Talking About the Weather (OOC)

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Aug 25, 2024 12:02 pm
Delirium says:
... That makes the failure far more interesting! ...
Yes, that is a core tenet of PbtA: 'Nothing never happens.' No matter the dice outcome the story is always driven forward. The GM Moves are what happens on a 6- (unless the Move explicitly says otherwise).
Delirium says:
... I wouldn't presume to suggest anything ...
You always need to agree to the outcome, else it is not valid. Technically you should know before you roll what might happen, but I tend to try to rely on the fiction to make that fairly clear, PbP can be very slow to hash it out each time.

Getting a feel for what you consider a viable response is important, especially with new players, so your reply, here, is useful.
Delirium says:
... because I don't know the NPC well enough and how he might react ...
He is new to all of us, this is the first time we have seen him. But, sure, I have to keep his motivations in mind and have him act accordingly.
Delirium says:
... to being teased. ...
You see, that is an important part of this discussion. I had not interpreted it as 'teasing', more as 'testing boundaries', or even as 'challenging him'. If you genuinely meant it as teasing, and we think that is how he would see it, I will take that into account.

What you meant to do is very relevant. Tell me if this is truly how you saw it. I am leaving the RP open to your correcting in that direction and defusing the situation a bit.
Delirium says:
... Will he be satisfied ... threats against her/her loved ones, ... a slap ... prove he does know all her secrets ... amused with her brazen attitude and offer her an opportunity to work for him ... ...
This is useful for calibrating things. Thank you. Of course, since we already know it ends 'badly', things like the opportunity would not be something Emma likes doing. :) You could always try turning such an opportunity down.
Delirium says:
... At any case, I'll learn something ...
Indeed. We always move the story forward.
Delirium says:
... Privately: vagueGM
If you want to make it a bit more dark, he could feed on her AGAINST her will. Being helpless and weak, overpowered physically, is one of her real fears, with some parallels to her first relationship. It will also tie in nicely if Benji finds him feeding on her when he arrives.
Just a thought. ...
Thank you for the preemptive permission, I would have had to ask for that permission before acting if we went that way.

We went from talking to where we are now, so I would tend towards a Softer Move, at first. This is definitely on the table for a Harder Move from the next 6- in the scene, but you should have the chance to avoid a bad outcome (the ability to change the outcome is that makes a Move Soft or Hard).

We also need to be mindful that Benji has an ongoing relationship with Elliot, one he can't easily get out of or avoid, so I would suggest having the forced feeding happen before he gets there, so he does not have the moral dilemma of needing to take action about it. unless oopsylon wanted to start a war with his overlord.
Aug 26, 2024 1:17 am
vagueGM says:
What could Teddy possibly have done for you that you Owe him a Debt?
Let’s say Teddy stepped in and smoothed things over with Elliot after Benji inadvertantly upset/annoyed him one time
vagueGM says:
The way I did it (and I am happy to do it for you) is:

• Hit the Quote button below The Fea entry in the Playbooks thread [ref].
• In the wall of bbCode soup use the Search function (ctrl-f, maybe) to search for In Our Blood.
• Notice that the first occurrence is shorter than expected and see that there is a place on your own sheet that just has the Move names and Stats. This is for easy rolling from the menu below where we post. If you want to use that, copy that line to your sheet in the right place.
• Edit your own sheet. Search for Eternal Hunger. The first result will be in the roll-table for the Moves on your sheet. Add the short version below the ones that are there.
• Search again in your sheet for Eternal Hunger (or any Move on your sheet). The seconds result should be the full text.
• Copy the 'Vamp Moves ...' heading (or create from scratch, whichever you find easier at the time:) and create a new heading below all your Moves, call it 'Moves from Other Playbooks'.
• Back In the Fae sheet, Search again for In Our Blood, the second result should be the full text.
• Copy the text of the Move and paste it to your sheet below the Moves for Other Playbooks heading.
• You need to tick the checkmarks on both, it might be easiest to Save and Exit the sheet and then click them, but you can also change the [ _=0/1] to [ _=1/1] while copy/pasting.

Let me know if you need any help.
Thanks for the instructions! I’ve added the move to my sheet
vagueGM says:
We also need to be mindful that Benji has an ongoing relationship with Elliot, one he can't easily get out of or avoid, so I would suggest having the forced feeding happen before he gets there, so he does not have the moral dilemma of needing to take action about it. unless oopsylon wanted to start a war with his overlord.
I don’t know that Benji would necessarily intervene. I think vampires (especially older vampires) tend to think of humans in a similar way to how a lot of humans think of non-human animals. They might feel protective or affectionate toward some of them (like people love their pets), but the rest are just animals and Benji doesn’t know Emma so he has no reason to feel protective toward her.

Benji doesn’t like to feed on unwilling victims for a variety of reasons but, if he walked in on Elliot feeding on an unwilling victim, it would be less like witnessing an assault and more akin to a vegetarian walking in on someone eating a steak. It’s not Benji’s style and he might feel sorry for her, but it would be weird and rude of him to intervene.
Last edited August 26, 2024 1:17 am
Aug 26, 2024 7:57 am
@Delirium, I have to say I love your posts so far; they really make me feel as if I'm stepping into Emma's shoes!
oopsylon says:
it would be less like witnessing an assault and more akin to a vegetarian walking in on someone eating a steak
Hehehe, so clear :)
Last edited August 26, 2024 7:58 am
Aug 26, 2024 10:16 am
oopsylon says:
... Let’s say Teddy stepped in and smoothed things over with Elliot ....
Cool. Does that also mean he may be open to not mentioning to Elliot who you were with? If it comes to it, and incurring another Debt. If he were asked directly if he knows anything about Lizabeth he probably would not lie (unless you can really Persuade him), but you could probably get him to not mention it on his own.

I am seeing Teddy as a simple vampire, but maybe one who is older than the upstart Elliot and still respects his elders. This can give you an in.
oopsylon says:
... I’ve added the move to my sheet ....
Looks good.
oopsylon says:
... Benji doesn’t know Emma so he has no reason to feel protective toward her. ....
Do we want to start the relationship with 'you stood by and watched!'? Might make it harder to integrate Emma into the group. But it could make for an interesting dynamic if we wanted to go that route. I wouldn't advise it, but it is an option.

I would still be more inclined to have Benji arrive in the aftermath of whatever happens. He can help pick up the pieces but does not need to be complicit.
Aug 26, 2024 10:18 am
Delirium says:
(in RP) ... But maybe she could find some other way to hold his interest, remind him there is still some value to keeping her alive ...
As Benji notes [ref], humans can make good pets. :)

It sounds like you are suggesting Elliot keep you as a pet rather than get angry? But this seems like a lie, right? You might be trying to Persuade him that you will be worth keeping around, but it seems more like you are Misleading him into believing you are making such an offer.

Your intentions matter here. If you indent to actually follow-through with being his pet, then it is Persuade, if you don't then it is Mislead. On a 7-9 on Persuade he wants more, possibly wants you long-term as a new vampire, and you will have to work to maintain your freedom while also honoring your offer. If it is a lie, then the consequences will come later, depending on what you pick from the list.

Either way (or in some other way if you can suggest something else) I can see him going for your 'offer', but the dice need to tell us how it turns out.

Define your position and we can have you roll.
Aug 26, 2024 10:25 am
She's not misleading him, per se, because she really does believe she is so much fun to be around :)


So either persuade, or possibly the Aware's 'let it out'? (Convince an NPC to act on thier kindness, role, or own best interest)
Aug 26, 2024 10:26 am
gnomius says:
@Delirium, I have to say I love your posts so far; they really make me feel as if I'm stepping into Emma's shoes!
Thank you kindly :)
Aug 26, 2024 11:32 am
vagueGM says:
Does that also mean he may be open to not mentioning to Elliot who you were with?
Maybe! I thought Teddy didn’t see Benji with Lizabeth though because Benji Kept his Cool?
vagueGM says:
I am seeing Teddy as a simple vampire, but maybe one who is older than the upstart Elliot and still respects his elders. This can give you an in.
Sounds good :)
vagueGM says:
I would still be more inclined to have Benji arrive in the aftermath of whatever happens. He can help pick up the pieces but does not need to be complicit.
Yeah, I would prefer that too! I just wanted to point out that Benji probably wouldn’t perceive the situation the way you were suggesting he would. To be honest, I’m much more interested (and comfortable) in using the vampire-victim dynamic to explore humanity’s position on the food chain and the ethics of eating, than approaching it from a ‘feeding=sex’ metaphor sort of angle.
Aug 26, 2024 12:21 pm
Delirium says:
gnomius says:
@Delirium, I have to say I love your posts so far; they really make me feel as if I'm stepping into Emma's shoes!
Thank you kindly :)
Indeed. I am well pleased about adding you. :)
I hope you are getting what you expected. The detailed OOCs should diminish as the newness fades.
Aug 26, 2024 12:23 pm
oopsylon says:
... I thought Teddy didn’t see Benji with Lizabeth though because Benji Kept his Cool? ...
Absolutely. So far. But this opens up some options for how you proceed, if you can't get her safely into the apartment, or whatever. There is also your demon-buddy, who you might not want Elliot to know about if you keep him the car for a fast getaway or don't take up to Elliot's.

This was more about Teddy's personality and your options than about the current situation that you are in control of.
oopsylon says:
... Benji probably wouldn’t perceive the situation the way you were suggesting he would. ...
I was less 'suggesting' than saying we might not want to have to deal with that scene.
oopsylon says:
... vampire-victim dynamic ... than ... ‘feeding=sex’ metaphor ...
Noted.

Does Elliot feel differently? Or is he currently trying to 'seduce' Emma into becoming his 'victim' um... he meant to say food, no he meant to say ... what is the word, you know the one where people like each other and are friendly? ...

Do you want us to change anything from the interaction so far, or from how we go forward? Absent any direction I was using the description from the book:
page 109 says:
The Vamp (Night) —Seductive and merciless, the Vamp is a creature that must feed on humanity to survive from night-to-night.
Aug 26, 2024 12:24 pm
Delirium says:
... She's not misleading him, per se, because she really does believe she is so much fun to be around ...
That part is true, but that is not about him. There might be an offer that she is willing to be fun around him, to make his life more fun, but that is either an offer or a fake offer, hence my suggested Moves.
Delirium says:
... or possibly the Aware's 'let it out'? (Convince an NPC to act on thier kindness ...
Yeah, we have to assume he has some 'kindness', and we might not like what he sees as kindness (we are kind to our pets when we house-train them:).

This does seem like a perfect Move for what we have in the fiction. A way to actually get on his side.

If you want to, add that roll, with extra fiction in a new post since it is tapping into your darker self and we have not seen what that is like yet.
Aug 26, 2024 12:26 pm
I think we need to move where those Let It Out Abilities are listed on the sheet, they are too hard to find and get forgotten about. I was actually fiddling with this yesterday, and think I sorta like what I did with the Reference Sheet with them listed below the Moves. I tried putting them up by the roll-table with Let It Out (+Spirit), but the are a too long(-winded) and spill all over the place and don't look right. Above the Moves is also an option I considered.

What do we think?
Aug 26, 2024 12:43 pm
As of this scene, Elliot is the only vampire Emma knows. She doesn’t want to go back to a 9-5 job. She doesn’t want to sever the only connection she has to the supernatural world. But a master-pet relationship is not what she had in mind either. I don’t think she’s misleading him; she’s quite willing to associate with him, learn whatever she can while adding a little splash of color to his unlife. I don’t know if this is enough for a Persuade move though–that depends if this is something he desires. Maybe he is completely jagged, and sees no value of interacting with a beautiful woman on a more equitable grounds.

I thought ‘letting it out’ would be a bit darker take on the above; on account on what she’s willing to do or overlook as part of their relationship, with much the same motivation.
Aug 26, 2024 1:03 pm
Delirium says:
... a master-pet relationship is not what she had in mind either. ...
Which is why I was thinking you were Misleading him with your 'offer'. That is the only sort of relationship Elliot understands, he is ultimately an ambitious predator. As it says in the Playbook:
page 158 says:
Seductive, merciless, eternal, starving. The Vamp is a parasite that must feed on humanity to survive. The only thing greater than their hunger… is their ambition.
I think the Move's description still applies, Emma has to know, deep down, that this is not a conversation among equals and that she probably does not really want to commit too much.

If you go with Persuade, than what is implied in his mind is what he would hold you to. You are not forced to keep your 'promises', but you will pay the price for trying to back out later.
Delirium says:
... sees no value of interacting with a beautiful woman on a more equitable grounds. ...
Sounds like a valuable bauble to own and parade around. :)
Delirium says:
... I thought ‘letting it out’ would be a bit darker take on the above; on account on what she’s willing to do or overlook as part of their relationship ...
Agreed. If you are willing to delve into the darker side, then it a powerful way to manipulate him into giving you what you want on your terms. The cost is the Corruption on a Partial Success, and even on a full Success if don't you want it to be 'costly, limited, or unstable', as per the Let It Out Move.

I would give you choices as to what the complication is. It could be 'costly' with him demanding more of your time or greater commitment than you want (adding another NPC sucking up your free time); or 'limited', as in, maybe, only for this meeting, then he realises you played upon his emotions and has to make it right, he may continue to play along to save face, but may not be 'on you side'; or 'unstable'... and I am sure you can see how a relationship with an unstable person in a position of power than can go wrong.

What do you want to do?
Aug 26, 2024 1:33 pm
I went with the 'Let it Out', for a partial success (an 8). I will write a new post, but it will likely be only tomorrow. Something along the lines of Emma willing to do some questionable things in order to get her foot in the door of the supernatural world. I'll go with the option of her manipulation causing him to be 'unstable'; maybe he demands more and more of her time, or he puts some of her other relationships in danger so she has nothing else to occupy herself with, or he gets pushy in some other ways. I'll leave it to you.

And thanks for all your patience. I know I'm taking more of your bandwidth than I should.
Aug 26, 2024 1:40 pm
Delirium says:
... 'Let it Out', for a partial success (an 8). ...
Could be worse. :)

Mark Corruption on your sheet.
Delirium says:
... tomorrow ...
No worries.
Delirium says:
... 'unstable'; maybe he demands more and more ...
Excellent. Long term problems. :)
Delirium says:
... I know I'm taking more of your bandwidth than I should. ...
Not a problem at all. I am always happy to teach. I was getting worried that I was overwhelming you, but you are always welcome to ask for whatever you need, either for less input if you want, or for more. I will only give as much as is convenient for me, so don't worry about trying to cater for my needs. :)

You are also welcome to join the GM's Round Table (PbtA) if you want to talk with people about PbtA GMing in more general terms than directly about this game.
Aug 26, 2024 2:04 pm
vagueGM says:
Does Elliot feel differently? Or is he currently trying to 'seduce' Emma into becoming his 'victim' um... he meant to say food, no he meant to say ... what is the word, you know the one where people like each other and are friendly? ...

Do you want us to change anything from the interaction so far, or from how we go forward?
Oh! No, I’m happy for vampires be seductive/sexy/flirtatious/whatever (Benji is probably ace but other vampires can do as they please) and I’m totally comfortable with the direction you and Delirium have taken Elliot and Emma’s relationship. I’d just prefer to lean away from using feeding as a direct metaphor for sex on a meta/narrative level because it has some uncomfortable implications that I’d rather not engage with (e.g. it’s a bit difficult/unpleasant to engage with the corruption mechanics when ‘feed on an unwilling victim’ essentially becomes a metaphor for sexual assault). It’s also just less interesting thematically for me. To me, vampires are cool and scary because they flip the food chain on its head and rob humans of the security and comfort of being ‘the ones on top’ (the hunter becomes the hunted sort of thing) and there are lots of interesting questions about morality and survival that can be explored through that.
Last edited August 26, 2024 2:04 pm
Aug 26, 2024 2:16 pm
oopsylon says:
... I’m happy for vampires be seductive/sexy/flirtatious/whatever ... and I’m totally comfortable with the direction you and Delirium have taken Elliot and Emma’s relationship. ...
Good. Thank you.
oopsylon says:
... Benji is probably ace ...
Is that an important part of his personality or just a lack of interest? Do other vampires consider him weird for that, or are many of the older ones less interested in sex?
oopsylon says:
... metaphor for sexual assault ...
We will keep that as metaphor for assault then, since that is what it is. If they are unwilling or not enjoying themselves, it is not sexual, and therefore not sexual assault. Better that way, thank you.
oopsylon says:
... lots of interesting questions about morality and survival that can be explored through that. ...
Yeah. I used the term 'kine' before. From what I have seen, most cows willingly submit themselves to the farmer for their own reasons, most don't die and it seems to be to their benefit?
Aug 26, 2024 2:30 pm
oopsylon says:
(in RP) ... holding an 80 kg tortoise in his lap. ...
So, is Hermes really 80kg? That is possible, but that is heavier than Lizabeth herself, so she will have a hell of a time getting him to your apartment. :)

But then, presumably he has a lead (leash) and can walk? :)

What is your apartment like? Ground floor or elevator hopefully.
Aug 26, 2024 3:52 pm
vagueGM says:
Is that an important part of his personality or just a lack of interest? Do other vampires consider him weird for that, or are many of the older ones less interested in sex?
I think he’s just never been particularly interested in it. I don’t think other vampires would notice or care.
vagueGM says:
We will keep that as metaphor for assault then, since that is what it is.
Not much of a metaphor then :P
vagueGM says:
We will keep that as metaphor for assault then, since that is what it is. If they are unwilling or not enjoying themselves, it is not sexual, and therefore not sexual assault. Better that way, thank you.
What I am trying to say is that if vampires feeding is treated as a direct metaphor for sex or otherwise inherently sexual, the implication is that feeding on an unwilling victim is analogous to sexual assault and I am uncomfortable engaging with the corruption mechanic in that context. For that reason, I would prefer that we tried to steer away from treating vampiric feeding as a metaphor for sex, if we can. Thank you.
vagueGM says:

So, is Hermes really 80kg? That is possible, but that is heavier than Lizabeth herself, so she will have a hell of a time getting him to your apartment. :)

But then, presumably he has a lead (leash) and can walk? :)

What is your apartment like? Ground floor or elevator hopefully.
I’ve been imagining a big sulcata tortoise :)
There's conflicting information about their weight online. I found one source that said a full grown one would be about 80kg but another that said they max out at 50kg. The 80kg figure was more common online so I went with that. I'm not 100% sure about it, but very heavy in any case. Benji’s apartment is not on the ground floor but there is an elevator.
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