Character Creation

Aug 11, 2023 7:17 pm
https://i.postimg.cc/1XNjsK01/Demon-The-Fallen-Symbol.webp

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

-- Revelations 16:14




Ask questions and discuss your characters here. Below is a link to the core book if you don't already have it. Character creation starts on Chapter Six.

Demon: The Fallen

Demon Players Guide

Houses of the Fallen

There are no limitations on Houses or Factions, though I'd prefer people avoid the Raveners faction. Remember that your characters are meant to be demons that are seeking redemption. That doesn't have to mean nice (you're still demons, after all). It just means you are trying to return to what you were before you Fell. "Trying" being the operative word. Torment can and will be an obstacle on the path toward redemption.

If you aren't familiar with the Storytelling System, don't fret. I can explain rules as I go. Don't be overwhelmed by the mechanics. It's a beefy system, but the basics are fairly straightforward and many of the rules are for very specific situations.
Aug 18, 2023 8:17 am
I've mostly built out my character already, save for a lot of backstory elements, just working on porting it into the sheet. Do you just want us to edit the sheet you sent in the sheet forum as an image/pdf? Or actually use a sheet in gamersplane? I'm currently working on changing the WoD sheet into a Demon friendly one, but I can put a pause on that.
Last edited August 18, 2023 8:22 am
Aug 18, 2023 1:37 pm
TheHumbug says:
I've mostly built out my character already, save for a lot of backstory elements, just working on porting it into the sheet. Do you just want us to edit the sheet you sent in the sheet forum as an image/pdf? Or actually use a sheet in gamersplane? I'm currently working on changing the WoD sheet into a Demon friendly
one, but I can put a pause on that.
Do whatever you are comfortable with. The sheet I posted for the game is purely optional.
Aug 18, 2023 6:35 pm
Are you putting a limit to some stats? If I go for the Fiend, I'd like to have the largest legacy you allow. Can we focus on a single lore and bring that up to three (even higher with freebies?)?

Are Merits and Flaws from the player's handbook allowed? Currently looking through the ones that add to the know-it-all concept.
Aug 18, 2023 8:41 pm
Any house rules? What are the allowed books?
Aug 18, 2023 8:49 pm
eldarin says:
Are you putting a limit to some stats? If I go for the Fiend, I'd like to have the largest legacy you allow. Can we focus on a single lore and bring that up to three (even higher with freebies?)?

Are Merits and Flaws from the player's handbook allowed? Currently looking through the ones that add to the know-it-all concept.
Yes, you can raise a Lore above three dots using freebie points. The only limitation is that no single Lore can have more dots than your Primary Lore.

I have no caps on Attributes, Abilities, and Advantages other than what the book indicates, so you can max out Legacy if you’d like.

Yes, you may borrow Merits and Flaws from the other books in the game line, so long as it makes sense for your character.
Aug 18, 2023 8:54 pm
Camilla says:
Any house rules? What are the allowed books?
Anything from official DtF books is fine. No homebrewed material, please.

I have a couple of house rules, but they all pertain to combat. Because this is play-by-post, I do initiative differently for ease of play. I plan to make a post about them.
Aug 18, 2023 8:54 pm
Quote:
Demon: The Fallen has no Merits and Flaws in the core book, but you may borrow Merits and Flaws from other Classic World of Darkness books, so long as it makes sense. Just run the desired Merit or Flaw by me, first, in case it’s something problematic.
It has Merits and Flaws in a supplement though, the Player's Guide. Bought it a while ago via drivethru - not sure if I would be allowed sharing it privately for use in this game (like I would be with a print version in a classical rpg group)...
Aug 18, 2023 8:55 pm
eldarin says:
Quote:
Demon: The Fallen has no Merits and Flaws in the core book, but you may borrow Merits and Flaws from other Classic World of Darkness books, so long as it makes sense. Just run the desired Merit or Flaw by me, first, in case it’s something problematic.
It has Merits and Flaws in a supplement though, the Player's Guide. Bought it a while ago via drivethru - not sure if I would be allowed sharing it privately for use in this game (like I would be with a print version in a classical rpg group)...
Gotchya I’ll correct my above post
Aug 18, 2023 9:06 pm
Actually, this page contains a list of Merits and Flaws from that book, might be interesting for some.

Anything you'd consider banned? I am mostly interested in things related to knowing things. Fast Reader, Eidetic Memory, Concentration,... But also thought about adding some ordinary knowledge via Trivia Champ. Also Dreams of the past or similar Merits (that allow feeding in some information we wouldn't get to other wise when it seems appropriate to the storyteller)...
Aug 18, 2023 9:13 pm
eldarin says:
Actually, this page contains a list of Merits and Flaws from that book, might be interesting for some.

Anything you'd consider banned? I am mostly interested in things related to knowing things. Fast Reader, Eidetic Memory, Concentration,... But also thought about adding some ordinary knowledge via Trivia Champ. Also Dreams of the past or similar Merits (that allow feeding in some information we wouldn't get to other wise when it seems appropriate to the storyteller)...
Let me check over the list and I’ll get back to you. There’s probably a few Merits of Flaws that might be an issue, but most should be fine.

Fast Reader, Eidetic Memory, and Concentration are all permitted.
Aug 18, 2023 9:50 pm
For my own merits/flaws, I'm thinking of taking huge size as my only merit, and distinguishing characteristic (a carefully manicured and proudly presented cutaneous horn), no sense of smell (broken and re-broken nose), crude, eccentric appearance (he absolutely refuses to take off his sunglasses and leather jacket, doesn't matter if it's blazing hot, doesn't matter if he's inside), and criminal record as my flaws. Totalling out to +4 freebies, which I'm gonna spend on making him better at hitting things with crowbars and more infernal fame.
Aug 18, 2023 10:34 pm
I still have some backstory stuff to sort out, but I'd like to present my character, by the name of Dick "Devil" Griffin. Even before he was possessed by a spirit of fire and darkness, he was called the Devil. The leader of a small gang of shin-busting, motorcycle riding hooligans known as the Brass Bulls, he gained his nickname both for his particular cruelty and occasional arsonistic tendencies, and the cutaneous horn that emerged from a burnt patch of flesh on the upper left side of his face, an injury sustained by his own hand, when he forgot proper safety procedures regarding improvised explosive and damn near blew his head off. The gang leader kept this horn expertly manicured, a stark reminder of his deadliness. Under new management, the horn remains, though its growth has certainly increased, and its texture started edging towards something a little more ram-like. Dick still runs his gang similarly to how he did before his possession, though occasionally he will perform his own solo jobs, not for physical payment, but for something perhaps a little more metaphysical. Sometimes just for his own pleasure.
Aug 19, 2023 1:45 am
TheHumbug says:
I still have some backstory stuff to sort out, but I'd like to present my character, by the name of Dick "Devil" Griffin. Even before he was possessed by a spirit of fire and darkness, he was called the Devil. The leader of a small gang of shin-busting, motorcycle riding hooligans known as the Brass Bulls, he gained his nickname both for his particular cruelty and occasional arsonistic tendencies, and the cutaneous horn that emerged from a burnt patch of flesh on the upper left side of his face, an injury sustained by his own hand, when he forgot proper safety procedures regarding improvised explosive and damn near blew his head off. The gang leader kept this horn expertly manicured, a stark reminder of his deadliness. Under new management, the horn remains, though its growth has certainly increased, and its texture started edging towards something a little more ram-like. Dick still runs his gang similarly to how he did before his possession, though occasionally he will perform his own solo jobs, not for physical payment, but for something perhaps a little more metaphysical. Sometimes just for his own pleasure.
Interesting… what are your House and Faction?
Aug 19, 2023 2:06 am
Devil, and Faustian. My sheet is in the game.
Aug 19, 2023 1:10 pm
I have decided to go with the Cryptic Devourer, with Lore of Beasts as my primary lore. I'm still having a think about what mortal I posess, but I did find a neat picture for my apocalyptic form.
[ +- ] Apocalyptic Form
Last edited August 19, 2023 1:11 pm
Aug 19, 2023 8:39 pm
So we've got Faustian Devil, Cryptic Devourer, and some manner of Fiend so far?

@eldarin what are looking at for your primary Lore? Fiend was also high on my list of interest, and if we don't walk the same path, might not be a problem.

Sounds like maybe Patterns (Know It All)?
Last edited August 19, 2023 8:41 pm
Aug 19, 2023 9:32 pm
@emsquared yes Patterns it is for me.
Aug 19, 2023 9:55 pm
I'm thinking Scourge Reconciler. Debating Winds or Awakening, slightly edging towards winds.
Aug 19, 2023 10:51 pm
Made a table to help track who is making what.

PlayerCharacterHouseFaction
emsquaredFiend
KhulodDevourerCryptic
TheHumbugDick "The Devil" GriffinDevilLuciferan
eldarinEthan Bennett/RazielFiend
MaJuniorScourgeReconciler
Camilla
Aug 19, 2023 11:29 pm
I do want to mention about the Infernal Court discussed in the Los Angeles thread.

As far as the Court goes, your characters can have as little or as much interaction with it as you’d like. The Court is there, operating in the background. It’s up to you to decide how affiliated you’d like to be with it. The Court can provide some useful resources and is a good way of connecting with other demons, but can itself be a source of problems due to the politics involved.
Aug 20, 2023 1:40 am
I think my own character wouldn’t have a lot of affiliation with the court, though he might sometimes work in tandem with their interests. He isn’t opposed, just not super aligned, which might still lead him to be considered a partial threat.
Aug 20, 2023 6:08 pm
Let me think, I'm checking the books right now.
Aug 20, 2023 6:13 pm
With what I plan with regards to Lore of Patterns, Legacy and even just mundane knowledge - I could imagine the court having reached out in the past. I don't see a political career for myself though.
Aug 21, 2023 5:52 am
In the first post of the thread, I have placed a link for the Demon Players Guide. I decided to provide it here since it's kind of a must-have for Demon games. The Player's Guide has a brief section of errata on p. 14, a chapter with Merits and Flaws, and rules for building your own apocalyptic form (rather than using the "visages" provided in the core book). It also elaborates greatly on various Backgrounds.

Don't want to burden new players with more material to read, but if you have the time and inclination then it might be worth giving the Players Guide a quick look.
Aug 21, 2023 4:14 pm
Taking in the Players Guide is largely why I haven't settled on a character yet.

It's made me re-think the viability of a Malefactor, primary Forge.

Also the custom apocalyptic form options and Rituals have been really cool to learn about too.
Aug 22, 2023 2:07 am
@Tequila_Mockingbird so I'm pretty much split dead even between two concepts.

1. Faustian Malefactor, who possessed their mortal host (a greedy trust funder) during basically a botched summoning ritual. I think it would be interesting to explore what the mortal retaining majority control (at first) would look like, and so the demon would start out as just a voice in the back of their head-type of situation. Slowly eroding their humanity until they take full control. Primary Lore of Forge, but with at least 1 dot in many others (eventually) to facilitate creating Relics.

2. Cryptic Fiend, who possessed their mortal host (a street-kid tagger) after a traumatic/deadly accident. The mortal is dead here, so the demon is in full control, but is plagued by the memories of life that are the reason the mortal was so desperate to not to die (and let the demon in), struggling to remember anything of it's angelic past. Primary Lore of Portals, cuz it's just so super friggin cool, particularly when combined with Light, so that it can eventually use illusions to make people walk through it's portals into traps or whatever.

I think both of those concepts though have a couple big questions surrounding what I'd like to do with them that may make them more or less viable.

RE: Malefactor - crafting systems can break a lot of games, but the Relic crafting system in the Players Guide seems pretty damn tight to me, when I put my GM-hat on. As a player, what concerns me is I'd be going 4 dots into Forge, and so I'd ofc want to have the opportunity to try to craft some Enchanted Relics from time to time, but that can take days. And projects like that may not fit into the narrative pacing of just any ol' campaign. I don't want my coolest thing to be impractical to use, so can you tell me whether or not it seems to you like there would be the "narrative space"/in-game time to use that Evocation?

RE: Fiend, with Lore of Portals, the value of that lore unfortunately depends I think A LOT on what the ST considers a portal. Doors and windows. Great. But that's pretty limited, and doesn't allow for much creative use of the Lore. What about car doors? What about the trunk? What about cupboard/cabinet doors? What about a toilet bowl lid? What about a suitcase or even briefcase? All are hinged covers to separate/discreet spaces, but are they portals?

Thank you for your time you're putting into all our questions and things.
Last edited August 22, 2023 2:10 am
Aug 22, 2023 5:53 pm
emsquared says:
@Tequila_Mockingbird so I'm pretty much split dead even between two concepts.

1. Faustian Malefactor, who possessed their mortal host (a greedy trust funder) during basically a botched summoning ritual. I think it would be interesting to explore what the mortal retaining majority control (at first) would look like, and so the demon would start out as just a voice in the back of their head-type of situation. Slowly eroding their humanity until they take full control. Primary Lore of Forge, but with at least 1 dot in many others (eventually) to facilitate creating Relics.

2. Cryptic Fiend, who possessed their mortal host (a street-kid tagger) after a traumatic/deadly accident. The mortal is dead here, so the demon is in full control, but is plagued by the memories of life that are the reason the mortal was so desperate to not to die (and let the demon in), struggling to remember anything of it's angelic past. Primary Lore of Portals, cuz it's just so super friggin cool, particularly when combined with Light, so that it can eventually use illusions to make people walk through it's portals into traps or whatever.

I think both of those concepts though have a couple big questions surrounding what I'd like to do with them that may make them more or less viable.

RE: Malefactor - crafting systems can break a lot of games, but the Relic crafting system in the Players Guide seems pretty damn tight to me, when I put my GM-hat on. As a player, what concerns me is I'd be going 4 dots into Forge, and so I'd ofc want to have the opportunity to try to craft some Enchanted Relics from time to time, but that can take days. And projects like that may not fit into the narrative pacing of just any ol' campaign. I don't want my coolest thing to be impractical to use, so can you tell me whether or not it seems to you like there would be the "narrative space"/in-game time to use that Evocation?

RE: Fiend, with Lore of Portals, the value of that lore unfortunately depends I think A LOT on what the ST considers a portal. Doors and windows. Great. But that's pretty limited, and doesn't allow for much creative use of the Lore. What about car doors? What about the trunk? What about cupboard/cabinet doors? What about a toilet bowl lid? What about a suitcase or even briefcase? All are hinged covers to separate/discreet spaces, but are they portals?

Thank you for your time you're putting into all our questions and things.
I really like both concepts, especially the second one, though I have thoughts on the first one.

In Demon: The Fallen, the default assumption is that the demon is fully in control. When a demon possesses a mortal body, either the mortal's soul is ejected out of the body or gets buried deep inside. Either way, the demon is fully dominant. However, the demon has complete access to the mortal body's memories and emotions, which get incorporated into the demon's identity. Hence, if the mortal host loved someone, most likely, so will the demon, etc. The benefit is that the host's memories and humanity serve as a partial buffer against Torment, snapping the demon out of the trauma of Hell.

Given all that, your first concept would need to be tweaked if you want to use it. It could still work if you wanted to perhaps do it in reverse. For instance, the demon is in full control but finds more and more of the mortal's memories and feelings starting to influence his actions. I do like the idea of a mortal becoming possessed because he foolishly summoned a demon.

There will be some downtime between chapters. Maybe not every chapter, but certainly between story arcs. That would be the ideal time to make an enchanted item, as there are usually time jumps between my story arcs. But thanks for letting me know so I can take that into consideration. Unfortunately, being able to make items would be a fairly major investment, but I'd try to make sure you had opportunities to do so. Still, it may take a while (in real time) to make certain items, depending how involved or complex it is.
Aug 22, 2023 6:16 pm
As far as portals go, I'm gonna leave myself some wiggle room to decide on a case-by-case basis. But that said, I'd include doors, windows, car doors, trunks, large wardrobe, closets, etc. as portals. It should be something large enough for you to physically enter and walk through into a separate space. I would not count toilets or briefcases. Nor could you just hold up a picture frame and crawl through it.

From years of playing the Changeling: The Lost, I've had to be very specific about what a portal is, since changelings are all capable of portal travel.
Aug 22, 2023 9:32 pm
While I have the demon side figured out, I'm struggling a bit with my human side. My first ideas of picking 'a human who does something with animals' seems a bit bland or simple. Instead I'm trying to think of an individual who has a bestial outlook on life. I want to avoid sexual predators or individuals like Hannibal Lecter (not what I want to play for all our sanity). At the same time, I also want the character be more than a beast walking on two legs (I play Werewolf the Apocalypse for that, good fun). And that's where I'm stuck a bit. A cop is very cliche (and begging for trouble with a gangster in the group). I'm leaning towards someone who prowls the night life or may be a musician of some sort.
Aug 22, 2023 11:06 pm
Just a passing thought... what about a stand-up comic?

Some comics are known for truly biting wit, and I've seen some get downright savage when someone in the crowd heckles them. Maybe part of your schtick is heckling the crowd?

That puts you dead center in the nightlife, an outlet for (verbal) savagery, and doesn't put you at odds with anyone in the group.

Like I said though... just a thought.
Aug 23, 2023 1:22 am
Tequila_Mockingbird says:
Given all that, your first concept would need to be tweaked if you want to use it. It could still work if you wanted to perhaps do it in reverse. For instance, the demon is in full control but finds more and more of the mortal's memories and feelings starting to influence his actions. I do like the idea of a mortal becoming possessed because he foolishly summoned a demon.
Yea, it was actually a paragraph in the Players Guide that gave me the idea to have the mortal mostly in control, I'll see if I can find it and maybe there's something still workable there with it's guidance (I'll provide reference if I can find it)? Or, I can just flip it slightly to the other side then, or as you suggest, go about it in reverse. Not a deal breaker.

As for the Relic crafting, I wouldn't want to do anything crazy, just something that's cool and uses the dots right? :P
Tequila_Mockingbird says:
As far as portals go, I'm gonna leave myself some wiggle room to decide on a case-by-case basis. But that said, I'd include doors, windows, car doors, trunks, large wardrobe, closets, etc. as portals. It should be something large enough for you to physically enter and walk through into a separate space. I would not count toilets or briefcases. Nor could you just hold up a picture frame and crawl through it.

From years of playing the Changeling: The Lost, I've had to be very specific about what a portal is, since changelings are all capable of portal travel.
Wiggle room is more than fair.

I bolded what seems to be the operative narrative>mechanics translation point, above, and that sounds potentially more restrictive than what I conceive of as an interesting angelic/demonic power tho.

EDIT: *SNIP* let's not worry about it, and I'll just move on with the Malefactor.

Thanks again, Tequila.
Last edited August 24, 2023 2:11 pm
Aug 23, 2023 1:43 am
Quote:
Yea, it was actually a paragraph in the Players Guide that gave me the idea to have the mortal mostly in control, I'll see if I can find it and maybe there's something still workable there with it's guidance (I'll provide reference if I can find it)?
DtF Player's Guide, p. 39, first paragraph, second column: "Enslave the Demon". Follows on the "Choosing Possession", and "The Human Soul" sections.

Just seemed like an interesting opportunity to roleplay out in a "real" and dramatic way what is kind of a trite cartoonish trope: the ol' devil on your shoulder.

It would be a battle the mortal is losing, and the demon is probably good enough that the mortal doesn't even know they're losing until it's too late.

If you don't want me to do it, that's fine.
Last edited August 23, 2023 1:44 am
Aug 23, 2023 1:47 am
@Khulod I was struggling with "finding" my mortal host's character too, until I poked around the Players Guide.

It's a got a lot of good stuff in there to just get your gears turning, beginning with the "Anatomy of a Mortal" section, p. 25.
Aug 23, 2023 7:47 am
Getting my head around a couple concepts, but I need to look up the various lores first to see which fits.
Aug 24, 2023 5:02 am
Finally found a suitable portrait for Dick. Turns out having an overly specific facial design for your character just makes things harder for you.
Aug 24, 2023 7:50 am
Why not use midjourney or generative AI?
Aug 24, 2023 8:08 am
I despise AI art programs, and they’re also really bad with specifics, unless you want to go through far too much hassle to get the desired results. I’d rather just use an actual artist’s work, or photoshop something myself, and I’m too lazy for the latter.
Aug 24, 2023 8:31 am
Midjourney has just received an update which allows inpainting. It's very powerful and suited for this kind of transformations.
Last edited August 24, 2023 8:33 am
Aug 24, 2023 8:37 am
Interesting. Even so, there’s still the ethical aspect which keeps me away. I do play around with it every now and again, but I don’t like using it in any "official" capacity.
Last edited August 24, 2023 8:38 am
Aug 24, 2023 10:28 am
FWIW I yesterday had a very nice "conversation" with ChatGPT about my character concept and some details about Raziel - The Throne of Today and Tomorrow, or Ethan Bennett if we want to refer to the mortal vessel. It does make some dumb comments and shoots way over the top quite easily with it's own ideas and it especially messes up some of the DTF information (even made up archetypes when it came to nature and demeanor; had the Houses wrong and/or the related Lores), but it was good enough to have a "conversation" that helped making up my own mind.
Aug 24, 2023 2:19 pm
AI art generators I think are pretty clearly problematic, at least ethically as someone who believes artists should be paid for their work.

AI language learning models are problematic for a different reason (they will confidently present incorrect information as fact), but that's at least more of a caveat emptor situation...

I've used ChatGPT to brainstorm speculative fiction storylines set in the Tolkien universe, and it's been REALLY really cool for that.

I could definitely see it being useful for brainstorming DtF stuff. Particularly if you give it some good inputs at the start (i.e. the general goals and tone of DtF).
Aug 24, 2023 5:13 pm
emsquared says:
Quote:
Yea, it was actually a paragraph in the Players Guide that gave me the idea to have the mortal mostly in control, I'll see if I can find it and maybe there's something still workable there with it's guidance (I'll provide reference if I can find it)?
DtF Player's Guide, p. 39, first paragraph, second column: "Enslave the Demon". Follows on the "Choosing Possession", and "The Human Soul" sections.

Just seemed like an interesting opportunity to roleplay out in a "real" and dramatic way what is kind of a trite cartoonish trope: the ol' devil on your shoulder.

It would be a battle the mortal is losing, and the demon is probably good enough that the mortal doesn't even know they're losing until it's too late.

If you don't want me to do it, that's fine.
I do like the concept, but my concern is how that character would function with the group. Since the remainder of the PCs are full, in-control demons, I'm not sure why a mortal would be involved with their agendas and politics (unless we're talking thralls, of course). But I'm certainly open to any ideas or suggestions.
Aug 24, 2023 5:34 pm
Khulod says:
While I have the demon side figured out, I'm struggling a bit with my human side. My first ideas of picking 'a human who does something with animals' seems a bit bland or simple. Instead I'm trying to think of an individual who has a bestial outlook on life. I want to avoid sexual predators or individuals like Hannibal Lecter (not what I want to play for all our sanity). At the same time, I also want the character be more than a beast walking on two legs (I play Werewolf the Apocalypse for that, good fun). And that's where I'm stuck a bit. A cop is very cliche (and begging for trouble with a gangster in the group). I'm leaning towards someone who prowls the night life or may be a musician of some sort.
Personally, I think one of the easiest ways to figure out the mortal vessel is to determine how the body got possessed. Demons don't normally possess just anyone. They go for those who are spiritually vulnerable - people whose souls have becomes weakened. That often means people whose spirits were ground down from years of suffering or disenfranchisement, or those trapped in their own bodies and unable to express themselves (such as coma victims). For instance, a cop who has become severely downtrodden from years of seeing the worst of humanity might be vulnerable to demonic possession.

The book also indicates addicts and suicidal people are good candidates, but those a touchy subjects so I typically avoid that subject matter.

Anyway, it may be a good idea to decide why your demon targeted his current vessel in the first place; that may give you an idea of what the mortal's livelihood or circumstances were.
Aug 24, 2023 5:41 pm
emsquared says:
Wiggle room is more than fair.

I bolded what seems to be the operative narrative>mechanics translation point, above, and that sounds potentially more restrictive than what I conceive of as an interesting angelic/demonic power tho.

EDIT: *SNIP* let's not worry about it, and I'll just move on with the Malefactor.

Thanks again, Tequila.
I should specify, if it makes a difference, that you don't have to literally be able to walk into the portal. You could also crawl or drop in. In other words, it must be large enough for you to physically pass through.
Aug 24, 2023 5:51 pm
Tequila_Mockingbird says:
[I do like the concept, but my concern is how that character would function with the group. Since the remainder of the PCs are full, in-control demons, I'm not sure why a mortal would be involved with their agendas and politics (unless we're talking thralls, of course). But I'm certainly open to any ideas or suggestions.
Yea, I had identified the same issue, and there are a few things that can help it work naturally...

1. the host is an amateur Occultist (they got possessed while trying to "just" summon a demon) and so could reasonably WANT that window into the demons' world,
2. it would simply be a part of the "deal", the mortal doesn't get access to the sweet demon powers if they don't give too,
3. the mortal isn't in full control, just most, but so sometimes the demon is able steer,
4. aren't we playing the "good guy-demons" (such as they can be) and so aligning with more humanistic goals anyway (save the city?),
5. it's an arc, the demon is gaining full control, and I'm a player choosing to play with the group, I understand that's why I'm here, I'm not gonna pull a "It's what my (mortal) character would do..." at the expense of the campaign I signed up for

I think there are still big questions about how such a demon/situation would be received by the greater demon community, and so possibly the group, but I thought that was part of the interesting thing to play out - unless that answer is, other demons/the group saying "You can't be here.", but if they observe 5. just as I do, and look for the reasons why it works too, I think it could be interesting, entertaining, dramatic, and fun, all at the same time.
Aug 24, 2023 6:22 pm
emsquared says:
Tequila_Mockingbird says:
[I do like the concept, but my concern is how that character would function with the group. Since the remainder of the PCs are full, in-control demons, I'm not sure why a mortal would be involved with their agendas and politics (unless we're talking thralls, of course). But I'm certainly open to any ideas or suggestions.
Yea, I had identified the same issue, and there are a few things that can help it work naturally...

1. the host is an amateur Occultist (they got possessed while trying to "just" summon a demon) and so could reasonably WANT that window into the demons' world,
2. it would simply be a part of the "deal", the mortal doesn't get access to the sweet demon powers if they don't give too,
3. the mortal isn't in full control, just most, but so sometimes the demon is able steer,
4. aren't we playing the "good guy-demons" (such as they can be) and so aligning with more humanistic goals anyway (save the city?),
5. it's an arc, the demon is gaining full control, and I'm a player choosing to play with the group, I understand that's why I'm here, I'm not gonna pull a "It's what my (mortal) character would do..." at the expense of the campaign I signed up for

I think there are still big questions about how such a demon/situation would be received by the greater demon community, and so possibly the group, but I thought that was part of the interesting thing to play out - unless that answer is, other demons/the group saying "You can't be here.", but if they observe 5. just as I do, and look for the reasons why it works too, I think it could be interesting, entertaining, dramatic, and fun, all at the same time.
Well personally I'm fine working that concept into the game. As long as the other PCs are cool with an in-control mortal in the group. I'll throw it out to the other PCs to see what they think. If no one has any serious objections, then I'm fine with it as well.

The greater demon community, as you said, would have some concerns. However, since the possession is a battle that you're losing, you might be grudgingly tolerate by some of the Fallen. Ironically, there are also low-Torment Fallen who would find the "slow takeover" of your vessel to be disturbing, given that most possessions happen almost instantly or without the mortal host even being aware (some demons might view that as a small mercy). It would be an interesting dynamic to play out.
Aug 24, 2023 6:36 pm
I do want to clarify, also, that redemption isn't necessarily about returning to God's service or about being the Good Guys. In the context of Demon: The Fallen, redemption means returning to the angels that you were before the Fall; before you became Tormented. Torment is the quality that turned you all into demons, and so shedding your Torment will hopefully redeem you (or so the theory goes). Since Torment is a measure of your anguish, hatred, and trauma, redemption for the Fallen ultimately means being able to move on from your pain and let go of Hell's hold upon you. Obviously, that's a bit different from real world redemption in the Christian sense (which means being delivered from sin and its consequences), but it's still a salvation of sorts.

A lot of behavior that lowers Torment does overlap with behavior that would win you God's favor. Your characters don't need to be heroes or saints to be redeemed, although a total disregard for humanity and morality also won't improve your Torment. Hence, demons make great anti-heroes.
Aug 24, 2023 6:38 pm
Quote:
The greater demon community, as you said, would have some concerns.
Is there some way that anyone/a demon could tell/know the human was "at the wheel", other than picking up on subtle (or not) cues? Particularly as opposed to maybe a demon that is just struggling with their mortals memories or missing their angelic ones?

Like, is there an "indicator light" of some sort that I could/would just be looked at and seen as "demon is not at home"?

(Sorry I'm working on my character sheet rn so can be very responsive, I'm not stalking your replies 😅)
Last edited August 24, 2023 6:42 pm
Aug 24, 2023 8:14 pm
emsquared says:
Quote:
The greater demon community, as you said, would have some concerns.
Is there some way that anyone/a demon could tell/know the human was "at the wheel", other than picking up on subtle (or not) cues? Particularly as opposed to maybe a demon that is just struggling with their mortals memories or missing their angelic ones?

Like, is there an "indicator light" of some sort that I could/would just be looked at and seen as "demon is not at home"?

(Sorry I'm working on my character sheet rn so can be very responsive, I'm not stalking your replies 😅)
As written, it doesn't seem as though a demon has any natural means of automatically identifying another demon in a mortal vessel. The first dot of Lore of the Celestials can do it, but that's a Namaru Lore and they'd need to activate it. Likewise, supernatural awareness won't reveal anything other than affirming you aren't a normal human.

Consequently, your character could potentially pass himself off as a fully possessed vessel, especially for brief encounters with other fallen. Extended interactions, however, might make some demons suspicious. There are "tests" a demon could also use on you, but they'd need reason to be suspicious first.
Aug 24, 2023 8:41 pm
Forgot to mention that I put a new link in the first post of the thread, It's for the sourcebook Houses of the Fallen. The book doesn't really have many rules or options other than some new Rituals and Relics. Rather it provides lots of fluff and gives advice for building a demon character based on its House. I don't want to burden people with more to read, but it might be worth a look, especially if you are struggling with character creation ideas.
Aug 24, 2023 9:04 pm
I'm reading it now! The chapter on the Devourers is very interesting for me so far.
Aug 24, 2023 10:09 pm
Tequila_Mockingbird says:
Consequently, your character could potentially pass himself off as a fully possessed vessel, especially for brief encounters with other fallen. Extended interactions, however, might make some demons suspicious. There are "tests" a demon could also use on you, but they'd need reason to be suspicious first.
Right, and I think there's a lot of interesting, entertaining, and fun interactions to be had in those types of moments...

I don't see where I have anything mechanical to gain in this, so I'm not trying to game anything, I just read the "Unearthing the Demon" section of the Players Guide and the various kind of stages of Possession they describe there and thought, "This is by far the most interesting part about a DtF character's development." for me.

So I would like to dwell in each a bit.
Aug 25, 2023 1:52 pm
How far are the others? I need to finish up on the back story and questions and pin down how I spend the freebies, but should be able to apply a character this weekend - hopefully. Am I ahead or behind the rest of you?
Aug 25, 2023 2:12 pm
Mostly just typing out backstory and questions. Will be done this weekend for sure. Maybe today if I don't hear from my boss and get an unexpected day off.
Aug 25, 2023 2:43 pm
eldarin says:
How far are the others? I need to finish up on the back story and questions and pin down how I spend the freebies, but should be able to apply a character this weekend - hopefully. Am I ahead or behind the rest of you?
I’m fully done, except for maybe a little bit of backstory refinement for the vessel.
Aug 25, 2023 2:58 pm
Need to pull together Nature and Demeanor, Merits and Flaws, and Visage/Apocalyptic Form stuff, but otherwise done. Gonna work on those more later today, and could finish up then.

Haven't fleshed out Thralls/Pacts yet either but have general ideas and could do so on the fly.
Aug 25, 2023 5:13 pm
I figured out my human!

Now I'm wresting with the character sheet. What a monster of a template...
Aug 25, 2023 5:21 pm
Khulod says:
I figured out my human!

Now I'm wresting with the character sheet. What a monster of a template...
I made five extra sheets for my little minionsfriends, so I know exactly what you’re talking about…
Aug 25, 2023 5:22 pm
Khulod says:
I figured out my human!

Now I'm wresting with the character sheet. What a monster of a template...
Lol yeah sorry. I went overboard with it. My character sheet is purely optional though. Feel free to use something else if you think id' be easier.

Planning to begin the game some time next week, so everyone still has about a week to submit.
Aug 25, 2023 5:39 pm
TheHumbug sent a note to Tequila_Mockingbird
Aug 26, 2023 2:16 pm
In the next few days, I plan to add a thread summarizing the demon-specific systems in the game, including faith harvesting, thralls, the apocalyptic form, etc. Just haven’t had time to get around to it. Additionally, I still need to finish the section in the rules thread for Health and Recovery.

My goal is to consolidate as much of the mechanics in the threads as possible, so you can conveniently reference rules on the site rather than having to search through various PDFs.
Aug 26, 2023 6:38 pm
What's the difference between Follower and Pact? If I get it right, a Follower just works for you, a Pact got something for you and you get Faith out of it, if you want to have a Thrall (someone providing you with Faith and Work) it's one point in each for one NPC...

So, I will potentially (if points allow) have a personal assistant that I would also have a pact with - that's Pact 1 and Follower 1, right?
Aug 26, 2023 6:43 pm
Damn, I just realise that my background would demand for like Resources 3 or 4 - him being a university professor. But I actually didn't think to have access to vast amount of money (and spending the points on it) - any ideas how to reconcile mechanics and background for this?

I guess a reliable drain of wealth could do, but the only thing that comes to mind is something like child support - but that would be a drastic change to the background as well...?
Aug 26, 2023 7:13 pm
I believe that thrall is just the word for a person you have a pact with, at least as far as I’ve seen.

As for the university professor, perhaps you might have some project the university won’t fully finance you for, requiring you to use your own money? Or perhaps you’re just underpaid :P
Last edited August 26, 2023 7:13 pm
Aug 26, 2023 7:26 pm
Quote:
I believe that thrall is just the word for a person you have a pact with, at least as far as I’ve seen.
I think what I tried to say is that if you have access to your thrall and send them do something for you, you need to give them a point of Follower. With Pact alone, the thrall will not provide anything but a daily dose of Faith.
Aug 26, 2023 8:18 pm
Live outside your means. Bigger house, nicer cars.
Aug 26, 2023 8:27 pm
eldarin says:
What's the difference between Follower and Pact? If I get it right, a Follower just works for you, a Pact got something for you and you get Faith out of it, if you want to have a Thrall (someone providing you with Faith and Work) it's one point in each for one NPC...

So, I will potentially (if points allow) have a personal assistant that I would also have a pact with - that's Pact 1 and Follower 1, right?
Yes, you’re correct. The Thrall provides a steady source of Faith, while the Follower is a servant and does things for you.

If you want the same NPC to be both a Thrall and a Follower, then yes you’d need a dot in each Background. However if something happens to that individual, then you’re losing both a servant and a source of Faith.
Aug 26, 2023 8:34 pm
eldarin says:
Damn, I just realise that my background would demand for like Resources 3 or 4 - him being a university professor. But I actually didn't think to have access to vast amount of money (and spending the points on it) - any ideas how to reconcile mechanics and background for this?

I guess a reliable drain of wealth could do, but the only thing that comes to mind is something like child support - but that would be a drastic change to the background as well...?
Well, as long as you gain no real benefit from having your wealth, you can say you’re as wealthy as you’d like. But the moment you try to leverage that into any sort of mechanical or narrative benefit, you’d need the matching Resources. So if it’s just for fluff and role playing, it’s not really important to have the necessary dots in the Resources Background. Still, having the dots would probably make the most sense.

Trying to buy expensive items, bribe others with large sums of money, or use your wealth to gain access to an exclusive club - those would all be situations in which you’d require the Background.
Aug 26, 2023 8:44 pm
MaJunior says:
Live outside your means. Bigger house, nicer cars.
I do like this as a possible explanation
Aug 26, 2023 9:17 pm
My sheet is up! I just need to think of the people I have pacts with.
Aug 26, 2023 9:18 pm
Tequila_Mockingbird says:
If you want the same NPC to be both a Thrall and a Follower, then yes you’d need a dot in each Background. However if something happens to that individual, then you’re losing both a servant and a source of Faith.
On the flip side, if that individual is imbued with power it can take care of itself. Just don't bring it to a fight with an Earthbound. :)
Last edited August 26, 2023 9:19 pm
Aug 27, 2023 3:13 am
Realized I had more pacts than I did followers, so I had to fiddle around with things, and Major didn't make the cut. The five horsemen are reduced to four. Oh well.
Aug 27, 2023 12:28 pm
eldarin says:
What's the difference between Follower and Pact? If I get it right, a Follower just works for you, a Pact got something for you and you get Faith out of it, if you want to have a Thrall (someone providing you with Faith and Work) it's one point in each for one NPC...

So, I will potentially (if points allow) have a personal assistant that I would also have a pact with - that's Pact 1 and Follower 1, right?
Another thought, how bad an idea would it be to start without even a single source of Faith? It's less about the Background points, I could keep one or two reserved, but more about playing out the Pact rather then me now just making something up on my own.
Aug 27, 2023 3:26 pm
eldarin says:
eldarin says:
What's the difference between Follower and Pact? If I get it right, a Follower just works for you, a Pact got something for you and you get Faith out of it, if you want to have a Thrall (someone providing you with Faith and Work) it's one point in each for one NPC...

So, I will potentially (if points allow) have a personal assistant that I would also have a pact with - that's Pact 1 and Follower 1, right?
Another thought, how bad an idea would it be to start without even a single source of Faith? It's less about the Background points, I could keep one or two reserved, but more about playing out the Pact rather than me now just making something up on my own.
I wouldn’t say that it’s necessarily a bad idea. It just means you’ll have to hustle more to get that Faith pool restored. You’ll also need to be a bit more judicious than the others about how you expend it, as you can’t rely on a steady supply of Big F energy to refill the tank.
Aug 27, 2023 3:31 pm
TheHumbug says:
Realized I had more pacts than I did followers, so I had to fiddle around with things, and Major didn't make the cut. The five horsemen are reduced to four. Oh well.
At least "four horsemen" has some Biblical congruity to it. But you can always gain additional thralls in the future.
Aug 27, 2023 3:41 pm
Still playing with concepts
Sep 1, 2023 11:09 pm
How are everyone’s characters coming? Anyone have any remaining questions?
Sep 1, 2023 11:16 pm
Just a sort of random question I figured I'd ask...

The Pacts background alots you people who provide a daily dose of Faith.

Maybe I missed it, but are there special rules for collecting Faith? Like do you have to see the person? Is it automatic? Is there a distance limit?
Sep 2, 2023 3:48 am
The rules for harvesting Faith are described starting on page 249. The section about "Offered Faith" on page 250 goes into detail about Faith provided through Pacts. Once a Pact has been established, the demon is able to harvest Faith every day, at the break of dawn. Distance has no impact on this process. If the demon and Thrall are in different time zones, the Faith is generated when dawn arrives for the mortal.

Thralls don't have a Faith rating, but they do have a Faith Potential. For the average person, it's at a 2. Demons can typically harvest up to half of the Thrall's Faith Potential. That means most demons get a single point of Faith each day, per Thrall.
Sep 2, 2023 4:07 am
(Tequila has also graciously allowed me to use the thrall-crafting rules detailed in Damned and Deceived, which go a bit more into faith, so you could technically have a thrall who you get two or even three faith from per day, but it would come at a cost of making them a lot less useful and not very reliable. I think it's more fun to have a thrall that can turn into a big angry guy ngl)
Last edited September 2, 2023 4:07 am
Sep 2, 2023 12:52 pm
I have not done my thralls yet but otherwise I'm ready to go.

Edit: They are also less likely to come into play, since my character is all about self-reliance and survival and that reflects in the Thralls he would have.
Last edited September 2, 2023 1:00 pm
Sep 2, 2023 8:13 pm
Quote:
I have not done my thralls yet but otherwise I'm ready to go.
I am nowhere near that unfortunately. Instead I am questioning most of my mortal background story.
Last edited September 2, 2023 8:14 pm
Sep 2, 2023 8:43 pm
My hope is to try to get the game started sometime next week. Probably by Friday.
Sep 4, 2023 4:17 pm
I haven't detailed my Pacts/Thralls either, but I Believe I have all the mechanical stuff done.
Sep 7, 2023 5:58 pm
I'm not the GM, but just like... checking in on people's progress with characters?
Sep 7, 2023 8:38 pm
TheHumbug says:
I'm not the GM, but just like... checking in on people's progress with characters?
About half of the characters have been submitted. Since it’s been over three weeks, I’m gonna set a deadline for character submissions. If you have yet to do so, please turn in your character by Tuesday the 12th of September. Let me know if you have questions or need any help.
Sep 7, 2023 10:42 pm
I'm ready to Devour(er)!
Sep 8, 2023 4:35 pm
Looks like my character's been approved! I need to figure out a new demon name though, because I told my old one (Vovalig) to my wife while I was talking about this game to her, and she said it sounded like... a different/actual word that a badass demon probably would prefer not to have associated with their name >.<
Sep 8, 2023 4:40 pm
You could try just grabbing an "actual" demon's name, or you could try playing around with some Hebrew root words, and just slap "el" on the end of it. Or, hell, you could go with latin roots, or even greek. I spent a whole an afternoon playing around with names until I settled on my final one.
Sep 8, 2023 4:52 pm
Yea, I spent a good deal of time looking at the Ars Goetia - Lesser Key of Solomon list of Dukes/Marquis/Kings etc., picking out sounds and "feels" that I liked to get to the one I had. Will do the same to develop the new one.
Sep 8, 2023 6:18 pm
Deadlines are good. I'll end up shuffling two points around my sheet endlessly as I weigh stupid little options to fine tune choices that may or may not even matter.

I have a name though, and figured out my sources of faith. I just need to pull the trigger and click on submit.
Last edited September 8, 2023 6:19 pm
Sep 8, 2023 6:36 pm
I'll finish my character before the weekend is up.
Sep 8, 2023 6:36 pm
I'll finish my character before the weekend is up.
Sep 9, 2023 10:49 am
I didn't make it yet and I think I won't - if I am the last one y'all wait for, then please don't. I wish you a lot of fun and hope you'll have a great story to tell.
Sep 9, 2023 6:13 pm
eldarin says:
I didn't make it yet and I think I won't - if I am the last one y'all wait for, then please don't. I wish you a lot of fun and hope you'll have a great story to tell.
No worries. Thanks for letting me know.
Sep 12, 2023 2:56 pm
Submitted. I think I got everything. Let me know what I missed if there's anything.
Last edited September 12, 2023 2:57 pm
Sep 12, 2023 3:53 pm
MaJunior says:
Submitted. I think I got everything. Let me know what I missed if there's anything.
Thanks MaJunior. I just need a couple days to go over all the characters and write up a post. I should have the first post up for the game on Thursday.
Sep 17, 2023 1:43 am
Sorry everybody. I’ve been working double shifts the last few days, so I haven’t had time to sit down and write. I plan to try and get the first post for the game done tomorrow.
Sep 17, 2023 2:01 am
No problem tequila, life comes first.

I will say I'm still quite excited to get in character and play :)

Tho every time I think about getting in character with this character I'm a little intimidated 😆
Sep 19, 2023 4:02 pm
Hey @Tequila_Mockingbird

So I don't know about everyone else but I'm excited/eager to get into this character...

Would it be okay with you if we (or just I, if others aren't interested in doing something like this) created some sort of "introduction" post or thread that depicts a moment in our character's life, like either the possession of our mortal host, or maybe some vignette of the life of the mortal, before, and the life of the demon, after, possession? etc. To just kind of create a "preface" for the story/our character, and so we and others can start to familiarize ourselves with the characters, and just explore the tone, and things?
Sep 19, 2023 5:15 pm
That'd be fun!
Sep 19, 2023 7:05 pm
I second that.
Sep 23, 2023 8:06 am
emsquared says:
Hey @Tequila_Mockingbird

So I don't know about everyone else but I'm excited/eager to get into this character...

Would it be okay with you if we (or just I, if others aren't interested in doing something like this) created some sort of "introduction" post or thread that depicts a moment in our character's life, like either the possession of our mortal host, or maybe some vignette of the life of the mortal, before, and the life of the demon, after, possession? etc. To just kind of create a "preface" for the story/our character, and so we and others can start to familiarize ourselves with the characters, and just explore the tone, and things?
Hey sorry, meant to get back to you but totally forgot.

By all means, go ahead and do so if you still want to. I’m always interested in reading more about people’s characters. The more information I have, the easier it makes my job. World of Darkness games usually have a Prelude phase, so this could serve as a good stand-in for that.
Sep 26, 2023 8:34 pm
Thanks for the preludes, eveyone! I’ll dig into those tonight. I plan to make the next post today. Just wanted to give everyone a chance to post first.
Sep 28, 2023 8:07 am
Didn't realize some have started. Apologies for the delay in submitting.

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