Burning Wheel Gold: Interest?

Hi everybody!

So I helped kickstart the BWG Codex and the thing is burning a hole in my pocket (see what I did there?). But really I've never even (successfully) played a "hub 'n' spokes" game under the core rules. I managed to get a PbP game going over a year ago (on another forum) but it quickly fell to the usual pit-falls of PbP (players kept flaking). Well, here I am wanting to give it another shot, I think the system has some really intriguing concepts that I want to put to the test, and maybe some day put this gorgeous supplementary tome to use. But first I want to start at the start.

Would anyone be interested in a pretty basic, "Hub n Spokes" BWG game? I'd like to go through the campaign burning process and all that, together. I will run it or be a player, if an experienced BW GM wants to step-in and help us out. I only ask that those who throw their names in the hat to play have read the H'n'S (available for free on their website), and can claim some level of understanding of that portion of the system (or a willingness to read it very very soon).

So, yea, any takers?

[EDIT: Looking for 3 or 4 players max]

I'd definitely be interested in playing this, but will allow some others a shot first. If you're still looking for some players after a bit then I'll jump on in!

Thanks for expressing interest, szemely.

I mentioned it to a guy from my IRL group who has expressed interest in the past, and put the word out on another forum, so I'm hoping we might still get off the ground...

Interested. Played and GMed a bunch of BWR, ran The Sword in BWG, never played BW PbP before. I'm about to be running a BWG game in meatspace so I don't think I'm up for GMing this one, though I can act as a pretty good reference.

I recently started up a game here and I'm very glad to see another game starting!

I'm in the same situation as you emsquared. The Codex just has me wanting to play! So I'm in. I've been playing Burning Wheel since classic so like Epigone I can help with rules knowledge.

If there's still a spot for me, I'd certainly be interested! I'm currently three sessions into my first BWG campaign, though our group meets infrequently. I've also got about a year of Torchbearer experience.

Epigone, Verrain, shughr glad to have you on board!

Little intimidated that you all have more experience than me, but so long as you're willing to have some patience and understanding, I look forward to it!

szemely, I feel like 3 players is the sweet spot for me here - given that these 3 will likely have no problem exerting their agency and using the system to engage the gameworld - but I would love to have a 4th player in the queue, ready to jump in should life get in another's way. So I hope you'll accept my invitation to join us in the campaign and character burning process? If that doesn't interest you however, I of course understand, and thank you again for jumping in to begin with.

With regards to campaign burning, I figure we may as well start that here and now? I want to reiterate my desire to keep things on the basic side of things. Towards that goal, would you three (or hopefully four) mind all that terrible much if we limit PCs to one Stock (flexible as to which but just so I don't have to keep track of 3 or 4 different Emotional Attributes)?

Beyond that I'd like to open things up, what interests you guys?

What place will our story take place in and around?

What's the immediate conflict?

What's the big picture?

And so on, you guys know how it goes ... my ears are burning to hear your ideas and desires!

I am fine with us all being the same stock. Now, I would love to try out some of the new stuff in the Codex but I'm not sure if we all own a copy. So if my GM and fellow players are good with it, might I suggest sticking with the Lifepaths of Man but allowing one of the new magic systems? I'd love to give spirit binding a try.

All one stock: fine.
I own the Codex.
I like humans, racism, quests, intrigue.
I've never used spirit binding, but two players in the game I'm starting in meatspace will be using it.

Here are some setting seeds I wrote for my group who wanted an "intrigue campaign": https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yg9KTxJemoF212Opyh92B9vbwr4eSmMTHaswp08QngE/edit?usp=sharing

I think I'll just let you folks to it and jump aboard something else for now. Hope you all have a good time! :-)

Human stock sounds perfect. I also have a codex and have been reading through it. Spirit Binding sounds dope!

Quests are great! I'm comfortable exploring issues of race, so long as it's done in a serious, respectful manner (not that there's any reason to suspect it wouldn't be, just putting it out there). Intrigue is also cool!

Oh yeah to be perfectly clear I don't like racism. But I do like the issue to be present. Not at all a deal breaker if it's not, though.

Human stock it is!

I haven't looked at Spirit Binding, but sounds like everyone's on board with it and conceptually it seems like it should tack onto normal Sorcery fine, as that doesn't have much of any "real" summoning.

Intrigue and quests are pretty broad conflict ideas, working from that base how about we focus on setting for a moment, which I think will help us put a finer point on the exact type of intrigue and or quests?

I browsed your prompts Epigone, and a Mages College setting was actually amongst a list of my own I had created. Could be cool... I also had a Thieves Guild thing, a Pirates/Privateer thing could be rife with drama, or a City Under Siege... I would like to stay away from a straight Noble setting just cuz it's ... well, I feel like it diminishes some of the risk and interest of Lifepath choices as they're just the best everything - years, resources, skills, etc.

What are you guys feeling?

I like Thieves Guild! Not a big fan of boats. Fine with no nobles.

Don't get me wrong, if you "work your way up" into Noble Lifepaths that's cool (whatever setting we decide on), I'm not excluding them, I just don't want to have everyone Born Noble.

I can make Spirit Binding work in a Thieves Guild campaign. Stealing is easy when you can summon the spirit of the door to open for you. :)

I like the idea of a City based campaign. I have this gorgeous map of the City of Greyhawk and always wanted to a campaign that didn't leave it, but that is hard in D&D. So Thieves Guild, under Siege, maybe a Thieves Guild in a City Under Siege! Do we take advantage of the chaos or become heroic smugglers for the people? I'm liking that idea the more that I think of it.

Verrain, is there a digital version of the map? Sounds cool.

I'd like to hear shughr weigh-in on setting if they want to, before we move forward with anything, but I think all that's been mentioned is ripe for picking. And if anyone has other interests they've been burning to try, feel free to bring them to the floor.

The version I have is a poster that came with old D&D box set. I tried to take a picture of it: https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM8KdP7_QjR7CFKEaXbERukjOzVe88Xl-fLtiEW

This website is a recreation of it for a DM to mark up. http://melkot.com/locations/cogh/cogh.html

I looked into Spirit Binding and it is a bit more involved than I expected, and while I don't yet feel fully comfortable with it I'm fine with proceeding using it as everyone else is on board too. It seemed quite powerful, so about all I can say is, if you fail your check don't ever expect there to be no Retribution... >:D

Verrain, regarding the map; the picture link wasn't working for me even logged onto my google account, but the other link was good. And yea, that's a pretty cool/detailed map. Found a decent high res version to work with. I am not familiar with Greyhawk however and I think we should still burn-up the world itself for ourselves (or if everyone else knows/likes Greyhawk I can learn, ha!).

If we haven't heard from shughr by the end of today, we'll move forward exploring the Greyhawk city/Siege/Thieves Guild ideas, if that sounds agreeable?

Especially once we get going with the actual campaign, everyone please be sure to subscribe to the appropriate threads, and try to post at least once a day even if it's just to say, "I'm cool with whatever." or "I am busy the next day or two, move on without me."

Thanks guys, I'm excited for it!

I'll throw my hat in the ring as a replacement player should you need one in the future.

Zero experience with Grayhawk here. Siege/Thieves sounds great. For use if I fail to respond for a while: S R I N I v g P at gmail.

Shark_Bone, consider your hat hung on the rack with the others. If you want to participate in the campaign burning, feel free!

Thanks for the contact info, Epi.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByRkB5bFiVXWRE1ZZDc0blk0WXJlTlUwZ0RBM1lUajFYSVhN The Map link should work now.

Oh jeez, that is a sick map.

Yo! Sorry I didn't get into the discussion yesterday. I am very on board with a city based thieves guild campaign though. I don't know anything about Greyhawk, but I'd be willing to do some reading if anyone has a good setting summary to point me to.

Feel free to dm me if I'm awol for a day or two. I'm used to everything coming through my gmail inbox, so occasionally I'll forget to check here. I'm sure I'll get better at it though.

So, assuming a thieves guild campaign, what are we thinking for characters. Are we thinking of doing a traditional, sort of structured party? Or are we interested in exploring a central situation from a couple of different angles?

Thieves Guild in a city under siege. Actually under siege or just in and near war? Suppose actually under siege. Decisions include whether and how to help defend the city, whether to take advantage, whether/how to steal from the besiegers... I'm kinda feelin' some patriotic Thieves who are not welcome in their own city because they're, well, thieves, but who take it personally when some outsiders are threatening OUR city, and have certain infiltration skills because thieves though we can't work with the military out government proper, but still there are SUCH good opportunities within the city right now...

Not a problem, shug. Just trying to keep the early momentum going. Subscribing to this thread should send you an email tho when there's action.

Sounds like we're all down with the Thieves Guild and/or Siege/War. Works for me. I do want to draw a little finer focus on the city tho. Since most of us arent familiar w/ Greyhawk I figure we can either burn up the general culture, gov't, and what not ourselves, and I can fill in the details afterward needed to make it fly, or we settle on a setting familiar to us all that we can just drop the city into? Could be as simple as "it's early renaissance England (with the fantasy twist)", or "somewhere in Middle Earth" or "Westeros" or "insert common fantasy world here", what fits the theme and what excites you?

Epi, as for the entanglement of the Guild with the Siege/War, if we're mixing the two themes, I think there's room for some PCs to be one-way, some to be the other. But I want to start with something directly impacting all the PCs, we'll begin with a change to how your lives were of some sort. Maybe the Siege/War has caused a crack-down on "the Guild"?

RE: characters; I'm thinking 4 LPs, and you will definitely all know each other (entwined by a Belief each at the very least), I wouldn't presume a "traditional party structure" at this time, but "business associates" for sure - we'll figure out exactly how when we figure out the exact Conflict. Maybe you'll all be apart of the same family, maybe you're all in the same gang? Just keep in mind there are many types of thieves, from the muscle/thug, the sneak thief, the con man, the fence, and more, to any combination of the above.

Well Greyhawk was the default setting of 3rd ed D&D so I vote for "insert common fantasy world here". In the finest tradition of Burning THACO let me tell you the cool bits that form the skeleton of the Free City of Greyhawk and if you like them, we can flesh out the rest together.

Greyhawk is a free city belonging to no nation. If you have the coin and keep the peace, you are welcome in the city. It sits on the banks of a large river that feeds into an inland sea or great lake and so it is a center of trade with a easy water supplies. It is ruled by a Lord Mayor and the Oligarchs, a council of the rich and influential leaders of the City.

The city is walled and roughly bisected into thirds by internal walls. The lower third is for the poor. It is comprised of the Slum Quarter where only the desperate go, the Low Quarter, mainly laborers and menial tradesman, and the Thieves Quarter, where you are either a member of the guild or paying them protection money.

Head north through the manned gates into the middle third of the city and things get much nicer. This is the heart of the city where commerce flows. The River Quarter is where the cargo comes in off the river full of places catering to a sailor's needs with some nicer establishments for those wanting to slum in by the river. Clerkburg houses the colleges and sage of Greyhawk as well as the Wizard's Guild. The Artisan's quarter is where you find the fine craftsman and guildsman of the City and the Foreign Quarter is where you can find traveler's and ambassadors looking for a piece of home or where the natives look for something exotic.

Head north through the second wall and you are in the domain of the rich. The Garden Quarter is full of parks, shops, and restaurants catering to the well-to-do. The High Quarter is given over to the mansions and compounds of the truly wealthy. Atop it all stands the Citadel, the center of government and military might dating back to when Greyhawk was nothing more than a walled fort in the wilderness.

So if you all like it, we can hang all of our other ideas on that skeleton.

As for my character, he is basically a street thug and fence that chanced into learning just enough Spirit Binding magic to become useful/dangerous. Born City, Street Thug Lead to Outcast, Apt Pupil (from Magic Burner), Fence is the plan.

This all sounds great!

Couple of ideas I had for specific situations, though I'm not sure how we would all plug into any of these. Just thought I'd throw em out there.

After the first month of the Siege, a series of violent riots in Low Quarters--some virulent enough to spill into the River Quarter--convince the Oligarchs to take drastic measures: They negotiate an open alliance with the Thieves Guild to begin smuggling food and medical supplies into the city. Rumor has it that an army of Dwarves (who have traded profitably with Greyhawk for millenia) are marching to break the Orcish siege, but it remains to be seen whether the uneasy truce between the Guild and the Mayor will last even that long. There are mutterings among the Guild's rank and file that the Mayor is pushing to institutionalize the ancient brotherhood and incorporate it as a branch of his secret police. The Guildmaster hasn't been seen since the pact was finalized, and tensions are running high among the Council of Shadow...

The Orcs initial assault was too much for Greyhawks meager defenses to repel. Led by Guggnoc the Great One and her Black Summoner, the Orcish horde quickly overwhelmed the Low City, and were only held back from further incursion by the heroic, combined efforts of the City Guard and the Wizards College. In the bloody horror that followed, the Thieves Guild was forced to flee their hidden lair in the Low City. The Council of Shadows was scattered, with several members cut down by the Guggnocs Black Iron, and the Guildmaster hasn't been seen since. Now, members of the Oligarchy, and several prominent citizens are accusing the Guild of collaborating with the Orcish horde. If the siege doesn't break soon, or if the Guild cannot somehow turn the tide of public opinion, the thousand year history of the Thieves Guild may come to an ignominious end...

Magic: Spirit Binding only, or are there others? In particular we currently have no use for Gifted or Sorcery and the Wizard's College would just be Spirit Binders... I'm a fan of adding some/all of Enchanting, Death Art, and Blood Magic, especially if Orcs are in the mix. I'm ambivalent about vanilla Sorcery or Art Magic, definitely wouldn't personally burn a character using either, though a College of Magic strongly suggests Sorcery or Art Magic.

My ideas for a character include:
- having Connected trait including Orcish Circles
- spec'ing for Touch of Ages if Enchanting is included
- a traveling performer fronting for smuggling
- a "smoker" spirit binder (specialize in hiding people/groups)

My ideas for beliefs include:
- Everyone has a blind spot, I'll infiltrate the Orcs and poison their leader
- Power is always desirable, I'll convince the Elder Planner I should be acting Guildmaster by bringing the defectors back under our wing
- This war is our chance to prove our worth, I'll bring back the largest shipment of Blood Blossoms this city has ever seen!

I'm not sure I'm down with the Orcs having already overrun the Low City but still being held back by the Guard + Wizards, that seems too... immediate? Not so much a siege as "in the next 3 days either we win or die".

The Guildmaster is missing / hasn't been seen is excellent IMO.

As far as characters go, I'm considering a Crooked Cop type. City Born -> City Guard -> Seargant-at-Arms -> Guard Captain with the Corrupt trait. Before the siege, he made a comfortable living playing both sides in the perpetual cold-war between the Oligarchs and their police and the Thieves Guild. Now, with the politcal order of the Guild in upheaval he finds himself in no man's land, and desperate to keep his place in the order of things.

Possible Beliefs:

Ever since I broke his sister's jaw, that two-bit sneak thief Garry has had it out for me. I've got to keep the little bastard from spilling his guts to the Secret Police.

I know that (Epigones character) has big plans for the next supply run; I need to suss out his plan, so I can get in on the action.

The natives are getting restless in the Low City. Time to take out the boys and lay down a little Law and Order.

Or something along those lines.

And just for clarity, the above situation was just to get some particulars circulating. I'm not particularly invested in any of the details.

I definitely like the idea of entanglement of the Guild with the Rulers of Greyhawk. Maybe not an open alliance, but definitely back-door dealings, and thieves and rulers owing each other favors absolutely. The Guildmaster being missing is absolutely a good starting point for Conflict - the loose alliance that holds the Guild together is crumbling without him?

I'm still not sold on an all-out Siege going on right this moment, just because I would like to have the flexibility to take things outside the Walls a bit. Maybe open and heated war? And the roads are very dangerous for that reason, and there is little travel and few who brave going beyond he walls? There would of course be room for it to develop into a Siege. How do you guys feel about those two options? Siege/War

I was planning on their being Sorcery and Faith as well as Spirit Binding, nothing else. I'm uncomfortable with Spirit Bindomg as it is, and so don't want to take on another new Magic.

The character ideas and beliefs are looking good.

Agreed on nix siege, just war with possibility of later siege. Okay generic Sorcery, Faith, and Spirit Binding. For Sorcery, if there's no Enchanting, does that mean no Shunts, etc. available for purchase? Could make Sorcerers pretty difficult with the new "don't add Will" rules. FYI

I'm pretty sure I want to go with a spirit binding smoker. Is taking the Speaker of Names life path from the Codex okay?

Faith: with nature spirits around, I'd prefer gods to be powerful and few in number to distinguish the two very clearly. Like 1, 2, or a small pantheon of named gods.

Resource cycle feels like it should be at most 3 months.

Are there laws or restrictions in place because of the war footing? Special taxes, military immunity, curfew, conscription...?

We should figure out how the following entities stereotypically think of each other: Government, Military, Wizard's College, Spirit Binders, Thieves Guild. Or the important relationships and leave the rest for play.

RE: Shunts, I don't know what they are, but it sounds like essentially bonus die to a Sorcery roll? I guess that's why Spirit Binding seemed so powerful to me, has a bunch of ways to augment the roll...

I'm gonna stick to no Lifepaths from the Codex. Honestly didn't want to do any magics (or anything at all) from it, but am also excited to start exploring it - just don't want to stray to far from a "basic" Hub n Spokes game.

I think that's a great point RE: Faith and deities, doesn't sound like anyone was particularly interested in a Faith Lifepath, so it could be as simple as "the Light" and "the Dark", your basic good/evil dichotomy, if it's not gonna play too big of a roll for PCs. Let it define itself as we go?

RE: laws and war. I like the idea of special taxes, conscription and maybe even rationing? Other pain points could be the hardships not codified into law. General scarcity of durable goods and resources/restricted trade, families being separated, raids, etc.

RE: institutional relationships, things like the Gov't, Military, Mages College/Academia, the Faith, the Merchant-class, could all be political entities and for that reason be combative to some degree but also forced to work together to some degree. Spirit Binders would probably be heretic to the Faith, maybe respected but disliked cuz of "heeby-jeebies" reasons by all others? Maybe they're not even an organized group, I wouldn't think there'd be a lot of them...

Um, the life paths with Spirit Binding only exist in the Codex. So, how do you want to resolve that? If handling Spirit Binding is really going to be a problem, I can do without it. Just let me know what my options are.

It can be taken with General Skill points, right?

It can but if you read the Spirit Binding rules if the character doesn't have certain traits, such as Fey Blood, or Tainted Legacy, then every Spirit Binding test is at +2 Ob. Those traits are typically 4 trait points and the lifepaths that give you the option to take take them as lifepath traits for 1 trait point are in the Codex. So, if the rule is no lifepaths from the Codex, then I'll likely just pass on playing a Spirit Binder and come up with another concept.

If a spirit binder succeeds with 0 MoS, they take full Retribution. To actually avoid Retribution they have to have margin of success equal to the spirit's strength. So to bind a spirit of strength 5 for a test right now, the Ob would be 5+1=6, and to avoid all Retribution they'd need 11 successes.

If they fail, the GM's options are: give them nothing and take no Retribution; give them their intent and take higher-than-strength Retribution; give them their intent and take long-term regular Retribution.

Spending everything in service of Spirit Binding and Circination without the Codex lifepaths you can create an okay Spirit Binder... City Born is 4 general points, manage to get Will B6 and 4 extra trait points to spend on e.g. Fey Blood, make sure your lifepaths get you Astrology and 1-2 -wises relevant to Spirit Binding or Circination. Then start with Spirit Binding B5 and Circination B2 and buy a 1D domain with rps. You'll have no extra general points or trait points and be quite constrained as to what lifepaths you take, but you can routinely roll about 9 dice to spirit bind in your domains, which lets you safely bind a spirit of Strength 2, bind Strength 3-4 with no to moderate retribution, and in a pinch when you need help now and are willing to have a definite risk of failure and deal with the sizable Retribution later bind Strength 5-6.

That said, there is 1 lifepath in BWG with Spirit Binding: Weather Witch! Getting there in 4 lifepaths is even more constraining than the above plan, though. :D Still, I'd play Born City, Arcane Devotee, Rogue Wizard, Weather Witch.

I'll take a look at the Codex LPs when I get home today, at this time you may want to consider a back-up plan if you don't think it can be made to work using just the Core. I do remember reading through that list of Traits to negate the Spirit Binding "penalty" and thinking a lot of them sounded like they were only to be found in other Stock, but the list was also pretty long and I figured/hoped the "usual" Sorcerous LPs might have one (like Augur or Mad Summoner), didn't look into it tho... Isn't there a way to acquire such a Trait through play? I feel like I read something of that nature...

Beyond that though, there are many ways to get bonuses to the SB check, that the Sorcery skill has no analogue to, so my initial feeling is that it will remain no Codex LPs.

I apologize, but I really just don't feel comfortable with Spirit Binding (or even BWG) in the first place and the idea of opening up Codex LPs just makes me feel more unprepared. Again, I will look at the Codex LPs tho, and I do want you to be able to make the PC you want to play.

This was the option I was talking about not expecting. I'm not going to persecute you for being a spirit binder, I'm just going to make sure the seemingly substantial rewards weren't without risk.

np, first you feel comfortable.

Also, um, having looked into this now from the perspective of building a character, I feel more comfortable GMing for some spirit binders in my home game... :D

For reference, the spirit binding and Sorcery bonus dice comparisons look like this:
FoRKs: Both get Astrology, Spirit Binding gets -wises, Sorcery gets Symbology and Aura Reading.
Resources: spirit binding pays 7/25/45 for a geographically limited +1/2/3D and may make an offering for +1D, Sorcery pays 15 for a universal +1D that comes with one-arm armor, and has option to pay 10-20 for (or test to buy during play) certain other spell enhancements including +1D to resist tax.
Bonus dice: Spirit Binding gets Circination for a speculative +0D..+3D and can Carefully for +1D if time is limited (but limited time also gives +1 Ob). Sorcery gets Carefully for +0D..+6D limited by spell obstacle. Both depend on how long you want to take and how good you are.
Resisting Tax: Spirit Binding gets to put any extra successes into resisting Retribution, and/or gets to try drawing a Fortress circle. Sorcery gets their Forte ability.

All in all, total bonuses to Spirit Binding and Sorcery look fairly similar to me.

Actually I already have an alternative character without Spirit Binding that I am liking the sound of, so no need to go where you aren't prepared to go just for me. Basically a double agent, a thief that conned the City Guard into thinking he went legit and then joined them while feeding information back to the guild. Good place to be if the Oligarchs want back channel communication with the Guild.

Epigone: While all of that is true, I wanted to create a character that was thief first and Spirit Binder secondarily. As you showed, I can get the trait points and the skills if I game the system and take lifepaths like City Student but then I have to tack onto the end of the four lifepaths, "and then he joined the Thieves Guild for some reason not adequately explained". If I'm going to play a thief, I want at least some of the lifepaths to be thiefy. :)

I wasn't aware of these options (What's this one-arm armor thing?). But I thought Sorcery could only FoRK w/ Astrology.

It still seems like the Spirit Binding bonuses are very low-hanging fruit. Domain? We're playing in a pretty geographically constrained campaign - no risk in choosing City Domain, and going in on it hard, here. Perhaps it could be broken up into "Slums" and "Docks" and things, but still we know where we're gonna be. Offering? An in-game, RP thing. Circination? A couple skill points. That's a base +3-5 for very little mechanical-resource investment.

Anyway, if it turns out to be unworkable using the Core we can talk about other options. But your initial breakdown seemed like it was viable. Limited choices to get there, but doable.

OK, so looking back I see shughr is going the corrupt guard route and I presume that epigone is going to go spirit binder of some stripe, so I am going to go with the more social/skill rogue build. City Born, Pickpocket, Apprentice Artisan, Fence. Apprentice Artisan let's me pick up Locksmith, so I'm the boxman. You either bring me onsite to handle the locks for you, or bring me the locked box you swiped so I can open it and fence the goods for you while I'm at it.

All right, here's my spirit binder, capped at sorcerous skill of B5 due to not all characters starting with magic. m^2 let me know if you think these domains are too broad. I thought about what a City domain would do, and interestingly it has a major downside - a failure where you choose the long-term constant Retribution is very problematic in a broad domain.

Name and concept: Nulgha, born with the uncanny red eyes of an orc, failed sorcerer, eventually found her calling as a spirit binder on a Greyhawk smuggling ship. She is attracted to outcasts and those with power and that means the Thieves Guild.

tl;dr character sheet: Spirit Binding B5, Circination B4, 1D Affiliation with the Thieves Guild of Greyhawk, Fey Blood: Lynx-Eyed, Like Burning Coals, Aura of Fear

Beliefs (to be modified in response to others' beliefs and situation updates):
- This war is our chance to prove our worth, I'll bring back the largest shipment of Blood Blossoms this city has ever seen!
- Power is always desirable, I'll convince our Elder Planner I should be acting Guildmaster by bringing the defectors back under our wing
- Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. I'll scare Lord Heimart into dropping his proposal to audit and tax the Guild.

Instincts:
- Always hide my friends from notice when a job's ongoing.
- When I meet someone new, find out their superstitions.
- When they bring up my eyes, insult them.

Full character sheet: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwYx-fx5mJcaOW85Z3VNcTg2N2s
(http://charred.herokuapp.com/#/)

This is going to be great! I'll get some finalized beliefs and instincts together today.

Verrain, do you have an idea of what your characters relation to the situation will be? I'm imagining that your rogue and my guard have worked together in the past in some capacity.

Also, I'm sure that Nulgha's involvement will be of much interest to the Wizard's College...

Not sure yet. If Nulgha is angling for acting Guildmaster, then I think I'll have a belief about being a loyalist to the Guildmaster and backing his second to keep leading us. I am thinking of putting myself at odds with your third belief. If you are cracking down on the Low Quarter, then I will be trying to protect someone from the sweep. I agree that the guard and fence have had mutally profitable interactions in the past. I'm not sure where I stand on the Blood Blossom caper mainly because I don't know what a Blood Blossom is or what we'd have to go through to get them. But if it is the big score on the horizon, my guy would want in.

So I'm thinking for the immediate main conflict (around which you should structure a Belief), you three are either among seven (or so) of the Guildmasters "lieutenants" - or are the top 3 members of 1 gang out of 5 central gangs making up the Guild.

The Guildmaster (s/he?) has recently disappeared. And with the disappearance, the alliances that have held the Guild together for decades are falling apart. The Lieutenants have called a meeting of the heads of the "gangs" (families, or whatever) to discuss how to proceed. This is where the game will start.

We can structure the intrigues (RE: the war, the guild, and the Institutions of the city) around that?

A couple gangs want to end the Old Alliance and fragment the Guild, some want to salvage it, maybe some want to form new alliances with old institutions, some want to take the opportunity of the War to essentially pillage the city, some want to try to help it, and so on... Does this sound like a workable starting point? Is the conflict direct enough so that we can build Beliefs around it and know where we can go with it?

[edit: and obviously you've already started down this direction, but just wanted to state it as the big picture, and bounce the starting scene off you all]

Sounds like a good starting point for me. I'm fine with being the representative of the Fences at the Thieves Guild council.

Tweaked my character concept a bit to be a counterfeiter and smelter as well as a fence. Let me know what you think. Beliefs to come later.

Gord Male Human Age 33

Life Paths: Born City, Apprentice Artisan, Coin Clipper, Lead to Outcast, Fence

Stats: Will B4, Perception B4, Power B4, Forte B4, Agility B4, Speed B4
Health B4, Steel B4, Hesitation 6, Reflexes B4, Mortal Wound B10, Circles B2, Resources B2

Affiliation: Thieves Guild 1D

Skills:

Appraisal B3
Artisan-wise B2
Brawling B3
Counterfeiting B2
Falsehood B2
Guard-wise B3
Haggling B4
Inconspicuous B4
Locksmith B4
Persuasion B3
Streetwise B3
Whitesmith B2

Traits: Shrewd, Light Sleeper, Ear for Voices

Relationships: Roger, cousin in the City Guard; minor, family, hateful
Dulak, Engineer in the Grayhawk Mint; minor, forbidden

Gear, Possessions, Property:
Clothes, Traveling Gear, Shoes, Lockpick toolkit, Workshop, Armor, Gambeson, Run Of The Mill Quality

Social skills seem a little low for a social/fence? Though you do have B4 Haggling.

BTW, my choice of the name "Nulgha" was deliberately orcish.

Next beliefs iteration:
- This war is our chance to prove the Guild's worth to Greyhawk, I'll bring back the largest haul of Blood Blossoms this city has ever seen!
- Power is always desirable, I'll convince Gord to back my play for acting Guildmaster by discrediting Nicastro.
- Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. I'll scare Lord Heimart into dropping his proposal to audit and tax the Guild.

I'll put up the Game tonight with some basic starter threads, and send out invites.
And find yourselves some Avatars if you've not yet :)

Here is my first pass at beliefs.

- Word on the street is Nulgha is looking for Blood Blossoms. I will use my contacts to find the best source.
- The Old Alliance has kept this guild together since before living memory. I'll back Nicastro's play to keep the guild together.
- I've heard rumors of increased guard sweeps in the low city. I need to convince the guard to sweep away from my workshop.

Instincts:

Always Appraise anything I'm buying carefully and patiently.
Always have a lockpick on me.
When in public, move Inconspicuously.

Thinking more about how I want the game to go, I don't have a good picture for the whole Blood Blossoms haul thing. It's outside the city, roden-y rather than dwarfy or orcy, and sounds a lot more merchant-y than thief-y. (I'm assuming the war is mostly orcs biting everyone else still? And that there are dwarves?) But I do want a belief about a job, I think.

What about
- If the Guild can supply Greyhawk's taverns with good Dwarven Nog we'll be irreplaceable. I'll steal the Host's supply as they're leaving.

Part of the Dwarven Host, a roving patrol maybe of decent size, is currently camped outside the city but planning to move on. What do you think?

Your Blood Blossom Belief just says you'll bring back a big haul. Doesn't say anything about acquiring them legally. :)

I think the whole "Get thing City needs." will work in one of two scenarios. We try and corner the market on something important so that when the siege really starts, we're the only supplier, or we assume a trade blockade is already up and only we smugglers are brave/crazy enough to try and break it.

Ooh, okay, so the war's hot but Greyhawk's not under siege, right? And there's a nice river down to an inland sea with people to trade with? But no one ever said they're not under siege. So yeah, how about the brewers of Dwarven Nog (the ones actually willing to sell to humans) are in a city blockaded by orcs and their mercenaries, and like you said, only we smugglers are brave/crazy enough to try and break it.

- If the Guild can supply Greyhawk's taverns with good Dwarven Nog we'll be irreplaceable. I'll break the blockade of Chondite Keep and bring back the first shipment we've seen in seasons.

I'm into the idea of a blockade running situation. Niclas (my Guard) might be recruited to--or bully his way into--help bring that amount of goods through the canals without notice or without incurring punitive taxes.

Beliefs:

- Nulgha's got something big coming in from Chondite Keep. I need to get in on the action and will make Nulgha an offer (she? he?) can't refuse.

- The natives in the Low City are getting restless. Time to take out the boys for a little Law and Order.

- Ever since I broke his sweetheart's jaw, that two-bit sneak thief Garry has had it out for me. If his uncle Nicastro gains control of the Guild, I could be in big trouble. I've got to take care of him...discreetly.

Instincts:

- If things get touchy, hit first and hit hard.

- Never let anyone talk down to me or my boys.

- When meeting in private, always have an escape route ready.

shughr, I have some suggestions on your instincts to link them to Burning Wheel mechanics.

For your first, an instinct can't let you attack first but there is a way to hit hard. Always start fights in Aggressive stance. Of course, that assumes we use the Fight mechanics. Not sure how to do that in Hub and Spokes.

I tried a similar instinct to your third and the feedback I got was that you can't create an escape route that isn't there with an instinct, but you can make it automatic that you are looking for one. When meeting in private, always Assess for an escape route.

One simple way would be allowing a Speed versus test linked to whatever the fight roll was. Succeed and you get the drop on 'em for +1D, fail and your hastiness wrecks your form for +1 Ob.
I'm surprised at that feedback. I'd expect the instinct to be fine, but if the GM has already determined there is no escape route then there is not. If the GM hasn't, go ahead and test an appropriate -wise. Hopefully you have one or you're going to be Beginner's Lucking your way into an even scarier situation. :D Oh, and the Ob's higher if you want to know where the escape route is and how to use it rather than just "yep there's definitely a back alley somewhere up ahead I can duck into if, you know, I find it".

Thanks for the insight into the Instincts, Verrain.

shughr, let's work on refining your Beliefs a bit. Between your 1st and 3rd Beliefs, you're too obvious of an ally for Nulgha. I would like to see one of them running counter to one of his Beliefs (either the Nog grab, or the power play over Nicastro). [edit: Or, it doesn't have to run counter to one of his Beliefs necessarily, but at least just reflecting a separate ambition of your own.]

And I think your second Belief might benefit from being a little more focused. What are you seeking to achieve with the "Law and Order", prevention of riots? some scapegoats to parade in front of Heimart? actual justice for lawlessness?

Let me know your thoughts.

Epi, looking at your Instincts mentioned earlier, I'm trying to picture how they'd play out. If you're still working on them, that's cool, but otherwise wanted to just hash them out real quick.

Regarding "Always hide my friends from notice when a job's ongoing.", this seems to go a little outside the general "if/then", or "always", and "never" formats... and I think maybe it's the "ongoing" part that's hanging me up? Not sure. Maybe it's also the implied assumption of success on a skill test? I dunno. Is there a different way it could or should be worded?

And regarding "When I meet someone new, find out their superstitions.", please let me know if I'm imagining the implementation of this incorrectly, but I picture this as sort of just being an instinct to ask probing questions about the persons beliefs (in a non-game-mechanic sense), and while I guess I'm fine with the kind of bypassing of RP this connotates, it would essentially force you even in circumstances when it's not appropriate to ask such probing questions. Am I interpreting this incorrectly, or how are you envisioning this implemented?

Thanks for the feedback Emsquared. I'll give the relationship with Nulgha a think and try to update something new.

Regarding the second belief (and I realize this wasn't at all clear) Niclas is going down into the Low City to knock some skulls together and get people to fall in line. I'm trying to make this guy the worst cop imaginable. So he hears that there has been unrest, and his first thought is to go beat reandom people up in order to show em who's boss. Does that make more sense, at least as a character motivation?

For the mechanical part of both hide from notice and superstition I was aiming at a test even if retroactive when a) we're doing a job where concealment would be useful and b) when I want to say something about someone else's superstitions. For spirit binding and superstitions-wise respectively. I added the "on a job" and "meeting someone new" clauses to narrow the scope of the Instincts, but if you'd rather them without the narrowing that's fine too. :) My model was the "cast Turn Aside the Blade every morning" instinct. As for getting me into trouble, I was thinking the same you re: superstitions and wasn't planning to have the hiding regularly get me into trouble for Fate.

In retrospect it's not really the mechanical part about the "Always hide..." (that was me just having stared at Beliefs and Instincts too long), I feel like there's just a lot of ambiguity to it. What's a job? When does ongoing end? I maybe just wasnt sure about your expectations for triggers I guess, and if the trigger wasn't clear, seemed like there may be a better way to word the instinct, which I think should be very clear cut, no?

And RE: superstitions, I'm fine with that now, I was just over-thinking things by the end of the night.

shughr: makes sense to me as a character motivation, now ask "what would it take to get Persona from this belief?" and make that goal explicit. Maybe it's "... we'll rustle up some malcontents and make a lesson of 'em" with agreement that this means "soundly beat" rather than "kill messily"? Or maybe just leave it 'law and order' but let us (gm+players) know what you mean. :)

m^2: Cool, I'll tighten up that instinct. How about this?

- When thieving, always bind the spirits to hide our passage

Good way to put it, thanks Epi.
Sounds good, thanks!

Nailed it Epigone. "We'll rustle up some malcontents and make a lesson of 'em" is it!''

Regarding the first and third beliefs. I like the Thieves guild one, as it ties me into the main powerstruggle. I also don't think it necessarily makes me an ally for Nulgha, as Niclas isn't really interested in Nicastro himself. He's actually trying to protect himself in the even that Nicastro does come to power, by slyly removing the one person who has it out for him from play. Niclas has beef with Nicastro's nephew, not Nicastro. I'm still happy to revise it, if I need to make it clearer that I'm not trying to depose Nicastro.

I'm also happy to revise the Blood Blossoms belief to be more antagonstic towards Nulgha's aims. But I would also say that it is the one thing we're all working towards, and that doesn't actually seem like a problem to me. I know that player conflict is a big part of the system, but I don't think that it's a responsibility of the players to avoid congruent beliefs.

Regarding instincts (somehow I missed these posts a few days ago, sorry about that).

The hitting first instinct is meant to be a way to get in trouble and earn artha, not game the Fight! mechanic. In other words, if Niclas feels threatened or uneasy in a situation, his first instinct is going to be "headbutt this motherfucker." Whether or not that escalates to a full blown fight, or is resolved as a Bloody Versus or Speed test is up to the GM.

Regarding the escape route mechanic:
I agree with Verrains assesment here, but will of course defer to Emsquared on how he'd like to adjudicate it.

I think your Beliefs are generally oriented towards good subjects: 1 connecting you to the Big Picture, 1 connecting you to another PC, 1 for personal definition/ambition. But I feel like Beliefs are most interesting when used to entwine the PCs in a way that can't be undone but also to complicate the PCs relations. So I would like to see them focused towards those goals.

And, since the power struggle is the Big Picture conflict, I would like one of your Beliefs to be directly relating to that, I thought the cousin thing was your way of tieing in.

Further more you don't have to have a Belief directly relating to the Dwarven Nog (no longer Blood Blossoms), all you have to have is a Belief tieing you to needing Nulgha. That way he can say, "well if you help me with this, I'll help you with that."

OR if you have a Belief directly tieing you to the Nog Run, then it's most interesting as a relationship if you have a Belief in direct conflict with him so it's not just all sunshine and roses.

It is the responsibility of the GM to set up the most interesting story and situations, and Burning Wheel's Beliefs mechanic is purposefully designed to be directly implemented in creating those interesting situations.

Nulgha is set up to need you and/or Gord, as well as to conflict Gord. Gord is set up to need you, and conflict Nulgha. You are not set up to really need anyone, so you aren't conflicting w/ anyone you need. Does it make sense what we're trying to achieve, a kind of "love triangle" minus the love.

Regarding Instincts, they are meant to be tied to the mechanics. Structuring the "escape route" one as "I never go into a situation without looking for an escape route." Seems to fit more inline with examples, but whether you word it like this, or use Verrains interpretation there doesn't appear to be any mechanical difference, is there?

Regarding the other two, Epi was trying to help you get the most out of them, which in the case of Instncts is; bypassing a mechanic restriction. Neither of these two really do that, they certainly drive you to PC-defining RP situations, but they're like a Character Trait vs. a Die or Call-on Trait. And that's fine, but Epi was just trying to help.

shughr, we still need to lock down your Beliefs and Instincts before we can start.

First, I apologize, I thought your original Belief was to take out Nicastro. I misunderstood, and that's why I thought you were too obvious of an ally for Nulgha.

RE: your current iteration of Beliefs.
Two things: I'd like to see you a little more tied-in to the Big Picture conflict (the Thieves Guild power-struggle), and your 3rd Belief isn't really something you can turn into Artha, so I would recommend you change it.

Towards both those goals, what would you think about something more along the lines of: "The Old Alliance has failed me, with the strength of the Guard I will go into business for myself." Seems to fit the "i'll do anything if the price is right" spirit, and ties you directly into the main conflict. We'd have someone trying to keep the Old Alliance together, someone trying to take over the Guild (and possibly retain the Old Alliance, possibly not?), and someone saying "I can do this on my own."

Not a problem if something like that doesn't interest you just keep in mind, Beliefs can and should and will change as we play, but you probably want to try to turn them into their mechanical reward first. So, focus on tangible actionable Belief for No. 3.

OTOH that third belief is a fine Fate mine, very easy to turn into Fate artha, just not Persona. And after a bit of Fate it's a cinch for embodiment.

Or maybe I just wanna be able to dangle some cash dice in front of Niclas for a quick ally. ;)

Good point. And it could easily lead to something that would yield Persona if he wanted to. Feel free to disregard basically my entire previous post, shug >.<

Except for the Instincts part, still need those.

Thanks for all your participation and help everyone!