Character Creation

FWIW I yesterday had a very nice "conversation" with ChatGPT about my character concept and some details about Raziel - The Throne of Today and Tomorrow, or Ethan Bennett if we want to refer to the mortal vessel. It does make some dumb comments and shoots way over the top quite easily with it's own ideas and it especially messes up some of the DTF information (even made up archetypes when it came to nature and demeanor; had the Houses wrong and/or the related Lores), but it was good enough to have a "conversation" that helped making up my own mind.

AI art generators I think are pretty clearly problematic, at least ethically as someone who believes artists should be paid for their work.

AI language learning models are problematic for a different reason (they will confidently present incorrect information as fact), but that's at least more of a caveat emptor situation...

I've used ChatGPT to brainstorm speculative fiction storylines set in the Tolkien universe, and it's been REALLY really cool for that.

I could definitely see it being useful for brainstorming DtF stuff. Particularly if you give it some good inputs at the start (i.e. the general goals and tone of DtF).

I do like the concept, but my concern is how that character would function with the group. Since the remainder of the PCs are full, in-control demons, I'm not sure why a mortal would be involved with their agendas and politics (unless we're talking thralls, of course). But I'm certainly open to any ideas or suggestions.

Personally, I think one of the easiest ways to figure out the mortal vessel is to determine how the body got possessed. Demons don't normally possess just anyone. They go for those who are spiritually vulnerable - people whose souls have becomes weakened. That often means people whose spirits were ground down from years of suffering or disenfranchisement, or those trapped in their own bodies and unable to express themselves (such as coma victims). For instance, a cop who has become severely downtrodden from years of seeing the worst of humanity might be vulnerable to demonic possession.

The book also indicates addicts and suicidal people are good candidates, but those a touchy subjects so I typically avoid that subject matter.

Anyway, it may be a good idea to decide why your demon targeted his current vessel in the first place; that may give you an idea of what the mortal's livelihood or circumstances were.

I should specify, if it makes a difference, that you don't have to literally be able to walk into the portal. You could also crawl or drop in. In other words, it must be large enough for you to physically pass through.

Yea, I had identified the same issue, and there are a few things that can help it work naturally...

1. the host is an amateur Occultist (they got possessed while trying to "just" summon a demon) and so could reasonably WANT that window into the demons' world,
2. it would simply be a part of the "deal", the mortal doesn't get access to the sweet demon powers if they don't give too,
3. the mortal isn't in full control, just most, but so sometimes the demon is able steer,
4. aren't we playing the "good guy-demons" (such as they can be) and so aligning with more humanistic goals anyway (save the city?),
5. it's an arc, the demon is gaining full control, and I'm a player choosing to play with the group, I understand that's why I'm here, I'm not gonna pull a "It's what my (mortal) character would do..." at the expense of the campaign I signed up for

I think there are still big questions about how such a demon/situation would be received by the greater demon community, and so possibly the group, but I thought that was part of the interesting thing to play out - unless that answer is, other demons/the group saying "You can't be here.", but if they observe 5. just as I do, and look for the reasons why it works too, I think it could be interesting, entertaining, dramatic, and fun, all at the same time.

Well personally I'm fine working that concept into the game. As long as the other PCs are cool with an in-control mortal in the group. I'll throw it out to the other PCs to see what they think. If no one has any serious objections, then I'm fine with it as well.

The greater demon community, as you said, would have some concerns. However, since the possession is a battle that you're losing, you might be grudgingly tolerate by some of the Fallen. Ironically, there are also low-Torment Fallen who would find the "slow takeover" of your vessel to be disturbing, given that most possessions happen almost instantly or without the mortal host even being aware (some demons might view that as a small mercy). It would be an interesting dynamic to play out.

I do want to clarify, also, that redemption isn't necessarily about returning to God's service or about being the Good Guys. In the context of Demon: The Fallen, redemption means returning to the angels that you were before the Fall; before you became Tormented. Torment is the quality that turned you all into demons, and so shedding your Torment will hopefully redeem you (or so the theory goes). Since Torment is a measure of your anguish, hatred, and trauma, redemption for the Fallen ultimately means being able to move on from your pain and let go of Hell's hold upon you. Obviously, that's a bit different from real world redemption in the Christian sense (which means being delivered from sin and its consequences), but it's still a salvation of sorts.

A lot of behavior that lowers Torment does overlap with behavior that would win you God's favor. Your characters don't need to be heroes or saints to be redeemed, although a total disregard for humanity and morality also won't improve your Torment. Hence, demons make great anti-heroes.

Is there some way that anyone/a demon could tell/know the human was "at the wheel", other than picking up on subtle (or not) cues? Particularly as opposed to maybe a demon that is just struggling with their mortals memories or missing their angelic ones?

Like, is there an "indicator light" of some sort that I could/would just be looked at and seen as "demon is not at home"?

(Sorry I'm working on my character sheet rn so can be very responsive, I'm not stalking your replies 😅)

As written, it doesn't seem as though a demon has any natural means of automatically identifying another demon in a mortal vessel. The first dot of Lore of the Celestials can do it, but that's a Namaru Lore and they'd need to activate it. Likewise, supernatural awareness won't reveal anything other than affirming you aren't a normal human.

Consequently, your character could potentially pass himself off as a fully possessed vessel, especially for brief encounters with other fallen. Extended interactions, however, might make some demons suspicious. There are "tests" a demon could also use on you, but they'd need reason to be suspicious first.

Forgot to mention that I put a new link in the first post of the thread, It's for the sourcebook Houses of the Fallen. The book doesn't really have many rules or options other than some new Rituals and Relics. Rather it provides lots of fluff and gives advice for building a demon character based on its House. I don't want to burden people with more to read, but it might be worth a look, especially if you are struggling with character creation ideas.

I'm reading it now! The chapter on the Devourers is very interesting for me so far.

Right, and I think there's a lot of interesting, entertaining, and fun interactions to be had in those types of moments...

I don't see where I have anything mechanical to gain in this, so I'm not trying to game anything, I just read the "Unearthing the Demon" section of the Players Guide and the various kind of stages of Possession they describe there and thought, "This is by far the most interesting part about a DtF character's development." for me.

So I would like to dwell in each a bit.

How far are the others? I need to finish up on the back story and questions and pin down how I spend the freebies, but should be able to apply a character this weekend - hopefully. Am I ahead or behind the rest of you?

Mostly just typing out backstory and questions. Will be done this weekend for sure. Maybe today if I don't hear from my boss and get an unexpected day off.

I’m fully done, except for maybe a little bit of backstory refinement for the vessel.

Need to pull together Nature and Demeanor, Merits and Flaws, and Visage/Apocalyptic Form stuff, but otherwise done. Gonna work on those more later today, and could finish up then.

Haven't fleshed out Thralls/Pacts yet either but have general ideas and could do so on the fly.

I figured out my human!

Now I'm wresting with the character sheet. What a monster of a template...

I made five extra sheets for my little minionsfriends, so I know exactly what you’re talking about…

Lol yeah sorry. I went overboard with it. My character sheet is purely optional though. Feel free to use something else if you think id' be easier.

Planning to begin the game some time next week, so everyone still has about a week to submit.