Vignette #2 Planning session

Len

Feb 9, 2017 8:04 pm
Hey Jabes and Ezeriah,

I'm going to be taking a short break from DMing, but I want to get the next 5e vignette started reasonably soon (1-2 weeks). I was hoping to get you guys in on the planning.

By the way: Jabes, meet Ezeriah. Ezeriah, meet Jabes. You are both people who have been really helpful to me as a first time PbP DM, are both really great role players, and are of like minds in terms of our RPG gaming style.

Jabes, just so you know how Ezeriah is connected to this, he PMed me about Vignettes and had a bunch of advice for me. I forget who suggested it, but he became a silent partner in Vignette #1 and gave me oodles of good feedback on things and showed me how he runs his game. So, he knows the events of the first Vignette.

So, what kind of game do you want to play in? Ezeriah, you mentioned you like grittier games for example. What other preferences do you two have? Genres, tropes, anything at all, really. Maybe you've been jonesing for a pirate-themed game or a low-fantasy zero magic campaign, I don't know. But if you let me know and I'll work with you to create not just my game, but OUR game. Vignette #2 does not have to have anything to do with #1, although it could if you wanted it to.

One constraint: I'd like to keep this game focused on a single event with a definite end point to keep the length of the game short. In other words, it still has to be a vignette, not a campaign.

So, what are your thoughts?
Feb 9, 2017 8:38 pm
Hi Ezeriah! Len, thanks for inviting me!

I'm down for pretty much anything, really, but now that you mention it, something I've never tried before would be fun! As it happens, pirate-themed and low-fantasy zero magic bith fit the bill.

I'm not opposed to the idea of connecting Vignette #2 to the first one. In fact, I wouldn't mind playing Torden again (though obviously he would not be viable in a zero-magic setting).

All in all I'm really open to pretty much anything! I'd love to hear your thoughts!
Feb 9, 2017 8:38 pm
I'm interested, but pressed for time at the moment on being able to talk about it. Low fantasy is my absolute favorite in the fantasy setting, a la Conan, or Game of Thrones. Fantastical magic and such just ultimately turns the game into a magic fest at higher levels, and the non-spellcasters are just a sideshow. To quote something I've heard/read in a few places over the years: "Wizards of the Coast just hates non-spellcasters, and Gary Gygax did too."

There's just something far more interesting about needing a torch, and not being able to snap your fingers and bring light into the dark.

That's the short version, and as Len has probably figured out, I'm interested in a Low-Fantasy game being set up already.
Feb 9, 2017 8:45 pm
My very first PC was a half-elven fighter-magic user (AD&D, Greyhawk setting) and while I enjoyed that immensely, in the decades since then I've tended to play non-casters. It wasn't until I joined this community last year that I started exploring magic-use. I must say I still prefer non-casters or characters for whom magic is limited or costs a lot (I'm looking at you, Elric of Melnibone).

What do you guys think of Dark Sun? I've never tried it.
Feb 9, 2017 9:20 pm
Dark Sun was cool, but just subbed psionics for magic. And Elric... holy shit. Read the first three books when I was 11 or 12. Awesome. A wonderfully flawed junkie of an anti-hero.

Len

Feb 10, 2017 12:25 am
Ezeriah, feel free to join in on this discussion when time is better for you. I am not planning to start the game for a couple of weeks.

Thanks to both of you for the ideas so far!

So, sounds like gritty low-fantasy is the way to go. So how does that look in 5e D&D? Do we ban all non-human races? Do we ban all spellcaster classes and subclasses? And monk, since their abilities are very spell-like? If we ban that all, that leaves us with Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues. Through feats and multiclassing, and maybe a bit of reskinning, I think we can create a reasonable variety of characters from three classes (we can bring in the SCAG subclasses) and one race.

About Dark Sun: that setting is super deadly, at least in In AD&D 2nd ed. Character death is par for the course; the campaign sourcebook specifically states that Dark Sun characters must start at level 3 because no 1st or 2nd level character would stand a chance. Gear is terrible and there were mechanics for it breaking constantly. You are just trying not to die. But as Ezeriah says, it's still pretty High Fantasy.
Feb 10, 2017 12:33 am
Maybe a no-magic world doesn’t necessarily preclude the non-human races, although they would have to be stripped of innate spellcasting abilities (and maybe given different ones in exchange?)

Len

Feb 10, 2017 2:33 am
Yeah, I mean, it depends on how low fantasy we're talking, right?
Feb 10, 2017 2:40 am
There are of course a myriad of ways to go about it. As a DM, my standard game world for most of my gaming days was one wherein all classes and the standard PHB races were offered. Magic items were extremely rare. Fighters were happy to find +1 swords, and were still using them at 8th plus levels. I always felt that once you handed away too much magic, it just got harder and harder to make the game fun and remotely challenging.

An extreme example of the opposite was a Rogue I played once. By the time he was 5th or 6th level, he had a ring that let him see in the dark like truesight up to 120 feet. The Cloak of the Bat, allowing him to turn invisible, and fly. Boots of Silence. Magic sword, Dagger of Throwing. A couple of rings of something or another. Amulet of something something The DM gave it away like candy it seemed. And I got bored really fast. In the end, my thief skills didn't matter. All that mattered was the gear I collected. The fighter in our party didn't wield his sword. He let it dance and fight for him, a la the Dancing Sword. Our mage didn't need spells. He had a Staff of Fireballs, a Wand of Lightning, a Robe of the Archmage. Everything was easy. Again, this is an extreme example. After a couple of months of this, I was DMing again.

And that's the problem with magic. Sooner or later it just overshadows everything else. And players and DM's can believe that the classes are balanced, but they're not. At the later levels, and even earlier because of the overhaul that is 5e (I like it, don't get me wrong; it's simplicity is great), spellcasters are just exceedingly powerful when compared to non-casters. Just take a look through a universal spell list like donjon. Sooner or later, it's clear as day: the non-casters need the spellcasters. At the highest levels it's always coming down to magic, and it gets dull.

At this stage in my gaming preferences, I'm looking for something dark, grim. Not an evil world where everyone is a murder hobo, but one wherein skill and toughness matter more than some spellcaster casting Rope Trick and waiting for the monsters to get bored and wander off, confused.

Part of it goes with what Len said. The multiclassing will evolve into hybrid characters that are essentially a different class in their own right. I think you can keep the other races, but only if you dump everything that touches on magic: darkvision, hellsih rebuke, halfling luck rerolls, etc. Ultimately, I think it works better if you dump all the non-human races, and use different races within human, from the PHB. Also, to enrich a world that doesn't have magic, change character generation a bit. I'm all for point buy, but give everyone more points to spend. 6 extra would be the same as the +1 to all that already exists, but it gives the players a little more agency in spending the points. And let everyone start with two feats, as long as they fit the game world (e.g., not Mage Slayer, or Magic Initiate).

Dump all of the magic and magic classes, and magic archetypes, or anything that resembles magic. I think the DM, however, would have access to characters that can use magic, although they would be extremely rare, and powerful, likely archenemies in time, or key villains. Keep the creatures from the monster manual, but be smart as the DM and use the ones that the players can overcome with non-magical resourcefulness. Overcoming those challenges will be all the greater. Instead of wasting that vampire with fireballs and holy avenger swords, the players (wisely!) snuck the hell into its lair during daylight, overcame whatever it was to get to his coffin, and staked the bastard in the heart. And to do so, they 'held him down' when he awoke, in the coffin, with a holy symbol that's only purpose was to ward off evil. And the players had to go on a whole quest just for that.

Keep the rituals. Accessed only with the Ritual Caster feat. As the DM, choose the rituals that exist in your world. You control the access to what can even be cast. Create a simple home brew on how long it takes to cast them, rather than a generic 10 minutes. Change some spell levels. Maybe the level of rituals you can cast is equal to or less than your INT or WIS modifier. No matter how you do it, this keeps a touch of magic in your world, and keeps it more unique, rare, and special. Magic is more of a long lost art, a science in a way. Something that can be learned by anyone, with some practice. The key here is that nobody is dumping fireballs all the time, teleporting at the drop of hat, blinking around, shooting magic missiles, etc etc etc. If everything is a ritual, and you trim down what is available, heavily, magic is just way cooler. Suddenly you have a quest, to find a ritual, and it could be a Knock spell. The best part is this: it's a Knock spell that only works on one door, but you need it.

And players that start with the Ritual Caster feat, well, the DM can have a short list of more 'common' rituals that those practiced in the arts have passed down. Rituals practitioners might be few and far between, but they are out there. Now your backstory just has to make sense. Spells like Guidance, Produce Flame, Bless, Protection from Evil, etc. If it cold work as a ritual, call it a ritual. Just don't get silly with it.

And maybe those characters might find the occasional rare bit of magic as an item. The entire world doesn't have to be non-magical, just make it rare, wherein even the simplest magic items are a wonder and a mystery. In D&D, when the players get a ring of invisibility, it's great, but nothing amazing. In Lord of the Rings it is practically a one of a kind item, and there aren't Wizards and Arcane Trickster Rogues everywhere going "Pfft. Big deal. I can do that at 3rd level."

D&D is great, but the magic just gets silly. And to each their own. For me, I want some tension in my adventure, some real drama.

Len

Feb 10, 2017 8:02 am
Hey Ezeriah, those are some interesting ideas and I think that would be a pretty fun game to play in. You sound really passionate about it.

To be honest, for a short game like the one I'm proposing, I'm probably not going to need to modify the core game of 5e very much beyond restricting certain races and classes. A campaign would be a different story.

Thanks for clearly conveying your expectations. That's definitely a game I can run.

Len

Feb 10, 2017 8:40 am
Man, that's got me thinking... How cool would be to play a campaign where the PCs sought to bring about the end of magic forever?
Feb 10, 2017 2:36 pm
Now there's an idea! Or the reverse: magic is all but extinguished from the world, and the PC's work to preserve the last spark or else it is gone forever.
Last edited February 10, 2017 2:36 pm

Len

Feb 10, 2017 4:05 pm
Hmm, interesting Jabes!

Len

Feb 10, 2017 7:05 pm
Random fact: awhile ago, I made a website to generate magic weapons & armor that are weaker than a +1 weapon to support low fantasy. The armor is outdated but the weapons are pretty solid.

Len

Feb 10, 2017 7:19 pm
On Flavors of Fantasy from the DMG, pg 38:
Quote:
Sword and Sorcery

A grim, hulking fighter disembowels the high priest of the serpent god on his own altar. A laughing rogue spends ill-gotten gains on cheap wine in filthy taverns. Hardy adventures venture into the unexplored jungles to search for the fabled City of Golden Masks.

A sword-and-sorcery campaign emulates some of the classic works of fantasy fiction, a tradition that goes back to the roots of the game. Here you'll find a dark, gritty world of evil sorcerers and decadent cities, where the protagonists are motivated more by greed and self-interest than by altruistic virtue. Fighter, rogue, and barbarian characters tend to be far more common than wizards, clerics, or paladins. In such a pulp fantasy setting, those who wield magic often symbolize the decadence and corruption of civilization, and wizards are the classic villains of these settings. Magic items are therefore rare and often dangerous.
I think this is a good label for the type of game we're steering towards, although perhaps more on the dark side than the pulp side of things.
Feb 10, 2017 8:43 pm
Len, I came across your website before! Nifty! :-)
Feb 10, 2017 10:44 pm
lenpelletier says:
On Flavors of Fantasy from the DMG, pg 38:
Quote:
Sword and Sorcery

A grim, hulking fighter disembowels the high priest of the serpent god on his own altar. A laughing rogue spends ill-gotten gains on cheap wine in filthy taverns. Hardy adventures venture into the unexplored jungles to search for the fabled City of Golden Masks.

A sword-and-sorcery campaign emulates some of the classic works of fantasy fiction, a tradition that goes back to the roots of the game. Here you'll find a dark, gritty world of evil sorcerers and decadent cities, where the protagonists are motivated more by greed and self-interest than by altruistic virtue. Fighter, rogue, and barbarian characters tend to be far more common than wizards, clerics, or paladins. In such a pulp fantasy setting, those who wield magic often symbolize the decadence and corruption of civilization, and wizards are the classic villains of these settings. Magic items are therefore rare and often dangerous.
I think this is a good label for the type of game we're steering towards, although perhaps more on the dark side than the pulp side of things.
Oh yeah, that about hits the nail on the head. And that's a pretty cool item generator as well.

Len

Feb 11, 2017 3:12 am
Wow, have you heard of Primeval Thule? It's a 5e campaign setting for sword and sorcery games and it looks amazing. I remember this when it came out on kickstarter but at the time I was DMing 2 nights a week and didn't have any headspace to give it much thought.

I'm not sure on the legality of this link but I'm pretty sure i will buy the pdf anyway. It's the pathfinder version but the setting info is all the same. I had to open it in an app on my phone so it may or may not work for you.

Also, this research into sword and sorcery is opening some powerful nostalgia vibes. This is my teenage experience with fantasy, and I can't wait to run it.
Feb 11, 2017 10:23 pm
lenpelletier says:
Also, this research into sword and sorcery is opening some powerful nostalgia vibes. This is my teenage experience with fantasy, and I can't wait to run it.
Yeah, I read a lot of Conan when I was a kid; the black and white graphic novels (more like a magazine size comic book), the regular comics. I always liked how magic was pretty much a tool of the villains, and the main character(s) had to overcome the strangeness/darkness of it to achieve their goals.

Thule itself looks like it borrows heavily from Conan, especially with the religious pantheon (Set, Mithra, etc). Not that that's a bad thing. It's great to see it fleshed out for a game.

Len

Feb 16, 2017 12:05 am
Hey guys, I've been doing a ton of reading, filling the 'brain attic' as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle might say. Things are ballooning into awesome, out of control ideas which might be good or terrible, or at least potentially incompatible with your interests, so I wanted to get a reality check with you guys.

While still staying true to the ideas about grim, gritty adventures and Sword and Sorcery tropes, I'm thinking of running a 5e version of Isle of Dread. This would be a sandbox exploration game with open-ended goals and extensive player agency. Isle of Dread is a classic adventure from 1981 that has a very Sword and Sorcery feel, and I think it could work really well in the PbP medium. There's just something about that old fashioned adventure style that fits so well with Sword and Sorcery. And, it's scope is still pretty tight so it won't turn into an endless campaign, but it would definitely be more than a vignette. In addition, there was a playtest version for D&D Next, which isn't perfectly compatible with 5e but is close enough that it'll only take minor tweaks.

So have I gone of the deep end or are you guys still interested?
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