OOC: 7. VI Rights Activism

Please pardon the facetious title. However, after using the term elsewhere in an off-handed manner, I find I kinda like it, so I use it again here. The point of this thread is to keep track of what Hank wants to work on with this so I don't forget, and so I don't clutter the main thread with otherwise needless posts. While I am initially creating this for notes on Hanks thoughts and desired activities related to this, this is an open thread and anyone can comment and contribute here. The more ideas the better!

Right now Hank is trying to gather info and baselining. Kelly and the other two should be able to serve as controls to an extent, as they have not been unusually stressed yet since the last mind wipe. So that should help. He particularly wants to keep an eye on Kelly and would like to put her into an unusual situation in order to see her responses. He hopes that the other two can remain as boring and unchallenged as possible, so they can remain as controls.

He also wants to talk with both Maya and RB individually. With Maya, he will start cagey to get her thoughts on why RB mustn't be mind wiped, but he will be very upfront after that and explain the situation with James and Kelly. With RB, he wants to get a better understanding of how RB thinks and feels, and how he processes those feelings (Hank will also find out what his preferred pronouns are.) RB should be a useful comparison for what the synths are going to be going through.

With James, Hank wants to avoid a mind wipe as much as possible. He wants to see where this goes. Obviously, if he becomes dangerous, that's one thing. But if he becomes merely distracted, Hank will want to exhaust "therapy" before resorting to another mind wipe.

Basically, James and Kelly's behavior before their last mind wipe, and James's quick regression has shattered Hank's prior understanding of VIs. Maya's insistence on RB not being mind wiped finished pushing him over the edge. He is now determined to find out the real situation and wants to avoid mind wipes on any of the synths until some answers are found. He knows he can't change society, but he can at least do right by those in his circle.

Just keep in mind what our characters all know: the primary - and indispensable - purpose of Synths on every interstellar ship is to navigate and keep the ship running while in hyperspace, something which humans cannot do. It's the reason the Celestial Voyager's Synths exist.

The way I've been looking at it - and I suspect our characters would, too - is that the mind wipes are a safety precaution to keep our tools from starting to think that they're people that don't need the humans who are asleep and helpless on the ship. "I want to do what I want to do!"

Or, an alternative that just occurred to me: that the individuality and sense of personhood that we exhibit is a fundamental part of why we humans cannot remain conscious during hyperspace travel. If that's the case, then a Synth that starts to exhibit personality changes might eventually reach the point where it goes mad just like a human: the mind-wipes are protecting it from reaching that point.

Either one of those makes sense to me, given what we know from the initial world-building: a Synth that develops its own identity and autonomy separate from the ship's computer is a Synth that can no longer be put in charge of hyperspace navigation, and that eliminates their purpose. The setting information post on Synths explains that such a Synth would be a "philosopher droid:" without that purpose, such "philosopher droids" would be fantastically expensive vanity items with both no navigation role on the ship, and would create a need to be replaced by another Synth who could do the job (I'll say it again: VERY expensive).

Back to my conjecture: in addition to what we know - Synths are all connected to the same ship's computer, and Synths that degrade too far cannot fulfill their role - it seems like a Synth that doesn't get memory-wiped and begins to evolve beyond its programming may also present a danger of subverting/contaminating the others on the ship (since they are all networked via and with the ship's computer) that just gets worse as time continues the glitches/degradation that manifests as personality changes/individual identity.

That's my conjecture. We won't know until your experiments play out.

But what we all do know is:
We cannot effectively travel between systems without hyperspace.
We cannot travel in hyperspace without Synths that remain extensions of the ship's computer.

"How much personality will a Synth develop without a mind-wipe?" is inextricably tied to the question "How long does it take without a mind-wipe for a Synth to no longer be able to fulfill its primary purpose of navigating a ship through hyperspace?" That's a very dangerous experiment to conduct with all of our lives, and everyone on the ship knows this. We're all experienced space travelers. Too much personality, and we're stranded...or we never come out of hyperspace.

By all means proceed with your experiments, but just remember that baseline that Hank already knows.

RB is an interesting case, as it seems to be one of these "vanity Synths" that is no longer connected to its ship computer: it is autonomous and has more personality, and presumably is now like any other member of the crew: unable to navigate during hyperspace travel (or is it able to and Maya trusts it to wake her again? That's another interesting question). If Maya is comfortable with having a super-expensive companion that is basically a crewmate, that's fine. But what Maya has chosen for RB is not the same as what we choose for our Synths: we need the Celestial Voyager's Synths to remain in a state where we'll be able to travel out of this system!

=D

Actually, that's a wonderful counter-proposal. Let's find out!

Another side note: After the latest revelations from James to both Hank and Corbin, Hank wants to experiment with teaching James how to "sleep". I don't know what that would look like for a VI. However, they need the ability to just stop doing things and "rest". Not turn off or shutdown. But enter a low-power state of some kind that allows them to sub-process their experiences without just piling everything on top with no breaks.

Hank also wants to have a long conversation with RB. He needs to figure out how RB has managed to handle all of this, though I am not sure if he is a true VI, or something different.

He is a VI, like the Synths, but his model was not specially built for hyperspace travels. He is a general purpose mechanic and spaceship operator.

Perfect! That means his experience is directly applicable. So, that works out for what Hank is trying to do.

daryen says:

Another side note: After the latest revelations from James to both Hank and Corbin, Hank wants to experiment with teaching James how to "sleep". I don't know what that would look like for a VI. However, they need the ability to just stop doing things and "rest". Not turn off or shutdown. But enter a low-power state of some kind that allows them to sub-process their experiences without just piling everything on top with no breaks.

Hank also wants to have a long conversation with RB. He needs to figure out how RB has managed to handle all of this, though I am not sure if he is a true VI, or something different.

In other words, you want to allow them a soft reset and a scheduled defragmentation and reprocessing time as well as self analysis. It does sound somewhere between sleep and meditation. ...

---

I think I'll have Mercer be unconvinced, but not unwilling to be convinced, but he's never had any reason to follow this line of thought or second guess the sentience of the tools that make hyperspace travel possible.
But also if you tried to convince *ME* that my laptop was sapient you'd have a lot of work to do. I think it would be the same with him.

That's cool. I agree that we should have a diversity of opinion on how to treat the VIs. I think this helps the game. For Hank, I chose to pick up on these threads given by htech, so I am having this completely challenge his viewpoint POV and prior assumptions. He isn't convinced yet, but he's definitely along that path. Do also note that Hank is not going to be publicizing everything he's doing. He will keep Corbin in the loop and directly work with him. He will keep the Captain updated with his findings. For everyone else, he's just not going to be announcing things to everyone.

Also, if you want to convince me that my laptop was sapient, that would be impossible. But, if my laptop started doing things it never had before, including being highly proactive on certain things and showing actual emotions unprompted, then you will have my attention. What James is doing, twice now, and what Kelly did before is extraordinary. That would get my attention in a comparable real-world situation. Nothing like that has happened yet.

On that note, I think Mercer would ask Corbin (probably with any synths able to overhear) if they were able to be updated with sparring practice programming. Obviously not dangerous to them or anyone, but he would be curious. And it may be interesting for the synths.

Don't know the correct place to ask this, so I'll do it here.

Assuming we do end up wanting to provide VIREN a synth body, how expensive is a brain-less synth body?

As a side question, how expensive is a synth body with a VI brain?

The Synth brain is what makes it so expensive. It's body is relatively cheap. Here are our True AI body rules:

---

Body
Strength, Constitution or Dexterity should be between 3 and 18. Each point costs 250 credits. A 5,000 body is reasonable. This assumes you buy a standard robot off the market and then customizes it for AI use as an armature. Such customization takes 1 day for every 1,000 credits. Faster depending on your Fix roll.

---

Brain
A True AI also has something akin to Effort from a psychic. This "Effort" is Committed to fuel Routines, which are special abilities granted by the AI’s unique nature. An AI recovers all Committed Effort once per 24 hours, at a 00:00 UTC.

The amount of Effort an AI has depends on the size of the processing cluster it has access to. A naked AI core can access a maximum Effort of 1 plus the higher of its Wisdom or Intelligence modifiers, even if no other cluster is available. If wired or connected to a cluster, though, a larger maximum Effort score is obtained. The costs and bonus granted by a computing cluster are listed below:


This computing hardware also need to be customized for the AI to use. Same 1 day for every 1,000 credits, but it can go faster with a Program roll. An AI, committing Effort, can do this customization even faster and bootstrap itself.

A bonus of +7 or higher is either unusable or will make the AI "go crazy". A repurposed Synth brain is worth +2 Effort. Taking over all CV's Synths would give VIREN a +4.

Moreover, higher numbers takes more space. Processing clusters worth up to 5,000 takes 1-2 encumbrance. 10,000 credits may be carried and powered by a group of people or a gravcar or similar vehicle. Those up to 250,000 credits may be powered and carried by a starship of frigate-class or larger, and those of 5,000,000 credits or more need to be based in a stationary facility or capital-class ship hull. Starships that wish to mount a processing cluster must dedicate as much Power to it as it grants maximum Effort points. Elder's artifact processing nodes may be much smaller and lighter than these TL4 models. Some are even self-powered.

---

Synths
A regular Synth costs 50,000 credits.

Giving the Synths to VIREN is not cost effective. For In game reasons, you may learn in the future that it is very, very fast to change them, though. It can refurbish and use one if them in minutes both as a body and as an Effort bonus.

OK, let's see if I understand this correct:

Just a Body:
We can spend Cr6,000 to get a synth body with stats 8, 8, 8. (Meta-game for no penalties.) If we install the core into that, they will be able to operate sufficiently at base capacity with base Effort 1.

Just a Computer:
We can spend Cr5,000 to get a computer that will have no physical stats and be immobile and install the core into that. They will have a camera, microphone, speaker, holographic display, and various inputs, but absolutely no direct or indirect connection to literally anything else. This will give them a base Effort 3.

Use a Synth:
We could buy an entire blank synth for Cr50,000 and install the core into that. I don't know what stats that would give it (I assume 8, 8, 8 because, why wouldn't it be?), but it would have all the advantages it would have for installing it directly into a brain-less body, but it will also gain a base Effort of 3.

Options farther to field ...

The Ship's Computer:
We'll assume the CV has a computer equivalent to the Cr50,000 level, so installing the core into that will give them a base Effort 5 and allow them to completely run the ship. (This, I assume, is something we totally want to *avoid*.)

Maya's Shuttle:
Assuming Maya's shuttle has a Spike drive, we could install the core into Maya's shuttle. I assume the shuttle would have a Cr10,000 equivalent computer, giving a base Effort 4. Then, we could add in a brain-less synth or RB-style body it can remote control within the ship to maintain and keep it running but not affect the Effort. This could actually be a pretty cool setup for VIREN, to be honest.

There seems to be a side implication here that no matter what we give it, once it stops being dormant it could flat out take over both the ship's computer AND the synths. Maybe even RB. In that case, it would gain such an Effort bonus it would go instantly insane. That seems like something worth trying to avoid. One would hope, however, that VIREN's desire for self-preservation would prevent it from doing something that stupid.

Well, this could be a further conversation. It may not want to be in a ship that someone else owns.
There is a Civilian Security Bot, and a Repair Bot that are also both 5k. (And a Soldier Bot for 10k). We could give it a choice. Be a part of someone else's vessel or habeits own robotic form?

....
There is also the option of giving it a few cheaper models(linked processing computer systems exist even now): a few Industrial Work Bots(2k), Companion Bots(2.5k), or Janitor Bot(1k). In this scenario I would suggest a budget and let it choose.
I think I cluding it in the conversation would garner goodwill.

---

Comment from Hailing Frequencies:
By the way, I think we could present it well to the AI. That we still plan to follow through with our agreement to get it a body (I believe we do?), but In The Meanwhile while we work on that we would like to give it the option to express and interact and build relation with the crew trying to help it.
Then we can get further conversation about what it's expectations are. I wouldn't be surprised if it was ok with a stop on the way, it has waited quite somme time already after all.
Mercer has a good talk so I think he could handle that convoy, or at least aid.

A Synth rolls 1d6+9 for its physical stats. Average human is 10 all across but Synths are usually stronger/faster/resistant to handle unforeseen situations.

Edit: You can't think about/consider Maya’s shuttle. Its hers and will be sold. The Solaris is fair game, though, so everything you said applies to it.

Actually, it is not cumulative/linear. Taking the CV'S Helm, Nav Computers and all Synths would give VIREN just a +5, but would let it effectively control the CV both in and out of hyperspace. RB wouldn't matter and is so different that VIREN wouldn't want it.

It would take a huge stationary facility/capital ship for a +6 bonus, not 3 times a +2 bonus. It takes a planet-wide computer network for a +7, an entire planetary system, or even a Dyson sphere for a +8. Maybe the Elders once reached +10? I don't know...

I will answer that in game, in the future, when Mercer asks =)

So basically we are releasing Ultron/Skynet cool.

If we were going to use Maya's shuttle, it is with the (previously unstated) assumption that we would buy it from her first. So, she gets her money either way. It's just whether she gets it from "someone else" or we pay her for the shuttle. This would likely only be worth the bother if it has a Spike drive. Hank would never ask her to donate either of her two most valuable assets. It would always be with the understanding of proper compensation.

Likewise, if we did give VIREN a shuttle, it would not be with the understanding that this means we now own them. It would be with the understanding that the shuttle is VIREN's. Maybe we have an explicit agreement that it is basically his pay or something like that, but it would never be with huge, permanent strings attached. No ownership and no indentured servitude; just employment. Basically, it would mean the shuttle is VIREN's "body" and be treated that way.
I assume you meant Skynet? At a certain level, yes. However, VIREN would have to do some significant character growth and drastically increase the size of its resources to the point it goes insane. If that were to happen, yes, it could be bad. But at that point we would have had to make multiple bad decisions, not just one.

Let me put it this way. If we found a Zyronian(?) human engineer frozen in cryostasis and freed him, would we still be having all these same arguments? Give that human Fix-2 and Program-2 and an intense focus to get somewhere and it isn't going to be that much less dangerous than VIREN.

For a meta-game point, consider this. The entire point of our overall and eventual mission is to find Elder artifacts, technology, and resources. (Indeed this is an assumption of the base game and setting!) We just found two! If we are too afraid to try and work with the two artifacts we have now, should we really be marching towards the lion's den that could be 100x worse? If we can't figure out how to handle these gifts now, are we sure we want to go past Altairia? I am NOT saying we should charge in blindly. But I am saying we shouldn't just get rid of or completely cripple VIREN, either. We need to find a way forward with VIREN that isn't reckless, but allows that way forward. I'd much rather enter that lion's den with a lion on our side than doing it alone.

Finally, I do want to note that while I do think that we should work with VIREN as much as possible and try to win them to our side, that is not required. If the group is against it, I and Hank will fall in line, support the decision, and work to advance the decision irrespective of my opinions. So, even if I appear to be arguing strenuously (I hope it doesn't look like that, but it is very hard for me to tell and I can accidentally be pretty strident even in person), I am not going to die on this hill. I am simply trying to make my point as best as possible, then I will live with the results of the decision no matter what it is.

This seems like a discussion best served In Character during this week. ;)