Out of Character Talk

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Sep 7, 2024 5:51 am
I'm saying there's a weird disconnect when you have a high passive score, but roll low.

I have a Monk in my IRL group with a passive perception of 27. When I roll a 2, and "only" have a 19 for my Perception check, it sucks to fail knowing my passive would have seen whatever it was but I made the "mistake" of actively engaging with the game.

I get why using passive as a floor is arguably bad, it takes away from a class feature (and a somewhat high level ability at that). I don't want to diminish anyone's build. It just sucks when a passive check would have succeeded, but an active check fails. Feels bad when playing the game is worse than not.
Sep 7, 2024 2:18 pm
I think this is more a problem of passive checks than anything. It makes you think you "shouldn't have tried" when I feel like you should try and being made to think you should have just said "here is my passive score. What happens?" Is less engaging.

It also makes me think that it could imply that you never roll perception. If someone is sneaking up on you, passive perception. Is there is something to find in the room, passive perception. If there is anything to point out, passive perception. I can't imagine you are only supposed to roll if an enemy you are aware of managed to hide and now you are actively seeking and never any other time.
Sep 7, 2024 4:44 pm
I disagree, when every skill check is technically an action. Perception isn't free... you look for the door/hidden enemy/trap trigger OR you attack the other enemy with your sword or spell.

The real issue is that your passives don't "turn off" just because you actively use the skill. You're still just as likely to notice something out of the corner of your eye when looking for something. Which makes the idea that you're suddenly bad at something you're good at because you tried... that much worse.
Sep 7, 2024 10:16 pm
I think there are 2 disconnects. First, I don't think passive perception was ever meant to represent someone's worse chance at actively searching. The book describes it as only used for "task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again", meaning if all you did was go to the roof and look around, "over and over again" is not defined as a set amount of time. It could be 1 minute, 10 minutes, or an hour. As such, a quick look, if that is all that is done, is never meant to trigger passive perception.

By this logic, my "you find it but it takes a long time" option could be seen as "if you fail, you can succeed with passive perception, but passive perception implies spending a long time"

Second, I think it was originally designed, as seen in the example in the quote above, to be used for stuff like traps and secret doors so that players don't ask to make perception checks in every room "just to be safe" and the DM can just say "listen, I know your passive perceptions, you don't have to ask as long as you stay in the room at least x minutes".
Sep 7, 2024 11:19 pm
Quote:
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Emphasis mine.
Sep 8, 2024 3:09 am
Just making sure. What part of the bolded portion is being emphasized in this situation?

This is the situation I see you in now:
You find out the enemy used the roof to swing in through the windows earlier. As you focus on finding the stolen item and the king's safe return to the castle, you pop up on the roof to see if there happened to be any evidence of who these people were, such as something that was dropped or torn off.

A roll was made, but unfortunately the dice decided to make 2 very low rolls. This could be interpreted one of two ways:
1. The dice decided there was nothing to find. These guys were efficient and did not make the kind of mistakes you had hoped they would.
2. Something is here, but for one reason or another it is too hard to find.

I proposed a 3rd option: Oh, instead of 1 or 2, failure means there is a twist/complication, rather than nothing or it being too hidden
Sep 8, 2024 3:27 am
I hope I do not come across as confrontational. This is only the 2nd high level one shot I have done in this site, but it seems so far I come across a different rule that I did not know I don't run the way others expect. The last one was about facing and how to handle monsters with gazes, and it appears this one is passive perception. If I do this enough I may create a catalog I add to any game saying "I came across this in past games. This is how I will rule it."

How I always ruled it was that it was what you used when you didn't know you had to roll. We just assumed you got a 10 on the d20 so I could do things secretly without making players paranoid.

I guess the 1st half reminds me of the taking 10 rule I read in Starfinder. Essentially, if you can do a task over and over for 10 minutes and the task would not be stopped if you constantly failed the roll, you could just say you rolled a 10 + modifiers and move on. The big emphasis is that you had to assume you were constantly failing, so if failing meant something broke or a person got hurt you couldn't do it since there were consequences. Have yet to run the system but these sound alike. In theory not noticing something like a secret door would not have consequences but not noticing a trap could, as you might trigger it, so one could take 10 and one you could not
Sep 8, 2024 2:07 pm
So, my point was that you said passive checks were for a task you did repeatedly over a period of time (an averaged result). And, while that is one use of them, I was clarifying it was not the only use.

But as to your question about how it applies to the rooftop:
Let's assume there is a clue of some sort.

Obviously it isn't in plain sight. It's "hidden," even if it can't actually choose to hide. The GM determines how well hidden the clue is -- the DC needed to spot it. Then, as GM we have a choice... we use passive perception to see if they notice the clue, or they make an active check to see if they find the clue.

The thing is, Perception is something you are always doing. (So are insight and investigation.) It isn't like athletics or proficiency in thieves' tools where you have to actively perform the action. When you look at how actions work in game, that's even more important to keep in mind.

Taking 10 (a mechanic that's shown up in a few systems, including an old version of D&D) covers the first half of passive checks -- the part where you have plenty of time to keep at it. Not so much the second half.
Sep 8, 2024 10:38 pm
Here's how I'm going to rule it for now. What's happened happened, and since a roll was made and not a request to use passive perception. As such, a 14 would not succeed (gotta hate when advantage can't give you a good roll or disadvantage robs you of a nat20), so you can either:
- say nothing is there and rejoin with the group
- use a fail forward option mentioned

As a reminder, the fail forward options I provided are not the only options, but they were, in summary:
- Off screen, someone was going to come back and pick up what they dropped. They see you pick it up but you don't see them, and now they know you are looking for them and have something that may help you do so
- There is an item, but there is a curse. It can be something like an affect from the bestow curse spell, or something you come up with that still has a downside that isn't negligible
- You do find something, but it takes you half an hour or more of searching, which either means you give up a short rest to do that while others rest, or (if losing a short rest would mean nothing to you) the enemy is able to take some extra time to do whatever is it they are doing by the time you find them (this is basically what passive perception would have been, since how long "repeatedly" is was not defined, so this would be the option you would have asked for passive perception earlier)

As for the future, if you want to use a passive for a skill, you have to do the following:
- confirm that failure wouldn't have an immediate consequence (can't passive disable a trap, as a failure would trigger it or break your tools)
- confirm you are okay with a minimum of 10 minutes doing the task, longer if DM thinks is necessary (DM may say 10 minutes would have consequences)
- state you want to use it, and thus do not roll any dice
Sep 8, 2024 10:59 pm
He found nothing.
Also...that's not at all how passive perception works.

Honestly? Just rule that you don't use passive checks for anything and call it good.
Last edited September 8, 2024 11:01 pm
Sep 8, 2024 11:02 pm
Okay, I'm not frustrated. i would like to know how passive perception is supposed to be run. i'm not going to guess, i would like to hear how you read it. Either I'm reading it wrong or we read it differently, but we don't read it the same way.
Sep 9, 2024 1:03 am
As you mentioned previously, I'm not trying to be confrontational. This is just a thing we see very differently.

Passive checks (as it isn't just Perception) is a mechanic has two aspects to it. You've leaned hard into one (an act performed repeatedly over time), but pretty much ignored the other.

Passive checks are constant. They're always on. So let's use Perception checks for examples... the GM or module sets the DC on how hard something is to notice. The first thing you do is check that DC against the passive perceptions present. If someone's passive perception is higher? They saw it. Done deal.

If they need to roll, their result shouldn't be lower than the passive check they already made. And that still may not be enough to see it, but people tend to skip past the passive check straight for an active check, and using the passive score is a baseline to save the GM a bit of work.

But anywho, that applies to any reason for the check... a hidden door, enemy rogue chooses to Hide as a bonus action, a clue left behind on a battlefield, someone slipping poison in a drink, or a lurking bugbear behind a tree at night. The passive check is always passively checking. If the hidden thing isn't well hidden, the ridiculously observant people of the world are simply going to notice it.

Remember for combat that active checks take an action, and passive checks become more important. Also remember the Observant feat exists.
Sep 9, 2024 3:11 am
okay, I think I better understand where you are coming from. The key to your understanding, from what I read, is the phrase "always on". The idea is that you are always observing your surroundings, and if that uses 10 + bonus, then theoretically if you roll for perception you are technically using 2 results: your always on result and your active result. If both rolls exist, whichever one succeeds means you succeeded. As such, if you roll a 9 on perception but have a passive of 13 and the DC was 12, it doesn't matter that you rolled a 9 because your passive succeeded so you succeeded since you always get it.

I will explain myself, but for the sake of play, my final ruling will be: no, I don't rule it this way.

I will say, however, that for stealth I do mostly agree. If you stealth in combat, your result is compared to the passive perception of all enemies (you have to have full or 3/4 cover or be heavily obscured or invisible to begin with), and you hide from those you succeed against and fail against those you roll under. Unless the circumstances are special, though, those that spot you will probably yell out where you are to others, so essentially in most occurrences you are rolling against the highest passive perception of the enemies. If you do hide from everyone, though, finding you requires either an action to seek (perception check) or for the enemy to stand it a place where the cover you use to hide no longer hides you (like if you hid behind a pillar but they walk around the pillar). Hiding in combat is complicated, but when in doubt try to get 3/4 cover or great, be heavily obscured/invisible, and/or ask an ally to create a distraction.

If you would like to hear my why, you can keep reading. Otherwise, we will go with that and continue the game Monday morning (it is sunday night for me, in case anyone is in another time zone).
[ +- ] My reasoning
Sep 9, 2024 6:12 am
[ +- ] Brief counterpoints...
But in summation... rule how you feel is best, and that's what we do. I don't have to like or agree with the decision, just abide by it. And that I can do.
Sep 9, 2024 12:40 pm
[ +- ] Small counter to counter
That said, I'll continue the game now. If anyone else has anything on there character sheet that they are now worried might not get ruled the way they wanted, please bring that up to me soon. If I'm expected to know what your character does just reviewing your character sheet, there could be a disconnect. If such a disconnect is discovered, i'll let you change decisions so that you can play something that will work the way you wanted.

For example, if you had taken mass suggestion in hopes that you could potentially end a fight in 1 casting if enough enemies failed and you didn't run that by me, you might be surprised when I interpret "reasonable" different than you.
Sep 9, 2024 2:10 pm
[ +- ] Counterpoint
Absolutely continue! It was never intended to halt the game, just serve as a discussion. As you learn more about high level one-shots, what works and what doesn't, how different players on the site play... those players also learn your GM style and sort of what to expect if we get picked for another game down the line. That's never a bad thing.
Sep 9, 2024 2:16 pm
I will say that perhaps in the future I may use passive perception for traps and secret doors, though this is only to spot them. I typically go with traps need perception to spot them but investigation to understand them. As such, if passive perception spotted a secret door, you would still need investigation to figure out how it is opened. In the same way, if a player automatically notices a trip wire for a trap or that a tile is slightly different than others, they would still need to use investigation to understand what the trip wire is likely connected to and why as well as to know the tile is a pressure plate. Players may always make assumptions, but they would be that, assumptions. That said, if a secret door was opened by pulling a book on a shelf and a player specifically said "I pull all the books off the shelf" they would pull a shaggy from scooby doo and accidentally figure out how it works. At the same time, perhaps there is a spirit in the room who used to own those books, and throwing all of them off the shelf could make them angry. You might not know.
Sep 9, 2024 2:26 pm
You may consider listing the Observant feat as one you don't allow in your game. The +5 to Passive Investigation is very much at odds.

Alternately, rework the +5 bonus to passive perception and passive investigation into something useable... a flat bonus (+2 or +3?) to Perception and Investigation skill checks perhaps? I'm sure there's a fix.
Sep 9, 2024 3:07 pm
To be fair, I haven't hear many youtubers or played with many DMs that ever use passive investigation. Passive perception is mentioned a lot by comparison, but outside of the observant feat it really isn't mentioned anywhere. Perhaps I would just give the player expertise in wisdom (perception) or intelligence (investigation) based on which ability score was increased. By lv 13, it is better than the old feat, as it boosts active and passive, and if the player wants expertise in the other one they have Skill Expert.
Sep 9, 2024 3:44 pm
Im not a big fan of either passives and im generally reluctant to take the obervant feat since its so rarely applied like I would expect if applied at all.

Both skills require the DM's to be proactive its easier with perception but trickier with investigation. I think both need to be revised and clarified.

The way i interpret the skills is that they are both always on... you are senses neve turn off... Do you smell smoke? See a shiney pennny, or hear someone say your name in the next room... you were never trying to smell anything, look for coins or eaves drop... you just do in naturally. Some people are just more aware of their surroundings.

Investigation is a bit trickier since it involves making connections... I think first you percieve... then you make connections... investigation... you notice a tan line around a finger... Passive investigation quickly concludes there must have been a ring on there for some time. Oversimplified but think how sherlock homes is able to quickly deduce things at a glance without staring.

Sounds like a homebrew solution needs to be worked out. I think your on the right track with advantage. Maybe if passive perception picks something up you can give a subtle hint of something amiss instead of full reveal kinda like spidey sences. If the player picks up on the hint, rolls the apropriate perception it is then with advantage.
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