Character Creation rules

LOL! I feel your pain!

The lack of clarity in the rules is a big reason I switched to 5e when it came out. I do miss the lively debates though!

You want lack of clarity, check out Anima some time. Beautiful game, and I absolutely love it, but it's translated over from Spanish, and sometimes the translation doesn't carry over very well.

Plus, you need more of a calculator to play it than you ever did D&D

I have to weigh in here because I'm confused. Where do all these free attacks come from? Am I reading this write in that the Magus is supposed to be getting 3-4 attacks/turn with no real penalties at level 2?

I'm not the GM, so I'm sorry if I'm overstepping my bounds here, but that sounds to me to be excessive, and not how the class features work. Also, I'm confused about Arcane Mark. Maybe I clicked the wrong link, but I don't understand where the free attack comes from? Am I missing something or just totally off topic? I ask because this seems like the kind of class everyone would want to play because it would be doing silly amounts of damage/turn.

It would only be 2 attacks at level 2, due to an ability that Magi have called Spellstrike. When they cast a spell with a range of touch they can deliver it through their weapon with a bonus attack. All attacks that round take a penalty of -2 that round.

Since Arcane Mark has a range of touch, it can be used to activate the Spellstrike ability, thus granting a free bonus attack.

I'm still back and forth on this. I look at it like this:

Most spells with a touch range have a casting time of 1 standard action...the same action as swinging a sword. Normally, that touch would be delivered with your bare hands through a melee touch attack and crit range of 20/x2, but Spellstrike lets you do it with a weapon instead, using that weapon's threat range and bonuses, but still only giving x2 damage on a critical. The benefit with Spellstrike is you add your weapon damage in with the spell's damage and effects. You get a weapon attack to deliver the spell as a part of the shell's standard action, not a free bonus attack with the spell's effect tacked into a weapon's damage.

Spellstrike, a standard action, can be rolled into a full round action like Spell Combat, but at a -2 penalty for all attacks and a concentration check for the spell (if cast defensively), granting a magus 2 attacks at level 2 at - 2/- 2. That's how I've always seen and ruled Spellstrike

I'm asking these questions because I often, meaning almost always, run games for my group(s). Since I'm so frequently a GM having issues surrounding the Magus, or any class, is useful for me beyond the scope of this game.

So, I guess the first part of my confusion is where does Arcane Mark grant an extra attack? The 0 level spell that was linked to only gave a sort of Arcane "brand" to the target of the spell. I don't see anything about an extra attack.

The second part is that, I only see one attack per turn. Basically, how I read Magus is that, you're permitted to cast a touch attack spell, and attack in one turn at level one. There's only one attack though. It's basically like you get an extra standard action each round if you are going to attack and/or cast a spell.

Spellstrike would then let you administer the spell you cast through your weapon, which would mean you could cast AND use the spell the same turn. I guess that's where I see Magus as truly useful, because normally with spells like Shocking Grasp, you cast and then administer the spell on the next turn.

There's still only one attack though.

Maybe I'm totally missing something, but I don't see where the extra attacks come from.

When you cast a spell that's a touch attack, you get to deliver the spell with a free action touch attack.

Spellstrike replaces that prep touch attack with a free weapon attack. Says so right in the description.

Therefore, when a magus makes their full attack with Spell Combat and Spellstrike they get to do their regular attacks and deliver the touch spell through a free action weapon attack (replacing the free action touch attack).

This is 100% how the magus works as written and how it was intended.

So, that's exactly what I've been advocating for. So what's the debate been about? I just wanted my two attacks at level two. Is it the whole cantrip thing that bugs you? Because if that's all, I won't do it. I just wanted to agree that it does work that way as written lol

I don't see that in class write-up.

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Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

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Like I said, I could be misunderstanding this, but I don't see anything that says you attack, cast a spell, AND use the spell in the same turn. To me the full round actions looks like it is casting and attacking in one turn. I'm not trying overrule irvanovich, I'm asking for the sake of asking. As far as I'm concerned, irvanovich has already ruled on this.

This also doesn't address the question I had about Arcane Mark.

When you cast a spell that allows a touch attack, you get to make that touch attack as a free action. Nothing in those descriptions changes that rule, so it's still in effect. Therefore: Attack and spell (in any order), then free action melee touch attack to deliver it (or weapon attack if you use Spellstrike)

Arcane Mark has a range of touch, and therefore gets the same benefit of a free action to apply it. The free action to apply it is instead used with Spellstrike to deliver it through the weapon as a free action.

It's well agreed upon by the Pathfinder community that this works as I've stated it. Some GMs don't allow it with cantrips because they think it's cheesy.

OH! I've been misunderstanding you the entire time. I shouldn't debate when I'm tired, angry, and distracted.

No, you've got your two attacks at level 2 if you use Spellstrike with touch spells in concert with Spell Combat. The cantrip thing does bug me a little bit, but that's just my own insecurities from being called a "power gamer" by my old group because I preferred using books like Advanced Player's Guide and Advanced Class Guide to create my characters, and not just the Core Rules.

Heck, I still got called one, even when I used strictly core materials. Pissed me off to no end, especially when I had to make a new character 4 times in one night. Sorry Naat! We just debated for the fun of it!

That's the fun if Pathfinder: Power gaming! Lol

Either way, do you want me to:

1. limit the number of times I use the cantrips with it

2. Not do it with cantrips at all
Or
3. Use it with cantrips uninhibited?

If you use it with cantrips, use the limits we discussed earlier. Int Modifier + 1/2 magus level.

That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure we're on the same page with this :-)

I got you, fam.

Cool. So I'm guessing this is settled now?