How do we handle Distinctions (or alternatives)?

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Jan 12, 2025 3:06 pm
Context, branched from here:
https://gamersplane.com/forums/thread/35773/?p=1788595#p1788595
htech says:
OOC:
vicky_molokh says:
So it seems that the intent is to have three dice on most rolls (which lines up with keeping two dice for the sum and one for Effect). Am I misunderstanding something? Also, I have to admit that I don't quite understand Pride yet. It seems like such a specific and concerning emotion that I'm not sure where it would even be helpful. Overall, I find the mechanical principle of Pride and Problem harder to understand, including how it fits into the rest of the Cortex framework (is Problem similar to the Hinder SFX but without the compensation? does it retain the agency mechanic of Hinder?).
You're absolutely correct about the default Cortex rules. I enjoy using them in live games with Plot Points (PP), SFX, and all the related mechanics. However, I’ve found that those elements don’t work as well in PbP, so I’ve left most of them out. Apologies for any confusion caused by the similarities to but differences from the standard Cortex setup!

You’ve convinced me to revisit the default number of dice for rolls. I initially planned for 2 dice (especially for mundane skills) but, after reviewing the probabilities for 2 vs. 3 dice rolls, I agree that 3 dice should be the default. This aligns better with how the system is meant to be played.

That said, by removing PP and Effect dice, I’ve significantly altered the game’s balance. Mechanics like Hinder and its player agency don’t function the same way without them—some might argue it’s not even Cortex anymore. My initial workaround was to try to reduce most rolls to 2 dice and make Distinctions more specific. Each would represent both a strength (a "quality") and a flaw (a "defect"), without overlapping with skills or attributes.

Pride was intended as the quality, something very personal your character takes great pride in—an ability, a defining event, or something similar. However, I realize it may not be clear; English isn’t my first language, so I might not have explained it well.

Given all of this and that you convinced me that improvements are needed, I’m feeling a bit stuck on how to proceed. I want to remove Plot Points (PP) and SFX, but I also want to keep the core structure of attributes + skills + something unique to the characters. Do you have any suggestions? I’ll playtest some ideas in person, but I’d love to hear your thoughts if you have any recommendations.

Also, to clarify, Mana isn’t a replacement for PP as you might think. It’s more like Willpower Points in other games—it replenishes daily after a good night’s rest and doesn’t affect the story, create assets, or reward hindrances. The reason I added Mana is that, in this game, all PCs are competent spellcasters, so we won’t use the Mental attribute for magical rolls. Instead, those will use Magical Rank + School. Mana provides the "third die" for some rolls and acts as a soft cap on how many spells can be effectively cast per day.

Thank you for the feedback. I will likely post something IC tomorrow or on Monday for Zix.
vicky_molokh says:
OOC:
That's a lot to take in. I think it's probably best to break up this discussion into small chunks, and also move it out of the character creation thread of a single player and into some general thread for everyone to pay full attention to (and without the need to OOC-tag every post so much).
htech says:
OOC:
Sure! Can you do that? Nobody else is talking about rules or game design. Thanks!
What of the above is set in stone, what requires improvements and is open to feedback? Right now I'm mostly just confused about how the Pride and Problem dice are to be handled, how difficulty/opposition/whatever dice will be handled, how the self-balancing nature of Hinder is going to be replaced with the new mechanic, and unsure about the scopes of sets.

Can we please, if it's OK to ask, take a step back and get a small-step-by-small-step overview about how we want to handle our characters' more freely-defined characterisation and how it's meant to affect the sheets and gameplay?
Jan 12, 2025 3:47 pm
Quote:
What of the above is set in stone, what requires improvements and is open to feedback?
Set:
- No Plot Points or similar mechanics (Fate Points, etc). Mana will not be used to replace it, it has another purpose and mechanic.
- No effect dice. GM will handle the magnitude of the result based on what was happening, hitches, opportunities and the roll result (success/failure)
- Attributes and skills

May need improvements or to be removed, if we so decide:
- Distinctions, specially the Hinder mechanic

Let's table for later:
- Magic and Mana. We haven't used then yet, so I feel the players don't have enough information for this discussion.

Open to feedback:
- Everything else
Jan 12, 2025 4:15 pm
htech says:
May need improvements or to be removed, if we so decide:
- Distinctions, specially the Hinder mechanic
Here's what feedback I can think of focusing on this. Keep in mind that my familiarity with the system is superficial and theoretical, though influenced by experience in various other systems.

- Distinctions that fully cover all areas of competence are neat when they're meant to provide a consistent number of dice (i.e. the three-die default of Cortex).
- If Distinctions remain but become narrower (no longer covering everything a PC does), then suddenly we have a varying minimum dice number.
- If the Distinctions are removed entirely (without replacement), that consistently reduces the dice pool by one, which means that opposition dice pools should also be reduced by one compared to the system default.
- If we go with a two-die pool normally, we get way more Botches, giving the game a more of a comedic incompetence feel; whether that's fun or not is a matter of opinion.
- A two-die pool is also swingier than the already-swingy only-the-upper-end-of-dice-grows Cortex engine.
- Hinder is a useful self-balancing mechanic if Distinctions can sometimes be detrimental: it ensures that no Distinction's flaw is objectively worse than the other, by making sure there is a compensation for a flawed roll (1d4) and that the player has the ultimate authority over how often the flaw should manifest. It's OK to not have Hinder, but then the flaws (1d4 Distinctions, 1d4 uses of Problems &c.) become harder to make fair and feel balanced.
- Which is to say, removing Hinder is fine, but in that case it's probably better to either remove or redesign the hinderesque bad dice too.
- If the always-applicable Distinctions are to be replaced by the occasionally-applicable Pride die, it's best to get on the same page, with maximum clarity, about how broad the Pride should be. Because while I know perfectly well what that die would be about for my PC, it's hard to tell how the Prides between PCs will compare in terms of opportunities to shine.

What do you think about those considerations?
Jan 12, 2025 4:49 pm
vicky_molokh says:

Can we please, if it's OK to ask, take a step back and get a small-step-by-small-step overview about (...) how it's meant to affect the sheets and gameplay?
Sure! My original idea was:

0. A roleplaying game is a conversation. The Gamemaster describes the scene, you describe how your PCs behave, the GM describes how any NPCs react, you reply, and it goes back and forth. That is how the story is told and progresses. But sooner or later, a decisive situation will arise, a point of no return, a conflict that conversation alone cannot resolve. In this case, the GM thinks about interesting results for success and failure and asks you to roll the dice.

1. You choose Dice Sources:
1A. For regular skills (tests, combat, etc)
=> Always used: Attribute + Skill
=> If applicable: Distinctions (or only Pride, if we drop the mechanical effects of the Hinder/Problem) + Gear + Spell like abilities + Feats + Relationship bonus + Conditions/temporary bonus

1B. If magic is involved:
Roll Magical Rank Die + School skill + Mana (if spent). Mundane traits don't apply. All of the PCs are capable spellcasters (after a few lessons, of course), but they specialize in different schools of magic.

2. Set Difficulty/Opposition:
GM rolls a dice pool or sets a static difficulty.

3. Evaluate the results:
Set aside hitches and opportunities. (ie. "1"s) Use the two highest remaining values from each side (player vs GM) to determine if the player succeed or not.

4. Change the fiction
The GM will describe the results (ie. how the scene/situation changes). Failure must not stop the story completely. Even when you fail, there must be a way forward.

4A. If applicable, PCs or NPCs may receive a temporary bonus, injury or complications that will affect their next or subsequent rolls.
Jan 12, 2025 4:58 pm
vicky_molokh says:
What do you think about those considerations?
I completely agree. =)
vicky_molokh says:
Because while I know perfectly well what that die would be about for my PC, it's hard to tell how the Prides between PCs will compare in terms of opportunities to shine.
I tend to deal with "unbalanced" opportunities to shine differently in PbP, so for that medium I think it's less of an issue...

I use multiple threads, simultaneous scenes, or individual prompts. I can't handle this in a real-life situation, but since PbP is asynchronous, I can work with all the PCs at the same time. It's not like there's a single "spotlight" / GM's focus here. =)

What do you think?
Jan 12, 2025 6:15 pm
htech says:
vicky_molokh says:
What do you think about those considerations?
I completely agree. =)
In light of that, what will the sheet be like? Am I to replace Distinctions with a single Pride? If yes, is the Problem a 'diced' thing? If we stick to Distinctions, what is their supposed scope and how should I rewrite them to fit your vision (it might be good to describe the intended breadth in a way that can be compared to Attributes and/or Skills)?
vicky_molokh says:
Because while I know perfectly well what that die would be about for my PC, it's hard to tell how the Prides between PCs will compare in terms of opportunities to shine.
I tend to deal with "unbalanced" opportunities to shine differently in PbP, so for that medium I think it's less of an issue...

I use multiple threads, simultaneous scenes, or individual prompts. I can't handle this in a real-life situation, but since PbP is asynchronous, I can work with all the PCs at the same time. It's not like there's a single "spotlight" / GM's focus here. =)

What do you think?[/quote]
I was thinking mostly in terms of handling in a joint narrative (i.e. while the party isn't split), which would presumably fall under the individual prompts section.
Jan 12, 2025 7:45 pm
As someone who has no experience with Cortex, I feel like I'm missing something. How does Hinder work in the normal ruleset?
Jan 12, 2025 7:47 pm
Eltesla says:
As someone who has no experience with Cortex, I feel like I'm missing something. How does Hinder work in the normal ruleset?
In the normal ruleset, each Distinction can have either the normal helpful effect (1d8), or a hindering effect (gain a Plot Point but use a d4 instead of a d8 on it). The latter, Hinder, is an SFX the player can activate when it seems appropriate. But we don't have Plot Points in this campaign, and (I think) no SFX.

Note that my knowledge is limited.
Jan 12, 2025 8:46 pm
I see. Well, without Plot Points, the Hinder aspect of Distinctions does seem to be pointless, but I don't think Distinctions should be removed entirely, if only to avoid homogenizing the characters too much.
Jan 12, 2025 8:50 pm
Mechanically, Distinctions in the standard system are more of a neat description than a mechanical differentiator, at least until SFX get involved, since you're supposed to always roll one and exactly one of them, and they're 1d8 unless you activate Hinder.

So dehomogenising has to be done in some other way.
Jan 13, 2025 12:12 pm
Quote:
In light of that, what will the sheet be like? Am I to replace Distinctions with a single Pride? If yes, is the Problem a 'diced' thing?
Yup. I have changed Zix's sheet, by removing the Distinctions and adding the pride to the "Other traits" section, so we can evaluate that. What do you think?

If you agree, I will update everyone's else, posting individual explanations in their threads.
Jan 13, 2025 4:17 pm
htech says:
Quote:
In light of that, what will the sheet be like? Am I to replace Distinctions with a single Pride? If yes, is the Problem a 'diced' thing?
Yup. I have changed Zix's sheet, by removing the Distinctions and adding the pride to the "Other traits" section, so we can evaluate that. What do you think?

If you agree, I will update everyone's else, posting individual explanations in their threads.
OK, so the Pride is handled, looks good. But I'm still unsure about the Problem question.
Jan 13, 2025 7:21 pm
Quote:
But I'm still unsure about the Problem question.
I usually won't use dice for this. Considering the PCs and from what it looks like so far, roleplaying might be more than enough =)
Jan 13, 2025 7:36 pm
Cool. Because yeah, I imagining Zix's for being more about behaviour than about numeric penalties.

Can't speak for others' PCs on their behalf, of course. BTW, would would you (everyone) think about having an OOC thread for discussing the party, the interactions, the setting - all the general stuff that concerns more than one player but should probably not clutter the IC threads with big OOC-tagged sections?
Jan 13, 2025 9:03 pm
I don't know the system in practice yet, just from reading up a little. So I am kinda OK with any choice made on how to handle things.

A general OOC thread canvwork to balance the party. I have been refraining to read other threads, as the surprise of discovering everyone is also interesting.

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