkest Dungeon and it's PnP versions heart and spire also are horror games that don't necessarily involve running away.

I think the best way to categorize horror is in two broad categories. Tough but fair, Ala Doom, Dark Souls, Call of Cthulhu, Heart and Spire. And tough but unfair, SotDL I'm looking at you.

Now there are various interpretations of this. But my decades of experience with Call of Cthulhu has taught me that no problem is too great that player cohesion and overwhelming firepower can't solve it. For instance in our home group we have had 1 PC death in the last 5 years and our characters themselves have become the Worst guys.

A lot of this boils down to how we solve the mystery. The group is assumed to be worse than the bad guys. When kidnapping, extortion, theft, treason, and even murder are considered acceptable ways of dealing with cultists a great deal of possibilities open. Every one of us also commits to a role from the inception rather than randomly generating a person we fill specific niches that one would find in a horror movie. Et AL. Mr Money Bags, Soldier of Fortune, Sneaky Pete, the Street Magician, and Jim the handy man. We don't bother with having a Medic because medics are heroes and heroes get other people killed. Operative solution being "Have you tried out eviling it?"

I don't think SotDL is a horror game, but grim dark fantasy. In the end it is still about leveling up and trying to defeat evil by force. To me, horror is a question of empowerment. In any game where you get stronger (more hp, stronger spells, more damage) than that is empowerment and the opposite of horror. True horror games are where you are more in danger the more investigation you do, the more knowledge you gain, the more experience you get. CoC is dangerous because except for skills, you only ever get weaker over time.

I think the flaw is in this person's premise that horror involves "avoiding" and "running away." I think their only experience with horror media comes from video games like Amnesia or something. No one who has played a game like CoC would describe the main actions of the game as avoidance or fleeing. It sounds like this person wants to "win" or "survive" which isn't what horror games are about for me. What horror games are about is the story and the experience. I couldn't care less whether my character survives in the end, it is only important that there was a cool story and if I enjoyed the experience. Or as KCC put it, how cool did my character die? There is something enjoyable about satisfying your curiosity when you know the answer could kill you.

I think that, on a base level, many people love to be scared, so long as they know that it's all in good fun. Whether a scary movie, a thrill ride, or an RPG, it's fun to have a good scare. Most of us would freeze in panic or flee in abject terror if we encountered a real vampire, but in the game, we can do what we wouldn't be able to do in real life. And no matter how bleak it gets, you can savor the little victories. In Call of Cthulhu you enter the game knowing that humanity has already lost; it becomes a matter of how long you can stave off the inevitable. And those little victories give you a sense of pride. Tomorrow, the world may fall to the Old Ones, but at least for today, you've made a difference. And if you got a little scare while doing it, so much the better.

A quote from one of my favorite movies, Terror in the Aisles: "As you watch the screen, your heart begins to beat faster. There's a fluttering in the pit of your stomach. Your throat is dry. Your palms damp. Suddenly, a chill runs down your spine. You clutch the person next to you. You tell yourself, "lt's only a movie."

lt's only a movie.

But sooner or later, you must leave the theater and go home.

Perhaps alone."

The same applies. It's only a game. But sooner or later, it's time to go home. Perhaps alone.

Pleasant dreams...

Not a ton to add here that hasn't been covered, but a couple of thoughts:

There are a lot of different kinds of horror in RPGs, from the 'cozy' horror of Vaesen, to the pulp horror that pervades certain CoC games, to the nihilism and bleakness of Delta Green, to the tropey horror of something like Monster of the Week, to the unraveling terror of Kult, to the GM in any game asking for constant perception checks... I think there's a lot going on in the genre, if we can even call it that. Which happens to be, hands down, one of my favorites.

Lots of games have horror elements, and I think games like Mork Borg and SotDL fit the bill pretty tidily here, and I do think there's something different going on when you can shoot, chop, or blast your terrifying foe in the face and win. These games lack the limits on agency and control that the true horror RPGs have -- like Nezz is saying. And while you can use any system you want to power your horror games...
...I think some games are great at it, and some, like many flavors of D&D, are really bad at it. The existence of tieflings and loads of other races can dull the experience of encountering "the other" in the game; infravision and dark vision can completely neuter what otherwise might be a tense and terrifing scene; having 70 hp can make it so that you just aren't threatened by monster claws; being able to cast spells to create light, read minds, fly, teleport and spider-climb can completely blunt the horror in situations that might otherwise be really scary.

Anyway. I kind of operate in three modes -- games without horror elements, games that drip with horror elements at times but are not solely about those things, and straight-up I can't believe my players are enjoying this horror games where some truly awful stuff can happen. I think the middle area is where I spend most of my time, but I greatly enjoy the other ends of my own personal spectrum as well...

Hey, I never said D&D excelled at it... just that it was a possibility. 🤣

I've seen horror games run in a variety of systems not intentionally designed with horror in mind. But I stand by my statement that you don't need a/ny particular mechanic/s to qualify as horror.

The first horror game I ever ran was a modified version of Pathfinder set in the modern day. It worked, but only because we never actually entered combat, just used skill checks. I do think that D&D-like combat actively works against a horror theme