High Level Play

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Oct 8, 2023 4:29 am
BECMI is just 80s D&D, the whole Basic-Expert-Companion-Master-Immortal stuff that was the flipside of 1e AD&D in those days. I've always read good things about Allston's Rules Cyclopedia, which came out in 91 as a connected, cleaned up version of all that, I think. Might lack the Immortal levels, though...
Oct 8, 2023 4:34 am
WhtKnt says:
Hmmm, I'm almost tempted to break out my BECMI Immortals rules and run something, but most of you kids wouldn't be familiar with the rules.
I never heard them referrer to as "BECMI" but I grew up on the box sets before they had editions. I played one a bit ago, totally forgetting clerics didn't even have spells till 2nd level. 1st level was really scary easy to die.
Last edited October 8, 2023 2:23 pm
Oct 8, 2023 11:26 pm
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. . . having freedom and agency to both choose and undertake actions of one's own volition. Rather than merely being given quests. A high-level character might take quests, but instead of being the character that reacts to circumstances, they can act on the world to achieve ambitions and dreams greater than doing the bidding of others or being subject to the mercies of destiny. They can choose to do so and have at least a reasonable chance of succeeding.
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Rabbits says:
Depending on Lifepath choices, you can get a high-level character in Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, etc..., which might be a fun option.
What are those games?
Just to repeat what I'm understanding here, you want "decisions to matter without contrivance." What matters is the "freedom and agency to choose and undertake actions of one's own volition." You are possibly thinking high-level play will correct this, because the fictional positioning and fictional authority implicit in high-level play, will allow the character to express their freedom.

Does that sound about right?

My gut feeling is you're looking for Storygame or Narrativist style of play, which Burning Wheel is just one of many. My gut also says that the high-level color, genre, or flavor, is not required to get that style of play. Rather, it is an agreement between players to play in a particular style, and finding a rule set that supports it.

Have you tried any Narrativist or Storygame systems?

That being said, I shy away from abstract game theory discussions - and prefer just to play games, and not stress the philosophy of it all.

If you wanted to experiment with this style of play... I think Ironsworn could be good entry into narrativist play (though it has a learning curve) but I find it does well in PbP. If you still wanted that high-level flavor/color/genre, Ironsworn can handle that by just adjusting the assets.
Last edited October 8, 2023 11:27 pm
Oct 9, 2023 12:37 am
The Rules Cyclopedia does lack the Immortals rules, but I have all five sets, so that wouldn't be an issue. As for finding the rules, all boxed sets are available on DriveThruRPG, and really, if you have played D&D, you've played BECMI. For a brief history of the controversial Immortals rules, you can take a look here. I'd have to look them over again, as it's been a long while since I've played with them, but if enough people were interested, I might be persuaded to run something.
Oct 9, 2023 5:46 am
Quote:
Just to repeat what I'm understanding here, you want "decisions to matter without contrivance." What matters is the "freedom and agency to choose and undertake actions of one's own volition." You are possibly thinking high-level play will correct this, because the fictional positioning and fictional authority implicit in high-level play, will allow the character to express their freedom.

Does that sound about right?
For the most part. Powerful characters are much more likely than weak characters to possess agency, but they do not necessarily have it.
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Have you tried any Narrativist or Storygame systems?
I can't answer that accurately, since I don't know what specifically is a Narrativist or Storygame system. I have tried to play many games with fewer or looser rules than usual, such as the ubiquitous Fate and Powered by the Apocalypse.
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If you wanted to experiment with this style of play... I think Ironsworn could be good entry into narrativist play (though it has a learning curve) but I find it does well in PbP. If you still wanted that high-level flavor/color/genre, Ironsworn can handle that by just adjusting the assets.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Oct 9, 2023 1:46 pm
I've been looking for a dnd 5e game that starts at level 5 or 6 and goes all the way to level 20 for a very long time too so that's what I think a high tier dnd game.
Oct 9, 2023 2:36 pm
I think Rabbits has the gist of it, and is onto something. I’ve struggled to really articulate what I think would answer the mail on what BDG is after. I do not think it’s just high level D&D / trad play, but a completely different style of game — one where the PCs are badasses, they are the center of the story, etc. Being powerful in terms of mechanics doesn’t necessarily give you agency, though certain abilities, spells and such certainly help. But you need the social contract part of it, the ‘GM is a fan of the players’ bit that is so prevalent, indeed, in PbtA and Fate games.

I’ve got to think something like games like Monster of the Week, Nights Black Agents, various two-fisted pulp games and various superhero games are really well-suited overall, but I think what’s needed is that agreement and accord on the style of play.
Oct 9, 2023 3:43 pm
[ +- ] Gist of Harrigan quoted text: a completely different style of game — one where the PCs are badasses, they are the center of the story, etc.
This type of game sounds like it could be super fun. In some aspects it could be harder, in my experience of games, but it would be very rewarding. Not knowing the systems mentioned, my viewpoint could be somewhat limited.

Even if the characters are given a situation, and then some of their resources, they would still be the large driving force around what happens over all. I would think that basics, or limitations per character, would have to be given/settled in character/world setup as it could possibly have players going 'what do we do?' for eons.

Like, if a pc was a ruler, what tools/pawns do they have? Then when the pc encounters the overall situation, they have knowledge of tools they can use to handle it how they want to handle it. Do they have alliances with other rulers? A large military force or a small one? Good/poor diplomatic relations? A reliable spy network? Trustworthy/suspicious aides/subordinates?

If a pc was that legendary hermit people went to for advice, how solitary are they? Why do they help or not help? Would they have animal connections? Be welcomed by old friends, people or places they have assisted? Be spurned by places/people who either did not get help or did not like the advice and so didn't use it? Would they have acolytes/apprentices around the place?

Or if the pc is a hidden figure, moving things behind the scenes, how do they do so? Are they reliant on the underworld or are they just incognito as they hate the spotlight?

Over all it sounds quite interesting. Even if it seems like someone else's problem they want help with, the scale would be grander and your help - if granted - would mean that you had control over the outcome. If you asked a dragon to help save your village, and they accepted, they would 100% have the commanding role there. Even a ruler would have to listen to the dragon they asked for help.

I'd love to try and play a game like this, and it also sounds interesting to run. As a GM you could, in general, be more reactive when making the plot outside of overall set up as you are narrating the outcome of their choices and not giving them the choices to make. It wouldn't be the pcs playing your story as a 'choose your own adventure' type deal, but more the GM offers premise and outcomes/consequences while the players create the story. Like giving the GM multiple writing prompts almost.
Oct 9, 2023 5:00 pm
This sounds like a game I'd like to run some day, but using Feng Shui. The premise would be time traveling to fight the old gods who are messing with history.

In Feng Shui the characters are world beaters, action movie heroes basically. Big Trouble in Little China, or more James Bond or Rambo or Kill Bill than say a drama about sad people.
Oct 9, 2023 5:19 pm
Big Trouble in Little China is such a good movie. Cheesy, old, probably offensive, but a lot of it still stands up. That would be a heck of a fun game. I'll have to google Feng Shui though.

Being the A-Team in your game would be so fun. Just a good, quirky time.
Oct 9, 2023 5:49 pm
Amberthegirlgeekgamer87 says:
I've been looking for a dnd 5e game that starts at level 5 or 6 and goes all the way to level 20 for a very long time too so that's what I think a high tier dnd game.
That would be ideal
Oct 10, 2023 12:37 am
I was thinking about running a High or higher power level prowlers and paragons game with three or more simultaneous unrelated nation or world threatening events / antagonists, possibly with the players splitting into teams to tackle different threats depending on what their powers are suited for
Oct 10, 2023 4:28 am
Harrigan says:
But you need the social contract part of it, the ‘GM is a fan of the players’ bit that is so prevalent, indeed, in PbtA and Fate games.
I wouldn't know. I've never been in a game of either that lasted more than two scenes. Quite a few Apocalypse World games I've tried to be a part in have explicitly banned the playbook I find most interesting, Hardholder.
Miss_Sadie says:
This type of game sounds like it could be super fun. In some aspects it could be harder, in my experience of games, but it would be very rewarding. Not knowing the systems mentioned, my viewpoint could be somewhat limited.

...

It wouldn't be the pcs playing your story as a 'choose your own adventure' type deal, but more the GM offers premise and outcomes/consequences while the players create the story. Like giving the GM multiple writing prompts almost.
Does this site have post karma I can award? My approval of this post is very high.

Also, Big Trouble in Little China is one of the greatest films of all time.
Qralloq says:
This sounds like a game I'd like to run some day, but using Feng Shui. The premise would be time traveling to fight the old gods who are messing with history.
While I would be willing to try it, this does miss the mark somewhat, because my immediate question is "well why am I not playing those old gods messing with history? Time wars! Heccin yeah!"
Sera says:
I was thinking about running a High or higher power level prowlers and paragons game with three or more simultaneous unrelated nation or world threatening events / antagonists, possibly with the players splitting into teams to tackle different threats depending on what their powers are suited for
I do like superheroines.
Oct 10, 2023 4:51 am
I've just joined the discord, ping me any time if you'd like to brainstorm something or just chat
Last edited October 10, 2023 4:57 am
Oct 10, 2023 5:33 am
Incidentally, Q, I have recommended Feng Shui as a potentially great platform for this kind of character-driven, high-agency, badasses extraordinaire game to BDG before...

Great minds think alike! And so to we, DUR!
Oct 11, 2023 4:18 am
I just came here to throw my hat in the ring to play the BBEG.

You dont want to GM GOD tier threats and play the God Tyr.
Oct 11, 2023 5:37 am
I've asked to play a villain or villain protagonist quite a few times. It tends to go South when I start explaining, as reasonably as I can manage, that a proper single antagonist in a game with a lot of fighting needs to be able to take the entire PC party at once and have a decent chance of winning, or they're not scary. That's usually when I'm yelled at or kicked out.
Oct 11, 2023 1:51 pm
Sera says:
I've just joined the discord, ping me any time if you'd like to brainstorm something or just chat
Same here!
Oct 11, 2023 2:29 pm
Any advice on presenting a BBEG the party can not defeat? I tried it once and thought it would be awesome for level 4 characters to see a dragon and survive.
But they got mad they had to run away. They said it wasn't heroic, which is what they wanted.
Oct 11, 2023 2:39 pm
Qralloq says:
This sounds like a game I'd like to run some day, but using Feng Shui. The premise would be time traveling to fight the old gods who are messing with history.
I know this isn't an interest check (but we're at the Tavern, right?)... So, just saying - I'm interested in playing this one. Count me in, whenever you run it. =D
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