Rule Discussion

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Mar 3, 2023 8:53 pm
Just a spot for us to discuss rules =)

Going to start with Exploration Mode (see link for all possible activities while exploring). Exploration mode is one of three modes along with Encounter Mode, which we'll see soon enough, and Downtime Mode.
Mar 3, 2023 9:03 pm
Here here for rules discussion!
Mar 3, 2023 9:09 pm
One thing I was looking up just now is whether someone can Aid with Scouting, but since Scout doesn't incur a skill check, I don't think Aid applies.

I also wondered whether two people could Scout for a +2 circumstance bonus, for example. I haven't found anything about it yet, but I think it doesn't stack in that way. I'm just picturing two people being alerted at the same time, not like they'd have extra premonition.
Mar 3, 2023 9:25 pm
We'll be using Encounter Mode? What could possibly go wrong in the fishery, I'm sure it'll all be just fine ;-)

Anywho, awesome idea of having a rules forum!
Mar 3, 2023 9:46 pm
I agree on stacking. I believe in 1E you typically take the highest of, vs. being able to stack, a bonus based on its bonus type (in this case circumstance). I believe it's the same here.
Mar 3, 2023 10:23 pm
everwinter says:
One thing I was looking up just now is whether someone can Aid with Scouting, but since Scout doesn't incur a skill check, I don't think Aid applies.

Good question, from what I have read about you are correct.

Quoted for reference:
Quote:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 470 4.0
Trigger An ally is about to use an action that requires a skill check or attack roll.
Requirements The ally is willing to accept your aid, and you have prepared to help (see below).
You try to help your ally with a task. To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn. You must explain to the GM exactly how you’re trying to help, and they determine whether you can Aid your ally.

When you use your Aid reaction, attempt a skill check or attack roll of a type decided by the GM. The typical DC is 20, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks. The GM can add any relevant traits to your preparatory action or to your Aid reaction depending on the situation, or even allow you to Aid checks other than skill checks and attack rolls.

Critical Success You grant your ally a +2 circumstance bonus to the triggering check. If you’re a master with the check you attempted, the bonus is +3, and if you’re legendary, it’s +4.
Success You grant your ally a +1 circumstance bonus to the triggering check.
Critical Failure Your ally takes a –1 circumstance penalty to the triggering check.

Your text to link here...
Because Scouting does not require a roll of any skill check, it cannot be used to help with scouting.
Quote:
I also wondered whether two people could Scout for a +2 circumstance bonus, for example. I haven't found anything about it yet, but I think it doesn't stack in that way. I'm just picturing two people being alerted at the same time, not like they'd have extra premonition.
Same 'type' bonuses do not stack, but Circumstance, Proficiency, Status, and Item bonuses do stack Untyped Bonuses also stack. Same for penalties. Rules from Archives of Nethys for reference:
Quote:
There are three other types of bonus that frequently appear: circumstance bonuses, item bonuses, and status bonuses. If you have different types of bonus that would apply to the same roll, you’ll add them all. But if you have multiple bonuses of the same type, you can use only the highest bonus on a given roll—in other words, they don’t "stack." For instance, if you have both a proficiency bonus and an item bonus, you add both to your d20 result, but if you have two item bonuses that could apply to the same check, you add only the higher of the two.

Circumstance bonuses typically involve the situation you find yourself in when attempting a check. For instance, using Raise a Shield with a buckler grants you a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. Being behind cover grants you a +2 circumstance bonus to AC. If you are both behind cover and Raising a Shield, you gain only the +2 circumstance bonus for cover, since they’re the same type and the bonus from cover is higher.

Item bonuses are granted by some item that you are wearing or using, either mundane or magical. For example, armor gives you an item bonus to AC, while expanded alchemist’s tools grant you an item bonus to Crafting checks when making alchemical items.

Status bonuses typically come from spells, other magical effects, or something applying a helpful, often temporary, condition to you. For instance, the 3rd-level heroism spell grants a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, Perception checks, saving throws, and skill checks. If you were under the effect of heroism and someone cast the bless spell, which also grants a +1 status bonus on attacks, your attack rolls would gain only a +1 status bonus, since both spells grant a +1 status bonus to those rolls, and you only take the highest status bonus.

Penalties work very much like bonuses. You can have circumstance penalties, status penalties, and sometimes even item penalties. Like bonuses of the same type, you take only the worst all of various penalties of a given type. However, you can apply both a bonus and a penalty of the same type on a single roll. For example, if you had a +1 status bonus from a heroism spell but a –2 status penalty from the sickened condition, you’d apply them both to your roll—so heroism still helps even though you’re feeling unwell.

Unlike bonuses, penalties can also be untyped, in which case they won’t be classified as "circumstance," "item," or "status." Unlike other penalties, you always add all your untyped penalties together rather than simply taking the worst one. For instance, when you use attack actions, you incur a multiple attack penalty on each attack you make on your turn after the first attack, and when you attack a target that’s beyond your weapon’s normal range increment, you incur a range penalty on the attack. Because these are both untyped penalties, if you make multiple attacks at a faraway target, you’d apply both the multiple attack penalty and the range penalty to your roll.

Once you’ve identified all your various modifiers, bonuses, and penalties, you move on to the next step.

Your text to link here...
Mar 3, 2023 10:29 pm
Of interest @ctme2000 might be engaging in the Investigate Exploration activity:
Quote:

You seek out information about your surroundings while traveling at half speed. You use Recall Knowledge as a secret check to discover clues among the various things you can see and engage with as you journey along. You can use any skill that has a Recall Knowledge action while Investigating, but the GM determines whether the skill is relevant to the clues you could find.

Investigate
Then later if you see something interesting on the map, or in the GM's descriptive text you might switch to:
Quote:
You Seek meticulously for hidden doors, concealed hazards, and so on. You can usually make an educated guess as to which locations are best to check and move at half speed, but if you want to be thorough and guarantee you checked everything, you need to travel at a Speed of no more than 300 feet per minute, or 150 feet per minute to ensure you check everything before you walk into it. You can always move more slowly while Searching to cover the area more thoroughly, and the Expeditious Search feat increases these maximum Speeds. If you come across a secret door, item, or hazard while Searching, the GM will attempt a free secret check to Seek to see if you notice the hidden object or hazard. In locations with many objects to search, you have to stop and spend significantly longer to search thoroughly.

Search
As noted in each the rolls are typically secret rolls performed by the Game Master (to avoid the...I know I rolled low but that space is too good to not be hiding something...hey buddy of mine come use your perception skill here)
Mar 4, 2023 6:30 pm
@Madclergy, really appreciate all the insight! :D

On a separate note, should monster initiative be rolled in secret? Probably not so much a rule, more like game flavor...
Mar 4, 2023 8:21 pm
everwinter says:
@Madclergy, really appreciate all the insight! :D

On a separate note, should monster initiative be rolled in secret? Probably not so much a rule, more like game flavor...
If the monsters were being stealthy then you'd roll their stealth in secret and then their stealth becomes their initiative. Otherwise if the two parties (characters and monsters) all roll perception then all are noticed and all are detected.
Quote:

Initiative and Stealth

When one or both sides of an impending battle are being stealthy, you’ll need to deal with the impacts of Stealth on the start of the encounter. Anyone who’s Avoiding Notice should attempt a Stealth check for their initiative. All the normal bonuses and penalties apply, including any bonus for having cover. You can give them the option to roll Perception instead, but if they do they forsake their Stealth and are definitely going to be detected.

To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage, since that character needs to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. What if both sides are sneaking about? They might just sneak past each other entirely, or they might suddenly run into one another if they’re heading into the same location.
Mar 4, 2023 8:46 pm
Very cool, thanks for pointing that out. Maybe I'll begin taking a peek at the real Game Mastery guide as we go along, because the beginner's box doesn't go into this kind of detail. And I'm still learning how to get good results from AoN =)
Mar 5, 2023 3:27 pm
In hindsight, it seems a bit redundant for me to have asked for perception checks prior to initiative, which is also perception-based. XD oh well, it worked out alright.
Mar 8, 2023 10:39 pm
If I were to try and shoot the rats with an arrow, is there a chance I'll hit Wugruk or Dante? I believe the PCs provide the rats cover, so an AC bonus for them?
Mar 8, 2023 11:11 pm
I looked into this when Dante shot his flame, and as far as I can tell, creatures only provide cover if they are two sizes larger than both you and your target.
See: Cover

If anyone finds anything saying otherwise, please let me know. =)
Mar 8, 2023 11:13 pm
Ooohhh wait a second, looks like lesser cover is in place! Which would make Dante's attack just miss, but I'm not backtracking now. =p

So yes, +1 AC to the target with Wugruk on the way.
Mar 9, 2023 7:36 am
I think I made a mistake too, Dante's attack bonus is +7 and not +6. So that evens out lol.
Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm
@Manhattan, looking into summons: "Immediately when you finish Casting the Spell, the summoned creature uses its 2 actions for that turn."

At first I thought the dog could prepare a strike, but it looks like summons have the minion trait, which means they don't have a reaction - and reactions are what's needed for the Ready action.

Lastly, at first I thought that Ready required you to have an unused action, but I don't think that's the case since it already takes 2 actions. If the dog did have a reaction, I'd say it could use Ready even though it only has 2 actions total.
Mar 19, 2023 4:12 pm
Hmm. I don’t think there’s anything for the dog to do for now. Can it use its scent perception to scan the area for anymore dangers? Do you want me to roll for the dog?
Mar 19, 2023 4:16 pm
Just peruse the actions and do as you wish. Roll for the dog for now, unless it's supposed to be a secret roll. I'll try to find out who should be rolling for summoned creatures.
Mar 20, 2023 8:04 pm
On the subject of helping someone else escape, I juggled a few other options too, and I think an attack might've worked well. Here's my train of thought...

The Escape action allows you to choose between an unarmed strike, Acrobatics, or Athletics. So I got the "straight Dex" idea from Acrobatics: because Wugruk isn't the one trapped, doesn't make sense for his Acrobatics to work on freeing someone else. I didn't look until after I posted, but Wugruk has +6 Athletics and just +1 Dex lol so it's a no-brainer. But his dagger attack is also a +6 and could easily be higher for a build not focused on strength. Since Escape allows for an unarmed strike from within, I don't see why someone couldn't make a weapon strike from outside. Some sort of precision attack. I think I'd still apply friendly fire on a crit failure if using a weapon attack.

Interestingly, the Escape action is still labeled as an attack even if the player chooses an Acrobatics or Athletics check. I'm guessing this is for interaction with other mechanics, and wonder if it would make sense to also label Wugruk's Athletics check as an attack...
Mar 21, 2023 3:55 pm
I think you handled it correctly :)
Mar 21, 2023 3:59 pm
Thank you! Also figured out at least one reason for the "attack" label on Escape: it stacks that multi attack penalty ;D on that vein, I think your Athletics to break Errich free would also count as an attack. Similar Athletics actions (grapple, etc.) likewise have the attack trait.
Mar 22, 2023 3:26 am
Hmmm, would throwing my bottled lightning make sense in this case? Would I even be able to hit the spider, or is the webbing providing too much cover?
Mar 22, 2023 2:32 pm
Mechanically, the web doesn't provide cover, but the spider is tucked behind a corner so you'd have to move up around that corner (N4). Problem is, for anyone but the spider, any tiles with webbing are difficult terrain.
Mar 23, 2023 2:47 pm
Does anyone know if a turn in PF2e is still roughly 6 seconds? So an action is roughly 2 seconds?
Mar 23, 2023 3:04 pm
https://i.imgur.com/QiWYRB2.png

Yup, per CRB, a round is six seconds
Mar 23, 2023 8:26 pm
Nice, ty!
Mar 24, 2023 2:38 pm
Summoned creatures are pretty interesting! I thought Dante would need an extra action in addition to "sustain a spell" in order to issue a command, but for a summoned creature that sustain action counts:
Quote:
Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that's a spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits.
Mar 27, 2023 9:06 pm
Fun to find out that point-blank ranged attacks don't suffer from any penalties in PF2e. Instead, the spider got a couple crits to the face lol

On a related note, I'm curious if a prone target imposes penalties on the attacker. Gonna look that one up.

Edit: it does! But also imposes penalties on yourself. I'm really liking PF2e so far. =)
Mar 27, 2023 10:15 pm
Oh, so I should've taken a -2 penalty to the attacks?
Mar 28, 2023 12:20 am
ctme2000 says:
Oh, so I should've taken a -2 penalty to the attacks?
no no, you're good, I was just rambling on about the Prone condition 'cause I was curious on how it differs from the D&D mechanics. =)
Apr 4, 2023 4:37 pm
Specifically on Hero Points....

Hero Point Rules from Archives of Nethys
Quote:
Hero Points
Source Core Rulebook pg. 467 4.0
Your heroic deeds earn you Hero Points, which grant you good fortune or let you recover from the brink of death. Unlike most aspects of your character, which persist over the long term, Hero Points last for only a single session.

The GM is in charge of awarding Hero Points. Usually, each character gets 1 Hero Point at the start of a session and can gain more later by performing heroic deeds—something selfless, daring, or beyond normal expectations. You can have a maximum of 3 Hero Points at a time, and you lose any remaining Hero Points at the end of a session.

You can spend your Hero Points in one of two ways. Neither of these is an action, and you can spend Hero Points even if you aren't able to act. You can spend a Hero Point on behalf of your familiar or animal companion.
Spend 1 Hero Point to reroll a check. You must use the second result. This is a fortune effect (which means you can't use more than 1 Hero Point on a check).
Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to avoid death. You can do this when your dying condition would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don't gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don't lose it or decrease its value.
Apr 4, 2023 4:43 pm
If I'm reading this right, the system encourages you to spend hero points rather than accumulate them. Not only do you have to spend all hero points to avoid death when a single point would do, but you also lose them at the end of a session.

For the purposes of PBP, I think we're still on the first session and perhaps the best way to divide the game into sessions is by using significant narrative/story events.
Apr 4, 2023 5:21 pm
I agree, that is the intent for sure. As for PbP I think that's the best thing to do as well. Play it like you would a TV Episode, if it feels like the episode ended, the heroes start over on Hero Points.
Apr 15, 2023 2:22 pm
I'm not going to retroactively change it, but in those 12 attacks there was also a nat20 which I believe would be a regular success because the total of the roll was still under Wugruk's AC. As far as I can determine, attacks follow the same rules as skill checks for criticals and nat20s, right?
Apr 15, 2023 2:26 pm
And since it was the 3rd attack, it would have gotten damage bonuses on account of the scimitar's forceful trait!
Apr 15, 2023 5:53 pm
I was actually gonna ask that, with the crit 20. Correct, attacks also move up and down accordingly.
Apr 15, 2023 9:27 pm
I didn't even see that, but yes that technically would be a success, if the attack misses but it's a crit it steps up to a regular success.
May 25, 2023 5:08 pm
One thing that's weird for me with the beginner box is these random skill checks, which I understand are there for people to learn, but at the same time there's no time constraint so they end up being mostly for flavor. We can play loose with them.
May 25, 2023 5:11 pm
A while back, I also mentioned I wanted to discuss the skeletons, they're super cool =)

If you haven't already looked, check them out (unless you don't want SPOILERS even though you've already defeated them): https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=372

They only have 4 HP! But look at those resists and how they can really pile on the damage with Forceful scimitars. And Wugruk's strategy completely negated the Sweep trait, so well done!

The first time I saw them, I was like "wtf, these are going to just melt" but they turned out to be quite dangerous! It was really interesting to see the kinds of things that can balance out a creature. Dangerous, but still balanced, and with 4 HP hahah. Was fun to see the bottled lightning have no effect except on Wugruk =p

Lastly, because of their Mindless trait, I couldn't bring myself to have them doing stuff like Tumble Through and whatnot. Otherwise, it could've gotten hairier.
May 25, 2023 6:45 pm
Oh wow, that is a well thought skelly.

With a surprising +6 to acrobatics, I'm shocked you didn't let them tumble haha

Cool abilities too, you've gotta do the screaming skull at least once!

Thanks for the behind the scenes!
May 25, 2023 6:49 pm
Yeaaaa that +6 was really hard to ignore XD I still thought I couldn't really justify it, seemed weird for guards to be doing acrobatics, and mindless creatures conjuring up parkour moves hahah

So I just rationalized it like "it's probably for saves and whatnot"

The abilities look super juicy, I actually didn't notice them because the stat block on the actual book doesn't have all that! And I didn't scroll down enough!
May 26, 2023 3:04 pm
I didn't realize all the customization you could do with the various abilities you could add on to the skeletons. That's cool.

As for Tumbling Through, while the name invokes an acrobatic amusement (skeletons doing somersaults), you can do it with any movement speed, and while it uses Acrobatics to do such I would see it more as ducking, squeezing by, going between the knees, etc not just literally tumbling.
May 26, 2023 3:36 pm
Well, you two have convinced me to try harder to break your tactics next time XD
May 26, 2023 3:50 pm
What have we done....
Jul 10, 2023 11:11 pm
The game seems to have slowed down, still going on?
Jul 11, 2023 2:03 am
I was just waiting for the conversation to unfold in the main thread. =p Will Errich convey the party's decision to the kobolds?

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