[OOC] General Discussion

On the topic of software, skilljacks and skillwires, note the introduction paragraph to Software:The rules make a distinction between software that's more basic, and software that replicate skills. The basic stuff is cheap and can be stored easily in a commlink with no issues. The skills stuff needs additional equipment such as skilljacks, and is costly. While that's understandable for activesofts (You can build a character who runs tons of skills, can swap them in and out, etc.), the rules saw it fit to include knowledge skills and language skills here as well. Therefore, linguasofts are indeed an add-on feature, needing a skilljack, and costs thousands. Commlinks don't do translation, even though they do speech-text conversion (in the same language).

However, the game doesn't think the language barrier is high though. Language tests are essentially Perception tests, so you're rolling an above average number of dice, plus bonus dice from your language skill. Successes are common. So as long as you know the language, at any skill level, you have a chance to figure out what's been said.

So ultimately the main obstacle seems to be not knowing [enough] languages. If you need to understand a language you don't know, and you don't have the linguasoft for it, you'd have to get a text version of it, or record it, and then 'send' it to someone or something to translate it. It is impossible to eavesdrop, for example, and expect to 'send' what you hear to somewhere to get it translated in time. I see that as akin to making Contacts rolls: someone out there translates for you.

While you can compare to Google Translate, your ability to hear the unfamiliar langauge and key it in correctly prevents you from accurately sending the information over for translation. Or maybe @dejoker's speculative claim is partially right; SR corporations aren't altruistically providing Google services anymore, even if the technology exists.

Skillsofts (activesofts, knowsofts and linguasofts) only run on skilljacks. When you buy the linguasoft and use it through your skilljack, this allows you to understand the language at the linguasoft rating that you bought, no translation occurs because you wouldn't need to 'translate' anything as you 'know' it already. Linguasofts don't use the programme slots in the commlink.

Commlink slots are used for all the accessories listed on p268, such as biometric readers, satellite links, sim modules, AR gloves, trodes, etc. In addition, commlinks only run these software: datasofts, mapsofts, shopsofts, tutorsofts. Its built-in functions are also listed under the commlink description parargraph, but these function at a very basic level. Commlinks do not run translation software. In fact, translation software is never mentioned (unless I missed it, in which case let me know).

As to why 'translation' software doesn't exist, think about it this way. In a world where you can immediately 'know' a language simply by plugging a linguasoft into you, why would you ever need to resort to 'translating' a language? (I get your theory about making 'translation' software as a cheaper version of actual language software, but maybe the problem is more similar to 'why make floppy disks when you already have thumb drives', the answer being nothing runs floppy disks anymore, ie. nothing runs translation software anymore.)

Thanks everyone for having an active discussion on this, keep going! Let me say straight of I enjoy these sort of discussions, with fellow GMs and players both.

First off, I agree with Falconloft's idea about the difficulties of language recognition and translation. But since the game permits Siri/Alexa style basic speech-to-text-to-speech in commlinks, we shall accept that as a given, ie. speech/text is fine. For the semantic purposes of this discussion, I shall refer to this as 'recognition', not 'translation' (which I shall use here to refer to converting one language to another).

Secondly, and I'm flipping through previous versions as well because after 100+ SR sourcebooks my memory is useless with regards to how translation was handled or ever handled in SR. I find little evidence of it so far.

Thirdly, back to a discussion I had with Dejoker before, and also something Falconloft just mentioned, needing language ability translation on a run is different from regular everyday translation activities and efforts. For practical in-game purposes, I'm ever only going to need a roll when translation makes a active difference at a particular scenario, ie. your runner needs to recognise there and then if the person is speaking in Hindi, and if can he understand any of it, and if he can figure out which bits are the relevant and important bits. The key here has to do will whether it's time-critical, and whether it's information-critical at that point. In such a situation, another dilemma is: why would a runner in say the UCAS, possess recognition software in Hindi? Does he have universal translation software? Does this mean all translators are universal translators and everyone who has a commlink has them? Perhaps Hindi needs to be first loaded into your device before you can ever translate it.

Translation at leisure will probably not need a roll, eg. you have a text in a foreign language, you have all the time in the world to get it translated.

Finally, I was going to direct you to the difference between datasofts and knowsofts, but TheVagrant got there first. A datasoft is a way small database of knowledge than a knowsoft. The example is one specific gang vs all the gangs in Seattle. One book vs a shelf/section of the library. By the same token, a 'datasoft' version of a linguasoft could address either a limited lexicon of the language, or a rudimentary 'translation' of the language. The difference in quality and performance should follow the guideline of the cost: a datasoft costs 120, a knowsoft costs 2500 (excluding the skilljack which is 20000x rating)

So a 'datasoft' style linguasoft at 120 vs an actual linguasoft at 1500x rating, can only offer key word recognition and/or translation of only one particular domain of one language, eg. key words in business speech, or street slang, or technical terms in genetics etc, at level 1. Separate datasofts would be required for different languages, just like separate linguasofts would be required.

(This is me trying to use RAI rather than RAW, but not moving into GAW yet.)

Sorry about the 1.5-day silence, work plus sniffles kept me on all pistons. Updates coming!

Thanks for the comprehensively thought out discussion. I hear the inner GMs all trying to make sense of SR lore and background, something I've tried to grapple with over the years and editions. Here's my take, using just the 6e, and then referring to earlier ones if necessary for inspiration or guidance. (Which has been my original premise for starting this game in the first place).

We know there's no translation software in the 6e. And also none I can find in the earlier editions. This can mean it doesn't exist, or interestingly it may mean, using what Falconloft quoted above, have it transcribed to German, that we can get texts transcribed from one language to another. This still doesn't mean it is a basic programme installed in everyone's commlink; it sounds like a service we can employ someone to do. Now I know the non-existence of translation software is very strange, given that there are so many other sci-fi / futurist advances this game uses, but hold off for a bit, we'll reconcile this later.

Let me talk about Dejoker's proposal to invent an equivalent minor software to linguasoft, using the parallel of datasoft vis-a-vis knowsoft. I'll explain datasoft vs knowsoft again. A datasoft is a very small database of knowledge than a knowsoft. The examples given describe it as knowing one specific gang vs all the gangs in Seattle, or akin to one book vs a shelf/section of the library.

If we want to invent / house rule a langsoft (made up a new word for convenience) vis-a-vis linguasoft, I'd recommend using the same principles. Firstly, all skillsofts are level 1 to 6 only. No level 7. Secondly, linguasofts only go up to to skill level 4, so a langsoft cannot be higher. To clarify, linguasoft level 4 means you understand and speak exactly with the same proficiency as a native speaker would. Nothing illogical there. Eg, if you own many linguasofts, you would be understanding and speaking at native level proficiency in all of them. Level 1 means you gain the ability to use Perception tests to understand things in that language, which you could not have done before, p99. At level 4 you never have to roll. Note especially it still doesn't say you get the ability to translate! What this simply means is if your character who knows English as a native langauge, and has a linguasoft of level 4 Sperethiel, in total your character knows two languages, English and Sperethiel at a native level. I'll repeat, a linguasoft isn't a translation software.

Back to inventing a langsoft. A langsoft would be a small subset of a linguasoft (like a datasoft is a small subset of a knowsoft). I proposed earlier that this means a Japanese langsoft would be a specific language area of a Japanese linguasoft, eg business Japanese, or underworld Japanese, or scientific Japanese. (Other real world equivalents would be like legalese, or Cockney slang, or thieves' cant). Having a level 1 Cockney langsoft installed in your commlink allows you to process Cockney, at level 4 your commlink is able to process Cockney at a native level. It's a commlink programme, so unlike a skilljack interface, you don't actually possess the ability to speak it, you'll additionally need a direct neural interface, trodes, or some such. This bears repeating, to use the skill, you need a skilljack, and languages in this game are defined as skills.

So with this, I can get back to translation, the difficulties of which Falconloft tried to expound on earlier. To translate, you need to possess the language skills of two languages, eg. you know English, and you have a linguasoft that lets you know Japanese. If you know both, you can translate. But if you only can afford a Japanese langsoft for Japanese Yakuza slang in your commlink, when you use the commlink it will allow you to understand what these slang terms mean. Kinda like a dictionary, not so much a translator.

Alrighty, gonna have to crash for a bit, then new posts for everyone after that! Thanks for the patience!

Edit: I forgot to take into account one more consideration. Commlinks run software of these types: datasofts, mapsofts, shopsofts, tutorsofts. All these software aren't 'skills', mechanically they have no skill levels, mapsofts and shopsofts give a +1 dice pool modifier. So if we were to invent a langsoft which can be used in a commlink, it would not have skill levels either. Note the sentence above I deleted. A Cockney langsoft will enable a user to understand Cockney slang, ie. mechanically allow a Perception test to recognise and understand Cockney, just like a Pullayup gangs datasoft is a small subset of the Seattle gangs knowsoft, ie. mechanically allow a test of some sort on Pullayup gangs only.