OOC Thread

Aegar's turn. Kit and Iman, go ahead and take your round actions in advance. Kit, I should note you are no longer grappled as the tentacle attacked a different target.

Barennd, I just noticed this: when you are dual wielding weapons, you aren't supposed to add your Strength modifier to your damage on the second hand's attack. It's just 1d6. Don't worry about changing any posts or anything, just mentioning it for the future :)

Noted thanks

Would doing an arcana check count as an action, or can I just do it with Kit's advantage? I'm gonna post as of the answer was yes, I'll delete it if it's no.

Len needs to rule on it, but for what it's worth, this is my take. Typically, a skill check doesn't use an action. I would consider it an interaction with an object, which you get one free each round. However, I would be less inclined to allow people giving advantage for free. So my ruling would be that Kit has to use hia action to give advantage, but Pageflap does not to make an Arcana check.

How does that sound to you, Len?

I'll edit it however you want if it goes against the rules, Len.

On an unrelated note that I meant to ask a while back, are we gonna go with Celestial being Spanish now?

It would take an action, yes. This falls under "Improvising an action" on p. 193 of the Player's Handbook where it gives many examples of using an action to do skill checks: breaking down doors (athletics), intimidating enemies (intimidation),sense a weakness in a magical defense (arcana), or calling for parley with a foe (persuasion). If skill checks were free actions, players would just spam intimidation checks every round, and so would every monster!
"That squiddy thing seems to pulse brighter when magic is used! What do you make of it?" makes for great dialogue but does not warrant the Help action. You're just pointing out the obvious and asking for his opinion. If you walk into the doctor's office and say "Hey Doc, look at this bump on my head, what do you think?" It doesn't make the doctor any better at diagnosing what's wrong with the bump, it just gets him started on his investigation.

I think Kit should leave it as flavourful dialogue, and Pageflap just does a regular arcana check. As you suggested, use Kit's action to cast Dancing Lights or something else - your call :)

Makes sense. I'll delete the post and do the check next round, or just edit it to just internal thoughts.

Celestial = Spanish? I think Starrbeardo established that Barendd speaks in Spanish when he has suffered a concussion, which is just 'gibberish' in this world. I don't think he's talking in Celestial exactly. Or maybe he is? Plot twist - Barendd is a demigod!

No need to delete it. We can let the first roll stand, since it would have been what you would have rolled without advantage. As it turns out, that roll was great and didn't really need advantage anyway :)

@Jacketch: actually I should give you the choice ... do you want this to stand as your action for next round? (it would have to be, since you have already taken casting your awesome ice knife spell this round). Or do you want to do something else?

@lenpelletier: Actually yeah, make that my move for round 4. It'd be a shame to waste that roll. Thanks!

I forgot about that Improvise an Action biz. You're right, I can see how allowing free skill checks can be abused. Although I'm now thinking of a new multiclass barbarian/cleric (if the DM allows the "skills with different abilities" variant) or bard/cleric (if the DM does not). He'll intimidate you as his action and smash you with his Spiritual Weapon as his bonus.

This is a good lesson for new players, too. Even if someone knows all the rules, it doesn't mean they know all the rules. A lesson I learned in my RL group with a DM who doesn't know the rules as well as he thinks and gets angry when the players correct him. He carried the latest argument over into a second session two weeks later, even though he had been shown (by a WoTC ruling) that he was wrong. He agreed the rule should be applied as the game designers stated, but he wanted us to acknowledge that he was still right in his interpretation of the rules as written and that the designers had to ignore that in order to come out with a ruling that fixed their mistake. Luckily, he's no longer the DM.

Len, what level of interaction would you require for Kit to help on an Arcana check? If your answer is "none, he's not proficient," I can get behind that. But if you're going to the doctor for a physical, he's not going to check out that obvious bump on your head unless you point it out to him! I would argue that the physical is the perception check (a high enough roll and the bump will be noticed) and pointing out the bump is the advantage-giving help (increases your chances to figure out what's up with this bump). I mean, Pageflap got a 22, so I'm happy to cast dancing lights and let him have at it on his own. But since you have said you require a certain level of justification for the help action, for future reference what would it have taken in this instance? Well, short of going right up to the thing, because Kit was certainly not going to do that!

I was internally conflicted when I said 'no' to the Help action. McDunno is just trying to push the story forward AND put another character in the spotlight at the same time. What a fabulous use of his action! A DM could have easily ignored the 'improvised action' rules and put the story / fun first.

But, I decided to put the rules first on that one. Help actions are a bit of a 'bee in my bonnet' right now, and I sometimes see it abused (and have abused it myself!) in other games. So, I'm being a stickler for the rules there. This is especially true out of combat.

Another problem with the Help action (especially in combat) is that it takes away a bit of player choice. Although Pageflap can ignore the Help action, as people we feel obligated to honour another person's action. So, Pageflap's turn has been dictated by Kit's actions. I'm sure this was not McDunno's intention, and maybe it wasn't even the case in this instance, but it COULD be a problem.

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HELP ACTION GUIDELINES

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Helping Attacks: A character using the Help action to grant advantage to another character's attack roll is mostly fine. Add some justification: distracting, feinting, flanking, etc. However, there will always be edge cases. Can a tied up character provide Help to another player defending him? Can a wizard's raven familiar aid him on a spell attack? We'll handle these on a case-by-case basis, and probably depends on the ingenuity of the Helper as they describe their Help action.

Helping Skill Checks: A character needs to bring some new, relevant information or a useful asset to the situation in order to help. It may require a skill check of your own.

Example: The barbarian is knock a door down. The paladin with strength 16 said "I'll help knock it down too" and I'll probably be fine with it because of common sense. If the scrawny gnome wizard said "I'll help." I'll probably ask "how?" If he says he's putting his adorable little shoulder to the wall side-by-side with the barbarian, I'll disallow the help action. But, if the petite wizard wants to analyze the door for a weak spot, I'd let him roll an investigation check. If he passed, he could tell the barbarian where to strike it, and i'd grant the help action. The wizard is now bringing something new to the situation.

It's not necessarily a matter of being trained. If the Gnome wizard was not trained in investigation, I'd still allow it. It's more the ingenuity of the action, and whether or not it brings new, relevant information to the task.

So, I'll turn your question back to you, McDunno: What new information or asset could Kit have brought to the situation to provide Help to Pageflap? If you can't think of a good, common sense answer, it probably means Kit wasn't in a position to help.

I like that Gnome doing an Investigation check on the door bit! I'm not a fan of just saying no to players, but if I had been presented with that scenario, I'm pretty sure I would have said no without coming up with the Investigation alternative.

You're right, Len, I could have done the Arcana check myself (+2 isn't terrible), but I felt something was up with the glowing mass and, since I'm here as experienced support, didn't want to be the one front-and-center figuring it out (it's also why I felt comfortable creating a character with no offensive or defensive capabilities--I'm not getting the kill-shot on the next Big Bad!). In my RL game, I'm more than willing to hog the spotlight. I tend to create strong-willed characters and have story arcs in mind for them that I push toward, whereas the other players are more passive and treat their characters more like pieces on a gameboard. We finally have a DM who appreciates the storytelling aspect of D&D, and I'm taking full advantage of that!

Anyway, yeah, I didn't intend to dictate Pageflap's turn (especially since I was operating on the assumption that he could do an Arcana check as a free action). But I also felt that what was happening each time a spell was cast was important and was flying under the radar. And that's what I felt was new information that Kit was bringing to Help Pageflap. It felt like the importance of it was being overlooked, so I had Kit point it out without him being the one to investigate it.

I'm not blowing smoke up your rear, Len, but I love the fact that you're the type of DM we can have these discussions with. I know sometimes that can be a problem if players try to take advantage of a benevolent DM, but you've also shown yourself to be adept at making a ruling, justifying it, and not being petty (like the DM I mentioned in a previous post) when players question it.

Cause when a DM just shuts down a conversation (or players don't feel comfortable asking questions), nobody learns nothin' (like a skill check taking an Action or letting a Gnome help bust down a door with an Investigation).

Are there any special rules about taking during combat? Do I have to wait my turn to say something, or can I just blurt it out now so the rest know?

Sorry Jacketch, I just added that to the post. You can say a sentence or two. A round of combat is 6 seconds of time, so use that as a guideline. I'm okay with people pushing that limit a little for dramatic or fun purposes.

BTW, I like how we're using the OOC thread for rules discussion and clarification now. I'm more guilty than everyone for putting too many OOC posts in the game forum and cluttering up the action, so don't feel bad. But, let's keep doing it this way: it will keep the game thread as clear and readable as possible.

I believe the grub attacked Barendd but didn't hit, so it should be the party's turn again. Right?

Did the last grub also crumble to ash?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention it died in the shockwave, no acid splash damage. Will edit when I get home. Thanks Jacketch