Welcome

Aug 12, 2021 8:36 pm
Welcome early arriver. I have not set up anything here yet, so there is nowhere else for you to post. :(

Since you are here, I guess I had better get something going, both here and in the public forums. :)

I will update this post with useful information when I can.
Aug 12, 2021 8:36 pm
To get us started, it will help to know what you, personally, expect from this experience.

Tell us a little about yourself and about your past experience with playing or GMing. Don't worry if the both are 'none, 0 XP', you can GM without ever having been a player, it is common (someone in your group has to be the first) and the way I started.

Tell us if there is any particular skill you want to work on and we can try arrange opportunities to practice that.

It can help us to know what games you have access to (even if you have not read them yet:) (PbtA and other), what you have played, and what you would like to play. That way we can better tailor any answers or examples to your needs.

Tell us anything else I have not thought of that seems relevant.
Aug 12, 2021 8:36 pm
reserved
Aug 12, 2021 8:36 pm
reserved
Aug 12, 2021 8:43 pm
Welcome sean_don4.
How may I serve you?
:)
Aug 12, 2021 10:47 pm
Welcome OkumHart.
Let us know what you need. If you want to to focus on one of the other games at first we can do that. This will be here if you need it.
If you have questions (about GMing or anything else) as, I will eventually put together forums for the relevant categories of questions, but that will only come with time as we learn what people are wanting.
Aug 12, 2021 11:05 pm
Welcome Qralloq.
I value any input you have to add to this.

What are you look to get from this?
Aug 12, 2021 11:11 pm
vagueGM says:
Welcome Qralloq.
I value any input you have to add to this.

What are you look to get from this?
My goals are two-fold:

1. I've been running several PBTA games on a small scale (duets, or one-on-one games) and know that I've been missing key elements, largely in regards to the GM Move economy. I always have things to learn.

2. I want to support and assist you in this noble endeavor.
Aug 13, 2021 12:07 am
Thanks, I am mainly looking to learn about the system PbtA and any tips for GMing I can take away from this experience.
Aug 13, 2021 12:36 am
Qralloq says:
2. I want to support and assist you in this noble endeavor.
Thanks. I appreciate that.
Qralloq says:

1. ... missing key elements, largely in regards to the GM Move economy. I always have things to learn.
Yeah, that whole cycle can take a while to get smooth. It seems like it should be more complicated than it really is, so people overthink it. :)
Fortunately this is a part that is (mostly) the same across most PbtA games, so once you get it down, you don't need to think about it too much anymore.

I think this is big enough that I will assemble a document on the topic, but in brief.

While keeping the game's specific Agenda and Principles in mind, you basically make a GM Move whenever:
• The Player rolls a 6-
• The players hand you a golden opportunity
• The Players look to you to see what happens next


The 6- is fairly simple, only the players roll dice, and when they roll less than a 7 total something bad * happens. Every time they roll a 6-. Nothing Never Happens.


A Golden Opportunity should normally be clear when it happens. Often the player has their character do something monumentally stupid, makes a bad choice, or chooses to sacrifice something (including themself), so you look to your Moves. But remember 'Be a Fan of the Players' Characters', before delivering judgement, ask the player if they meant to do something stupid, their character knows a lot more about the world than they do, and their character can see a lot more about the situation than they can. If the player forgot about something their character deals with every day, don't punish them. **


The one I see messed up the most is the last, 'when the player looks to you to see what happens'. This is not them asking for clarification, this is not them investigating something, this them going "... OK, and now what happens?" with baited breath.
This means that everything you say or do is a Move. The book does say so, but sometimes that does not sink in. The GM is technically limited to only doing and saying the things on the Moves *** list, and needs to make a Custom Move if they want to go off-book.
This is not as limiting as it sounds. This sets the tone and style of the game. This is really how various PbtA games are different from each other (that and the Playbook selections (and Moves)).


* For both the 6- and Golden Opportunity most games say "Make as hard a move as you like". This does not mean "make the hardest move you can", you might like to make a Soft Move ****, and that is completely legit.
A 6- also does not mean they fail. (I dislike the term 'miss' but in Vincent's mind it is sufficiently different and does not mean 'fail'. I will most say '6-'.) Something they don't want to have happen will happen, but they may still get what they were going for and succeed at what they were doing. They may wish they hadn't, but such is life. :)

** PbtA GMs are not the players' adversaries (I don't believe they should be in other games either, but explicitly not in PbtA). The players only have what the GM says (or writes) by which to judge the world, so be generous. One of the GM's Agenda items is to "Make the World seem real" or "Play the World as though it were a Real Place", so the players should be able to work out what is happening with minimal descriptions. But often a player will need more detail than they were given. If they ask for more, give them more.
But also remember to "Make the players' characters' lives not boring"

*** I seldom actually look at the Move list during a game. I tend to read though it before the game starts --to refresh myself and get into the spirit of the specific game-- and then I just do whatever seems right in the moment. 99% of the time I can go back and fit what I did to a Move, but, if I am channelling the tone and feel of the game, the sorts of things I would choose to do are what the Moves would have done for me anyway.
This comes with practice. *****

***** I am leery of the rule to "not speak the Move's name". I translate that as "don't just speak the Moves name". I prefer to describe the Move's outcome in in-game terms, but have often mentioned the name afterwards. Maybe, as here, we are trying to learn GMing, so we will do it all the time, but maybe a player is looking uncomfortable and reminding them that "take away their stuff" is a Move makes it all alright again (true story:).

**** Hard and Soft Moves are way too mysticised. They are really easier than many (games and people) make them out to be.
A Soft Move is one that the character can still prevent before it gets bad. (GM: "the tree starts to fall towards you", "they start to mutter angrily and reach for their weapons", etc) (Player: "I dodge out the way", "I talk them down", etc)
A Hard Move is one that has happened, now the character needs to deal with the consequences. (GM: "The tree falls and pins you to the ground, take 2 Harm", "they shout angrily, draw their guns and start shooting", etc) (Player: "Ouch! I make the Harm Move and then try to crawl out from underneath. Roll + Strength?", "I guess we fight/flee", etc).


So much for 'brief'. :)
Aug 13, 2021 12:37 am
OkumHart says:
... looking to learn about the system PbtA and any tips for GMing...
I know you mentioned some of this elsewhere, but it might help to have the answer in this game where it is easier to find.
You played a little Dungeon World? Did you read the book? Have you read any other PbtA games? What other games are you familiar with? Have you GMed any before?

Anyone else should answer this as well, it helps us calibrate what we teach and the types of examples we use.
Aug 13, 2021 12:51 am
Welcome theatreofcomets. (How would that even work? Like, do the comets act?:)

What do you want to get from this game?
Do you have any specific questions?
What is your history?
Aug 13, 2021 1:53 am
vagueGM says:

a little Dungeon World? Did you read the book? Have you read any other PbtA games? What other games are you familiar with? Have you GMed before?
I have the book, technically, but I haven't read through it well enough to say I remember much. I haven't played any other PbtA games and I haven't GMed any either.
Aug 13, 2021 2:33 am
OkumHart says:
... haven't read through it well enough to say I remember much ...
That's quite alright. I don't remember the DW book well enough to give page numbers (or even accurate names... what was the Move again? Act Under Fire? Act Under Pressure? Act Despite Danger?... let's call it 'Act':).

Since you have to read what we would type here anyway, you may as well go ahead and read the book. Feel free to ask any specific questions that come up as you do.

Even if we only want to play one game, it is worth reading others to get alternate perspectives. Sometimes the language one book uses makes something we were struggling with in another suddenly click.
Aug 13, 2021 2:44 am
One way to start would be to play a few scenes, with one of us taking the role of GM. The scenes don't have to be tied to a story and we don't need to make characters (we can just list any stats we need in the game thread and post as ourselves).

Does anyone want to start us off with an idea?

Anyone have an preferences for genre? Dungeon World has been mentioned and the rules are available for free on the SRD website, but it might be easier to start with World of Dungeons if we want to do fantasy. World of Dungeons has fewer rules and only one Move, so it might not help with the 'which Move do we pick?' quandary.

One of the simplest PbtA games might be World of Dungeons Turbo: Breakers. It only has three Stats and one Move, then you buy some gear and are set. It can play well with random disconnected scenes, and the scenes can be almost anything, from a dungeon delve, to a bank heist, to a romantic dinner (OK, that last one is probably pushing the system a bit, but I am sure it could be done:).

World of Dungeons is available for free at One Seven Design (PDF) and itch.io.

Breakers is available for free at One Seven Design and itch.io.

Neither World of Dungeons nor Breakers has any GM advice or Moves at all. They expect the GM to make them up. I don't know if that would help us.

If we have all read Dungeon World, and to practice a variety of Moves, we can stick to that for now. Or do both, at a slower rate.
I am sure Dungeon World characters can be made in less than five minutes if we stick to the book. If you need help with that, give me a shout, GMs need to help players make characters all the time, it is also a vital skill even if they don't get to do it themselves.
Aug 13, 2021 3:43 am
vagueGM says:
Welcome theatreofcomets. (How would that even work? Like, do the comets act?:)
Ha! It's an old astronomy book I've always loved the title of, and always comes to mind when I'm stuck for a new username :)
Quote:
What do you want to get from this game?
Practice! I've read a lot of games recently, and have absorbed a lot of advice. But I haven't tried any of it out. I have a group of close friends who currently want to try out ttrgps, but have never played before, and I know if the first time sucks too much, they'll lose interest. But I'd love for it to become something our friends group does, so want to get some practice. We did play Fiasco the other day, which was mixed - we had fun but I could tell people found it a lot of work, and some of the prep we skimped on made the actual game a lot harder. I'd like to GM for my group for the time being so the others aren't having to work as hard while we all learn. And hopefully they get the bug and it becomes something we keep doing.
Quote:
Do you have any specific questions?
Not right now - I just want to get a feel for doing it. I'm sure I'll have more questions then, though! To use an analogy: right now I feel like I've read a bunch of books on dance steps and could tell you about what they're called and how they're supposed to work and look, but I've spent barely any time on a dance floor. Once I've done that, I'll have some proper questions about the steps.
Quote:
What is your history?
I played a little D&D as a teen in the '80s ina high school group, and read a bunch of other games - Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Bushido. I always read a lot more than I played. Ironically when I got a little older and made friends who were into ttrpgs, we never played together, because we were all also into music and started rock bands together instead.

[edit] I haven't read Dungeon World, but am happy to. Or happy to go with any of the other suggestions instead.
Last edited August 13, 2021 3:52 am
Aug 13, 2021 3:59 am
theatreofcomets says:
... did play Fiasco ... which was mixed ... people found it a lot of work ... the prep we skimped on made the actual game a lot harder ...
Yep. Sounds like Fiasco. it usually goes that way. With a lot of disciple Fiasco can be a lot of fun, but it is not a casual game. :)

Do you want to start by GMing a random scene? Then we can help you each step of the way? No need to try make it good.
Or maybe you want me to start a scene and we can discuss how we would each handle each step?
Aug 13, 2021 4:00 am
Well I'd be willing to give WoDu a try. It's basically open ended as to what the GM can or should do, and is still fiction based. Should I have notes about the overall feel/theme of the dungeon?
Aug 13, 2021 4:15 am
OkumHart says:
Well I'd be willing to give WoDu a try.
Cool. Let me know what you need from me to get you going. I will make a sub-forum and give you Moderator privileges on it when I get a moment.
OkumHart says:
It's basically open ended as to what the GM can or should do ...
I am not convinced about that. WoDu provides very little help for the GM, but expects them to know other PbtA games. Dungeon World is the assumed basis for GM advice. WoDu can be easier for players to get going in since they don't need to read anything and just need to trust the GM, but can be hard for a GM who has to do all the work and handle all the rules and rulings, it offers very little for them to lean on.

If enough of us are happy to try DW, it may be a better place to start. It has rules, mechanisms, and guidance for the GM to follow.
OkumHart says:
... Should I have notes about the overall feel/theme of the dungeon?
Do you mean for us, or for yourself to get started? Both can help, but are not strictly required.

If you are thinking of starting a campaign, then some thought needs to go into such questions and the players need to know what they are signing up for, but these can be in general terms.
With DW I usually do that after we have sat down together and made characters. I believe that is also what the DW books says to do? (It has been years since I read DW.)

I generally don't recommend doing more prep-work than is necessary, but people's threshold for how much is necessary varies. Do as much as you need.

I can offer advice on where to focus on prep if you have limited time, but it may be premature for such things.

If you are only wanting to run a random, throw-away scene, then we don't need much more than the introduction in the scene.
Aug 13, 2021 4:23 am
OkumHart: You should be able to create threads and have GM privileges in for threads in https://gamersplane.com/forums/7979/

Let me know if you can not or have any problems with them and I can take another look at the permissions.
If anyone else wants a sub-forum call out and I can make them.
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