Burning Wheel Gold: Interest?

I'll throw my hat in the ring as a replacement player should you need one in the future.

Zero experience with Grayhawk here. Siege/Thieves sounds great. For use if I fail to respond for a while: S R I N I v g P at gmail.

Shark_Bone, consider your hat hung on the rack with the others. If you want to participate in the campaign burning, feel free!

Thanks for the contact info, Epi.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByRkB5bFiVXWRE1ZZDc0blk0WXJlTlUwZ0RBM1lUajFYSVhN The Map link should work now.

Oh jeez, that is a sick map.

Yo! Sorry I didn't get into the discussion yesterday. I am very on board with a city based thieves guild campaign though. I don't know anything about Greyhawk, but I'd be willing to do some reading if anyone has a good setting summary to point me to.

Feel free to dm me if I'm awol for a day or two. I'm used to everything coming through my gmail inbox, so occasionally I'll forget to check here. I'm sure I'll get better at it though.

So, assuming a thieves guild campaign, what are we thinking for characters. Are we thinking of doing a traditional, sort of structured party? Or are we interested in exploring a central situation from a couple of different angles?

Thieves Guild in a city under siege. Actually under siege or just in and near war? Suppose actually under siege. Decisions include whether and how to help defend the city, whether to take advantage, whether/how to steal from the besiegers... I'm kinda feelin' some patriotic Thieves who are not welcome in their own city because they're, well, thieves, but who take it personally when some outsiders are threatening OUR city, and have certain infiltration skills because thieves though we can't work with the military out government proper, but still there are SUCH good opportunities within the city right now...

Not a problem, shug. Just trying to keep the early momentum going. Subscribing to this thread should send you an email tho when there's action.

Sounds like we're all down with the Thieves Guild and/or Siege/War. Works for me. I do want to draw a little finer focus on the city tho. Since most of us arent familiar w/ Greyhawk I figure we can either burn up the general culture, gov't, and what not ourselves, and I can fill in the details afterward needed to make it fly, or we settle on a setting familiar to us all that we can just drop the city into? Could be as simple as "it's early renaissance England (with the fantasy twist)", or "somewhere in Middle Earth" or "Westeros" or "insert common fantasy world here", what fits the theme and what excites you?

Epi, as for the entanglement of the Guild with the Siege/War, if we're mixing the two themes, I think there's room for some PCs to be one-way, some to be the other. But I want to start with something directly impacting all the PCs, we'll begin with a change to how your lives were of some sort. Maybe the Siege/War has caused a crack-down on "the Guild"?

RE: characters; I'm thinking 4 LPs, and you will definitely all know each other (entwined by a Belief each at the very least), I wouldn't presume a "traditional party structure" at this time, but "business associates" for sure - we'll figure out exactly how when we figure out the exact Conflict. Maybe you'll all be apart of the same family, maybe you're all in the same gang? Just keep in mind there are many types of thieves, from the muscle/thug, the sneak thief, the con man, the fence, and more, to any combination of the above.

Well Greyhawk was the default setting of 3rd ed D&D so I vote for "insert common fantasy world here". In the finest tradition of Burning THACO let me tell you the cool bits that form the skeleton of the Free City of Greyhawk and if you like them, we can flesh out the rest together.

Greyhawk is a free city belonging to no nation. If you have the coin and keep the peace, you are welcome in the city. It sits on the banks of a large river that feeds into an inland sea or great lake and so it is a center of trade with a easy water supplies. It is ruled by a Lord Mayor and the Oligarchs, a council of the rich and influential leaders of the City.

The city is walled and roughly bisected into thirds by internal walls. The lower third is for the poor. It is comprised of the Slum Quarter where only the desperate go, the Low Quarter, mainly laborers and menial tradesman, and the Thieves Quarter, where you are either a member of the guild or paying them protection money.

Head north through the manned gates into the middle third of the city and things get much nicer. This is the heart of the city where commerce flows. The River Quarter is where the cargo comes in off the river full of places catering to a sailor's needs with some nicer establishments for those wanting to slum in by the river. Clerkburg houses the colleges and sage of Greyhawk as well as the Wizard's Guild. The Artisan's quarter is where you find the fine craftsman and guildsman of the City and the Foreign Quarter is where you can find traveler's and ambassadors looking for a piece of home or where the natives look for something exotic.

Head north through the second wall and you are in the domain of the rich. The Garden Quarter is full of parks, shops, and restaurants catering to the well-to-do. The High Quarter is given over to the mansions and compounds of the truly wealthy. Atop it all stands the Citadel, the center of government and military might dating back to when Greyhawk was nothing more than a walled fort in the wilderness.

So if you all like it, we can hang all of our other ideas on that skeleton.

As for my character, he is basically a street thug and fence that chanced into learning just enough Spirit Binding magic to become useful/dangerous. Born City, Street Thug Lead to Outcast, Apt Pupil (from Magic Burner), Fence is the plan.

This all sounds great!

Couple of ideas I had for specific situations, though I'm not sure how we would all plug into any of these. Just thought I'd throw em out there.

After the first month of the Siege, a series of violent riots in Low Quarters--some virulent enough to spill into the River Quarter--convince the Oligarchs to take drastic measures: They negotiate an open alliance with the Thieves Guild to begin smuggling food and medical supplies into the city. Rumor has it that an army of Dwarves (who have traded profitably with Greyhawk for millenia) are marching to break the Orcish siege, but it remains to be seen whether the uneasy truce between the Guild and the Mayor will last even that long. There are mutterings among the Guild's rank and file that the Mayor is pushing to institutionalize the ancient brotherhood and incorporate it as a branch of his secret police. The Guildmaster hasn't been seen since the pact was finalized, and tensions are running high among the Council of Shadow...

The Orcs initial assault was too much for Greyhawks meager defenses to repel. Led by Guggnoc the Great One and her Black Summoner, the Orcish horde quickly overwhelmed the Low City, and were only held back from further incursion by the heroic, combined efforts of the City Guard and the Wizards College. In the bloody horror that followed, the Thieves Guild was forced to flee their hidden lair in the Low City. The Council of Shadows was scattered, with several members cut down by the Guggnocs Black Iron, and the Guildmaster hasn't been seen since. Now, members of the Oligarchy, and several prominent citizens are accusing the Guild of collaborating with the Orcish horde. If the siege doesn't break soon, or if the Guild cannot somehow turn the tide of public opinion, the thousand year history of the Thieves Guild may come to an ignominious end...

Magic: Spirit Binding only, or are there others? In particular we currently have no use for Gifted or Sorcery and the Wizard's College would just be Spirit Binders... I'm a fan of adding some/all of Enchanting, Death Art, and Blood Magic, especially if Orcs are in the mix. I'm ambivalent about vanilla Sorcery or Art Magic, definitely wouldn't personally burn a character using either, though a College of Magic strongly suggests Sorcery or Art Magic.

My ideas for a character include:
- having Connected trait including Orcish Circles
- spec'ing for Touch of Ages if Enchanting is included
- a traveling performer fronting for smuggling
- a "smoker" spirit binder (specialize in hiding people/groups)

My ideas for beliefs include:
- Everyone has a blind spot, I'll infiltrate the Orcs and poison their leader
- Power is always desirable, I'll convince the Elder Planner I should be acting Guildmaster by bringing the defectors back under our wing
- This war is our chance to prove our worth, I'll bring back the largest shipment of Blood Blossoms this city has ever seen!

I'm not sure I'm down with the Orcs having already overrun the Low City but still being held back by the Guard + Wizards, that seems too... immediate? Not so much a siege as "in the next 3 days either we win or die".

The Guildmaster is missing / hasn't been seen is excellent IMO.

As far as characters go, I'm considering a Crooked Cop type. City Born -> City Guard -> Seargant-at-Arms -> Guard Captain with the Corrupt trait. Before the siege, he made a comfortable living playing both sides in the perpetual cold-war between the Oligarchs and their police and the Thieves Guild. Now, with the politcal order of the Guild in upheaval he finds himself in no man's land, and desperate to keep his place in the order of things.

Possible Beliefs:

Ever since I broke his sister's jaw, that two-bit sneak thief Garry has had it out for me. I've got to keep the little bastard from spilling his guts to the Secret Police.

I know that (Epigones character) has big plans for the next supply run; I need to suss out his plan, so I can get in on the action.

The natives are getting restless in the Low City. Time to take out the boys and lay down a little Law and Order.

Or something along those lines.

And just for clarity, the above situation was just to get some particulars circulating. I'm not particularly invested in any of the details.

I definitely like the idea of entanglement of the Guild with the Rulers of Greyhawk. Maybe not an open alliance, but definitely back-door dealings, and thieves and rulers owing each other favors absolutely. The Guildmaster being missing is absolutely a good starting point for Conflict - the loose alliance that holds the Guild together is crumbling without him?

I'm still not sold on an all-out Siege going on right this moment, just because I would like to have the flexibility to take things outside the Walls a bit. Maybe open and heated war? And the roads are very dangerous for that reason, and there is little travel and few who brave going beyond he walls? There would of course be room for it to develop into a Siege. How do you guys feel about those two options? Siege/War

I was planning on their being Sorcery and Faith as well as Spirit Binding, nothing else. I'm uncomfortable with Spirit Bindomg as it is, and so don't want to take on another new Magic.

The character ideas and beliefs are looking good.

Agreed on nix siege, just war with possibility of later siege. Okay generic Sorcery, Faith, and Spirit Binding. For Sorcery, if there's no Enchanting, does that mean no Shunts, etc. available for purchase? Could make Sorcerers pretty difficult with the new "don't add Will" rules. FYI

I'm pretty sure I want to go with a spirit binding smoker. Is taking the Speaker of Names life path from the Codex okay?

Faith: with nature spirits around, I'd prefer gods to be powerful and few in number to distinguish the two very clearly. Like 1, 2, or a small pantheon of named gods.

Resource cycle feels like it should be at most 3 months.

Are there laws or restrictions in place because of the war footing? Special taxes, military immunity, curfew, conscription...?

We should figure out how the following entities stereotypically think of each other: Government, Military, Wizard's College, Spirit Binders, Thieves Guild. Or the important relationships and leave the rest for play.

RE: Shunts, I don't know what they are, but it sounds like essentially bonus die to a Sorcery roll? I guess that's why Spirit Binding seemed so powerful to me, has a bunch of ways to augment the roll...

I'm gonna stick to no Lifepaths from the Codex. Honestly didn't want to do any magics (or anything at all) from it, but am also excited to start exploring it - just don't want to stray to far from a "basic" Hub n Spokes game.

I think that's a great point RE: Faith and deities, doesn't sound like anyone was particularly interested in a Faith Lifepath, so it could be as simple as "the Light" and "the Dark", your basic good/evil dichotomy, if it's not gonna play too big of a roll for PCs. Let it define itself as we go?

RE: laws and war. I like the idea of special taxes, conscription and maybe even rationing? Other pain points could be the hardships not codified into law. General scarcity of durable goods and resources/restricted trade, families being separated, raids, etc.

RE: institutional relationships, things like the Gov't, Military, Mages College/Academia, the Faith, the Merchant-class, could all be political entities and for that reason be combative to some degree but also forced to work together to some degree. Spirit Binders would probably be heretic to the Faith, maybe respected but disliked cuz of "heeby-jeebies" reasons by all others? Maybe they're not even an organized group, I wouldn't think there'd be a lot of them...

Um, the life paths with Spirit Binding only exist in the Codex. So, how do you want to resolve that? If handling Spirit Binding is really going to be a problem, I can do without it. Just let me know what my options are.

It can be taken with General Skill points, right?

It can but if you read the Spirit Binding rules if the character doesn't have certain traits, such as Fey Blood, or Tainted Legacy, then every Spirit Binding test is at +2 Ob. Those traits are typically 4 trait points and the lifepaths that give you the option to take take them as lifepath traits for 1 trait point are in the Codex. So, if the rule is no lifepaths from the Codex, then I'll likely just pass on playing a Spirit Binder and come up with another concept.

If a spirit binder succeeds with 0 MoS, they take full Retribution. To actually avoid Retribution they have to have margin of success equal to the spirit's strength. So to bind a spirit of strength 5 for a test right now, the Ob would be 5+1=6, and to avoid all Retribution they'd need 11 successes.

If they fail, the GM's options are: give them nothing and take no Retribution; give them their intent and take higher-than-strength Retribution; give them their intent and take long-term regular Retribution.

Spending everything in service of Spirit Binding and Circination without the Codex lifepaths you can create an okay Spirit Binder... City Born is 4 general points, manage to get Will B6 and 4 extra trait points to spend on e.g. Fey Blood, make sure your lifepaths get you Astrology and 1-2 -wises relevant to Spirit Binding or Circination. Then start with Spirit Binding B5 and Circination B2 and buy a 1D domain with rps. You'll have no extra general points or trait points and be quite constrained as to what lifepaths you take, but you can routinely roll about 9 dice to spirit bind in your domains, which lets you safely bind a spirit of Strength 2, bind Strength 3-4 with no to moderate retribution, and in a pinch when you need help now and are willing to have a definite risk of failure and deal with the sizable Retribution later bind Strength 5-6.

That said, there is 1 lifepath in BWG with Spirit Binding: Weather Witch! Getting there in 4 lifepaths is even more constraining than the above plan, though. :D Still, I'd play Born City, Arcane Devotee, Rogue Wizard, Weather Witch.

I'll take a look at the Codex LPs when I get home today, at this time you may want to consider a back-up plan if you don't think it can be made to work using just the Core. I do remember reading through that list of Traits to negate the Spirit Binding "penalty" and thinking a lot of them sounded like they were only to be found in other Stock, but the list was also pretty long and I figured/hoped the "usual" Sorcerous LPs might have one (like Augur or Mad Summoner), didn't look into it tho... Isn't there a way to acquire such a Trait through play? I feel like I read something of that nature...

Beyond that though, there are many ways to get bonuses to the SB check, that the Sorcery skill has no analogue to, so my initial feeling is that it will remain no Codex LPs.

I apologize, but I really just don't feel comfortable with Spirit Binding (or even BWG) in the first place and the idea of opening up Codex LPs just makes me feel more unprepared. Again, I will look at the Codex LPs tho, and I do want you to be able to make the PC you want to play.