The Grand Tournament Of Leander (5E)

It seems like the non-class brings up real issues within the game itself, there's countless was too do it but then countless issues with how to do it

Being a new person to dnd in general and bringing in something that's not in, if everyone can agree on a way for non-class to work then I'd happily do any that works
There's people in a lot of dnd and everything here so you'll learn, if you have any issues you can just ask

Sure sure. I mean, I played years and years of 3.0/3.5 and 4th, just haven't gotten on that 5th train yet.

To follow up on this question a bit: Where is the setting taking place? A specific realm? Specific place inside a specific realm? I'd like to brush up on the lore before I start concepting a character.

Forgotten realm but this island is pure homebrew and the lore behind it is too, it's very make you're own lore with you're own character if you wish too as well, champions and people are coming from all over the realm

Let me give it a stab then. The easiest way to do it without upsetting overall balance is to replace just the advancement system. So what I propose is meant to be an alternative to XP gain and levelling up. All other aspects of the game will remain the same. Here's what I've got to start with:

Level 0 Commoner
You do everything you normally do at character creation, except you do not choose a class (assign attributes, pick a background, pick a race - gain all bonuses of the background and race you chose). Instead, you gain the follow benefits as a level 0 commoner:

1. Unless you gain a Feat from your starting race, gain 1 Feat
2. Gain proficiency with Padded Armor (also gain Padded Armor)
3. Gain proficiency with one simple weapon (also gain that weapon, if it requires ammunition gain 10 pieces of ammo)
4. You have a +1 Proficiency Bonus
6. Your starting hit points are 6 + Con Modifier
7. You have 0 hit dice

Skill Based Advancement
This system can replace XP gain by extending the rules to cover class advancement more generally. For now, I just describe it with respect to the advancement from a level 0 Commoner onto and to the first level of a Class path.

To advance along a Class path you must spend 5 Advancement Points associated with skills that the chosen class specialized in. Advancement Points are earned when you make skill checks, and also when you survive battles.

Whenever you make a skill check, if you succeed gain 1 Advancement Point in that skill. If you fail, gain 2 Advancement Points in that skill. Additionally, whenever you win or survive a combat encounter, you gain 1 Advancement point if it was classified as Easy, 3 if it was classified as Hard and 5 if it was classified as Deadly. Point earned from Combat are not tied any skill, and may be spent as if they were associated with any skill.

To advance along a Class Path, during a Long Rest you spend Advancement Points. Only points associated with skills on a Class skill list (those that members of that class can choose to be Proficient in) can be spent to advance along that Class path. Once you start on a class path, you cannot advance along another path until you complete the level on the class path you have started. You complete a level when you have obtained all features of that level (then you become "level 1" in that class).

If you are a level 0 Commoner, in your first Advancement you gain a Hit Die from that class and the class skill proficiencies. You also increase your maximum hit points by the value of the hit die minus 6. So if you gain a d8 hit die, you also gain 2 hit points (8 less 6). Your second advancement grants you the rest of the Proficiencies from the class (Armor, Weapons, Tools, Saving Throws). Each Advancement after the second grants you 1 level 1 Class feature. Once you have obtained all Features of level 1, you become "level 1" in that class. Your proficiency bonus raises to 2. At this point you can start using the standard advancement rules, or see the next section for details on how to use this system beyond obtaining level 1.

Your GM should, as you advance, ensure that you acquire the equipment listed in your path's starting equipment. The bulk of this should be obtained before, or immediately after, your second Advancement.

Example: Advancing to Barbarian 1
Jack Rager is a level 0 Commoner. After playing for a while, he has earned 3 points from Combat 5 Points in Athletics, 2 Points in Stealth, and 2 Points in Perception. Jack's player decides to become a Barbarian, and during his next long rest Advances. The Barbarian's class skills are Animal Handling, Athletics, Intimidation, Nature, Perception and Survival. All of hits points, except Stealth, could be used to Advance along the Barbarian Path. So, he spends his 5 points from Athletics for the first Advancement - starting on the path of Barbarian 1 - and his 3 Combat and 2 Perception points for a second Advancement.

The first Advancement grants a d12 hit die, so he gains 6 additional hit points. It also grants the Barbarian skill proficiencies and the Barbarian gets to pick two from its list. He picks Athletics and Perception as his two skills, after all those are the skills he's been using so he feels that it makes the most sense.

The second Advancement grants him the Armor, Weapon, Tool and Saving Throw proficiencies. He looks forward to the opportunity to acquire some medium armour, now that he can wear it, and a shield. A martial weapon, like a longsword, would be a nice upgrade from his dagger. Hopefully he will soon be able to buy, or otherwise acquire these now that he is proficient.

Later on he has earned some more Advancement points, 3 more from Combat (another battle), 4 in Perception and 3 in Intimidation. During his next long rest he spends all 10 points to buy the last two Advancements. For the first he gains the Rage feature and for the second the Unarmored Defense. Now has has all features of a level 1 Barbarian and so becomes a level 1 Barbarian! His proficiency bonus increases to 2 and he's finally finished the Barbarian 1 path.

As long as you cannot exceed the level a original class character is then I don't see that as an issue, the only issue is if everyone is a non-class character then the person who rolls worst will level into classes easier then someone who rolls better but saying that if I count EXP from battles and keep them at normal and everyone levels (if they have points to spend) when they can

But that's better than the opposite, where someone who rolls well ALSO levels faster. In the case you describe, the person who is levelling into their class more slowly is also succeeding on the tasks they set out to do - they are achieving things.

If it's "if you got the points you can spend them to level up" then that'll be an issue, if you can get to level one just before someone else who is a non-class that's fine but if you can get to level two before a class character then it'll be a issue, when the class character gets to level two then everyone else if they have the points can proceed to level two, it's a balancing issue of making sure everyone can be on the same level, the XP is higher so the points needed will be higher and that'll either be unfair on one or the other

Pre- or post-Spellplague?

Not read into the lore of the forgotten realms, new to dnd but I know it's through editions so I need to brush up on it but whenever all things where fine lol I sound totally newbish but I am lol

Any kind of skill based system will have a problem with differential advancement. The cleanest way to resolve the problem I can see is this:

1) Skill-based progression stops at level 1, and then you advance using XP as normal. Prior to level 1 you still collect XP but can't level up with it until you reach level 1 (this ensures that no-class, and level 1 characters are all on a par; it's just no-class characters need to reach level 1 first, and for the extra work they get a bonus feat).

Also, if you wanted to use the skill-based system instead of XP entirely, my thinking was that the number of points required to gain an Advancement is equal to 5 (or whatever the baseline is) + your current level*2 (so as you level up, it takes longer to gain more levels). That will keep characters more close together (but doesn't prohibit the possibility of differential advancement).

It'll be a pretty important distinction for anyone concerned with tying a character to the lore of Forgotten Realms. Post-Spellplague (4th and 5th edition) is a reasonably different setting from Pre- (3rd edition and previous). The Spellplague is the vehicle they used to introduce racial and cosmological changes to the setting. If it's a 5th edition game it'd probably be worthwhile to go with the current timeline, as switching to Pre-spellplague might rule out certain character options, again assuming it's someone trying to work within the Forgotten Realms lore.

I think a 5+level will be quiet easy to bypass the class characters so I think more would need to be added, so a non-class starts at 0, class starts at 1, it's easier for class to get to level 2 before non gets from zero to one, it's more than likely they will catch up to class on level 2 when its close to three, when class is at three then the non-class will literally be behind it, when non-class gets to three it's intergrated fully into the class and will start at the XP and everything that class will be at, it'll be hard to balance out but I think level three should be when you're fully the class, the free ability has paid for itself in being slightly behind through the early learning you're skill game

----

The lore will be in line with this edition, I thought that was a newer thing is this edition lol see I do know nothing about lore lol

So you want class and no-class characters to be using different advancements until level 3, but then at level 3 you want them to be advancing at the same rate (from the same starting point)?

The only way you're going to achieve this is if you stop the class character advancement at level 3 (that is, stop granting XP) until all characters are firmly at level 3. Or, otherwise ensuring that there are plenty of out-of-combat opportunities for skill checks so that no-class characters can catch up (because it's out of combat skill checks where they gain advancement but class doesn't). So, it could also be brought into alignment by careful behind-the-scenes adventure design by the GM.

NOTE: My proposed skill advancement system could easily be extended to carry on to level 3 (advancements each add features; just need to figure out how spell systems correspond to 'features'; but I can work it out so that every class is the same number of advancements from level 0 to level 3).

Extending it would help, I think there should be a difference at first from trained and untrained, I can always inflate and deflate overall encounter XP (not stupidly obviously lol) to help not make the class level become too high or add more checks to help along if the non-class is flaking behind

If you're willing to manage the XP in the background to ensure no-classes are 'on a par' by level 3, then the question is really just one of how fast or slow you want no-class to reach level 3. As I proposed the system, by the time they hit level 1 class characters will probably be level 2, but the jump from level 1 to 3 will be faster than the jump from level 0 to level 1, and so they should 'naturally' catch up (with you having to tweak XP based on how things are actually going - as it does, a bit, depend on how rolls are going).

When class will be hitting 3, non-class will be around level 2 and two/thirds, if we will be reaching level three the proposed once you unlocked everything you get the stats will need to be changed otherwise a non will jump from level two to three adding both two and three stats and three skills, so 0 to 1 will get you stats and then you need to get the abilities from that level

Note: need sleep so I'll reply to any comments when I wake up

I'm afraid I'm not following.

From level 0 to level 1 requires typically 4 Advancements, level 1 to 2 will require 2-3, and level 2 to 3 will also require 2-3 - so that's 8-10 advancements in total to reach level 3.

There are no skills added after level 1 (that's a feature of 5th Edition; with the exception of classes like Rogue and Bard that have specific class features that grant additional skills, no one gains skills after level 1). After level 1 it's just class features (such as more spells per day, more spells known, improved rage, the rogues' Expertise feature, etc..)

I got my wires confused I thought it was the last unlock was the hit die and with reaching level three you get a hit die but I was wrong

I think it's best we should cut out the hit die advancement and you automatically get it, so at 0 you automatically get it (people will be super squishy, I understand there non-classes but a few bad rolls can leave the whole crew dead or dying) so say you start of at 9 health, you won't get another hit die till you finish the last of level 1 where you are now a level 2, unless people want a hit die on level 1 instead of automatically at 0, this will cut out 2 advancements so it will be between 6/8 advancements needed (6 and 7 will be adjusted to level of 8) there just need to be a balancing tho as there could be lets say a two on two tavern brawl, you've already gotten 6 points from checks and now you defeat them you would get another 6 meaning level 0 to 1 is a few points off, if that's upped and the group is 6 players stronger vs let's say 4 goblin then that's 12 points from the battle without any perception or stealth checks, if someone goes to a merchant, persuades him, intimidates him and then fights him then that is either 5 or 7 points just for that

I think that me saying when the non-class can level can cut out a lot of the balancing issues, so someone can have unlocked everything for level one but aren't level one yet and cannot work towards level 2 stuff but there points still accumulate, so X player could have 5 points left over and grab something from level two, if I need to lower or up the level of points needing to go along, it won't be a solely my decision as it effects everyone

I'm just disappointed that no one has thought of a streamlined way of starting at zero for 5e yet

Anymore questions from anyone else (not butting in on a discussion lol) just ask away or if you have a race that needs a once look over then I'll be happy to check it out, PMs are also welcome

Small note: if everyone picks non-class then we can just go XP option and everyone levels together

Since you're open to homebrews, I'm thinking about submitting my homebrew half-man-half-horse (a tikbalang, which is like a reverse centaur). But excited about zero level as well! Decisions, decisions!

Then again, I could do both, couldn't I a non-classed character with a homebrewed race? Assuming the homebrew is approved, of course!