Admin, OOC, and Launch Discussion

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DMJ

May 9, 2017 9:22 pm
Oxbox says:
I had noticed advantage rolled against the disarm I was assuming that was for the rage from the bull.
Right you guessed it.
Reread the Barbarian Rage rules: "You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws."
Check or Save, both are rolled twice.
No trouble asking.
May 9, 2017 9:28 pm
I learned something today! Awesome. Ok sorry for the confusion on my end.
May 10, 2017 6:19 am
Constablebrew says:
DMJ says:
Phantom
TR2

...
OOC:
Alright, listen up, Player's Club. Nobody better come at me trying to ask about:
What how far is that Movement up on that deck?
Can that Phantom still use his Action to Attack or was that like a Dash type Dash Glide Jump?
Yo J how far high is that hill slant and then plus how up is the measure on that back porch?

That area covered by the jump was:
FUCKING High x FUCKING Far x FUCKING Long Ways. That's the exact measurements.

I checked the rules, and it all complies on page number I-Don't-Give-a-Fuck.

Also there is a link to the quote of the rules here.
Phantom MENACE!!!
This made my day
Mine too! :-D
May 10, 2017 8:28 pm
Fuck! They are demons! LOL. Well, if our characters didn't believe in that shit, they certainly do now...
May 10, 2017 8:28 pm
I actually enjoy debating theory (which includes even simple things like game mechanics), in addition to designing rules for games (J can attest to that). That being said...

Even the guy who wrote the The Grappler's Manual put it this way, in the second paragraph in the section under 'Why Grappling' (direct quote here, and the math most definitely backs it up):

"Why grapple? Easy; Grappling is mechanically unfair."

Sidenote: His guide has one thing very backwards, and that is that you get your opponent prone before the grapple attempt (more on that below)

Very rarely do I find a game where the rules all make sense (they are, after all, just written by people). Which is why the best 'rule' ever found in a gaming book was in the original Dungeon Master's Guide (loose quote): "Everything in these 'rule books' (DM's Guide, Player's Handbook, etc) are just guidelines-- if they don't work for you, throw them out or change them." At the same time, I can, to a lesser extent, appreciate the "Fuck it, who cares, let's just play the game" approach. They both have their value, depending.

However, the latter approach has the potential down the road to enter that situation where the broken gaming mechanic is happening in front of the gaming group's eyes, and it is painfully obvious, and breaks the 'belief' and immersion in the game, which is why, in general, game makers try their damndest to have the rules make sense, so that the narrative and action in the game is believable (relative to the setting/game). When things don't make sense the effect inherently connects to the rest of the game.

Although sometimes games have to be pushed out the door and start being sold... maybe that's what happened with grapple-- "Bob, we don't have time to talk about this anymore, deadlines and all. I don't care if it doesn't make sense. Screw it. We can fix it later. It's D&D 5e so they'll buy it anyway."
Constablebrew says:
They don't have any special advantage nor disadvantage against the grappler, so the guy laying on the ground can tend to do quite a lot of damage to the grappler.
The guy prone on the ground is very much at a Disadvantage, while the standing grappler is at an Advantage. It's the whole point and focus of the Grappler build.

The formula for the grappler is simple:

(1) put opponent on ground (shield bash bonus action is an expedient way to do so, not to mention boosting the grappler's AC while the grappler ignores AC via grapple). This is the part where the author of the Grappler's Manual got it wrong. Put them on the ground first, then...

(2) grapple, immobilizing them in the prone position (with Advantage on the roll now because grapple is an attack and the defender is already prone)

(3) use additional attacks (depending on level) to attack defender with Advantage on the dice because they are prone.

(4) Rinse and repeat as necessary.

The beauty of this method (which is not salient now at our low level, due to only having one attack) is that the higher level the Grappler gets, giving them more attacks, the greater the benefits to this method, as the prone/grappled character has to use all of their attacks (no matter what level) to try and escape advantage/disadvantage prone hell, or simply allow the grappler to keep Advantage while they keep on fighting from the ground with Disadvantage. Besides the fact that grapple ignores combat mechanics completely (AC, Maneuvers, class abilities, some feats, everything), this is the big flaw: one attack to grapple an opponent, all attacks to try and escape. Even when J first had the Bull try to escape Qiu's grapple, he used one attack to do so because instinctively it probably made more sense, so it was reflexive to write the Bull's actions that way.

At some point one has to wonder if the prone guy is just better off staying prone and fighting at a Disadvantage, instead of potentially forfeiting all of their attacks to try and escape at a 50% chance. And this is where you start to realize the mechanics around grapple are broken, because there is really no good choice in this situation.
Constablebrew says:
There is also the consideration that AC is pretty abstract but the armor one wears shouldn't protect against grappling. The designers had to choose between using AC as it is, introducing an unarmored AC, or using the contested skill check. It's a tough call, but I think they made the right choice in the spirit of simplicity.
Even the slowest D&D player would be able to grasp "armor doesn't count for AC when grappling." And if they couldn't grasp it... well, I'm sure at least one of the guys at the table could explain it, or simply say: "this is what they need to hit." Just like every other combat mechanic (e.g., Maneuvers), use the 'to hit' for the grapple to connect and then apply a DEX or STR save. Simple. Or use 'to hit' and then introduce the contested skill checks, similar to a saving throw. But eliminating the entire combat mechanics as they apply to AC... bad call.

Sometimes rules can be overly simplistic, like shields are in standard 5e D&D-- +2 AC no matter what size, and no extra benefits vs ranged attacks? It's why I suggested the shield house rules changes to J for Dark Thrones, along with the idea for Combat Proficiency-- shouldn't characters be able to fight with a focus on defense? Rules are written by people, and just because they wrote the book that sells in digital and print format doesn't mean it can't be done better. Hell, for all we know the 5e team might admit to the brokenness of the grappling mechanic and fix it sometime down the road. Dig around a little and it's universally accepted as broken, just not officially. Yet.
Constablebrew says:
Still... grabbing hold of some guy whirling a sword around at you seems like a dangerous thing to do and maybe isn't simulated by the rules all that well.[/color]
It most definitely isn't simulated by the rules all that well. Not even close. Just like the guy said: "Why grapple? Easy; Grappling is mechanically unfair."
May 10, 2017 9:58 pm
Please pardon Ez and I as we geek out about rules.
[ +- ] Grapple debate
May 11, 2017 12:08 am
Constablebrew says:
Please pardon Ez and I as we geek out about rules.
[ +- ] Grapple debate
Before I even read the spoiler and the rest of what you wrote I had to post this. I actually laughed out loud for real. "While we geek out about rules"... well put, well out. Geek out. :)
May 11, 2017 12:31 am
I make use of the shield Master bonus Action shove every round before attacking, if they go down, you get advantage if not, who cares - I was going to attack anyway.
ezeriah says:

(2) grapple, immobilizing them in the prone position (with Advantage on the roll now because grapple is an attack and the defender is already prone)
Just to preface this, I've read this manual multiple times and have wanted to play a grappler for a long time. So I'm living vicariously through Qiu.

One of the big things about grappling mechanically, is it's not an attack roll. It's an athletics skill check. So I don't think advantage would apply. Grappling not being an attack is a huge part of that guide.
Last edited May 11, 2017 12:32 am
May 11, 2017 1:29 am
Oxbox says:
One of the big things about grappling mechanically, is it's not an attack roll. It's an athletics skill check. So I don't think advantage would apply. Grappling not being an attack is a huge part of that guide.
From the PHB:

"When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple."

It's an attack that literally uses one attack from your action.
Last edited May 11, 2017 1:30 am
May 11, 2017 1:29 am
I like your move to use the spoiler, CB. That way those who don't want to read our geekery don't have to.
[ +- ] Game mechanics geekery
May 11, 2017 2:57 am
[ +- ] Nerd alert
May 11, 2017 5:11 am
Totally enjoying the geekery. :-D
As posted in the Absences thread:
Jabes.plays.RPG says:
I'm already chest-deep in preps for Mother's Day weekend, which is traditionally an extremely busy time at the cake shop. I'll still pop up here and there but will be unreliable at best. So if I start holding things up please go ahead and move my PC's along. Thanks!
May 11, 2017 6:12 am
[ +- ] Geek Out
Last edited May 11, 2017 6:23 am
May 11, 2017 1:11 pm
Oxbox says:
[ +- ] Nerd alert
[ +- ] Geekery and Nerdosity continued
Last edited May 11, 2017 1:16 pm
May 11, 2017 10:32 pm
J, I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the crap out of this combat scene.

It is a massive breath of D&D fresh air to have a bunch of killers mauling each other with 'hardware and steel' (as you so aptly put it weeks ago). And the hint of the magical (Fingol) and the supernatural (Phantom's gravity defying leap) allow a heavy does of mystery in a setting like this, making the traces of the unknown all that more powerful and weighty. Battle scenes like this, without the constant flying fireballs and magical poofs and color streams, etc, make the fight more believable and give it that much more RPG gravity. Heavy metal with guys trying to leave one another in a pool of their own blood.

It is, without a doubt, magnitudes better than classic elves and wizards fare. Awesome dopeness.
May 11, 2017 10:52 pm
[ +- ] Waiting for a Goat attack, so Geek Debate in the meantime
Last edited May 11, 2017 10:55 pm
May 11, 2017 10:54 pm
Ezeriah says:
J, I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the crap out of this combat scene.

It is a massive breath of D&D fresh air to have a bunch of killers mauling each other with 'hardware and steel' (as you so aptly put it weeks ago). And the hint of the magical (Fingol) and the supernatural (Phantom's gravity defying leap) allow a heavy does of mystery in a setting like this, making the traces of the unknown all that more powerful and weighty. Battle scenes like this, without the constant flying fireballs and magical poofs and color streams, etc, make the fight more believable and give it that much more RPG gravity. Heavy metal with guys trying to leave one another in a pool of their own blood.

It is, without a doubt, magnitudes better than classic elves and wizards fare. Awesome dopeness.
I agree 100%. I find myself spending my limited gaming time getting caught up here and not posting as much in the two games I'm running nor the other game I'm playing in. I'll send your apologies to the players in the other games, DMJ.
May 11, 2017 11:24 pm
[ +- ] Geekery continued
Last edited May 11, 2017 11:33 pm
May 11, 2017 11:30 pm
Constablebrew says:
Ezeriah says:
J, I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the crap out of this combat scene.

It is a massive breath of D&D fresh air to have a bunch of killers mauling each other with 'hardware and steel' (as you so aptly put it weeks ago). And the hint of the magical (Fingol) and the supernatural (Phantom's gravity defying leap) allow a heavy does of mystery in a setting like this, making the traces of the unknown all that more powerful and weighty. Battle scenes like this, without the constant flying fireballs and magical poofs and color streams, etc, make the fight more believable and give it that much more RPG gravity. Heavy metal with guys trying to leave one another in a pool of their own blood.

It is, without a doubt, magnitudes better than classic elves and wizards fare. Awesome dopeness.
I agree 100%. I find myself spending my limited gaming time getting caught up here and not posting as much in the two games I'm running nor the other game I'm playing in. I'll send your apologies to the players in the other games, DMJ.
Yep, this is the game to check on. Admittedly, I bowed out of two other GP games due to time constraints, but a factor was that I wanted to focus on being a part of one really good PbP game, rather than spreading myself thinner with every additional PbP game. I know some people play literally dozens of PbP games, but it's just not my thing (personal preference, to each their own, etc).

DMJ

May 12, 2017 12:20 am
Ezeriah says:
Constablebrew says:
Ezeriah says:
J, I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the crap out of this combat scene. ... Awesome dopeness.
I agree 100%. ...
Ahhhhh. Thanks for letting me know that you care. FAGS!!

Nah ... I'm really glad that you guys are bringing the heat against this setting with some pipe-hitting shot-caller characters that aren't half-stepping around throwing Perception checks every post and acting like pussies. There were a lot of people that I talked to by PM before and after we started, but I'm convinced that we got the exact right team together for this crazy shindig.

This scene is totally out-of-control versus how I was predicting it. You just never freaking know what will happen once everyone reacts to what they see and hear. Plus the dice continue to throw their weight around to steer alongside Player strategy. Classic unpredictability in a story that we just don't know where it will go. Good ish!

Plus I'm laughing it up and thinking it over at the same time during the unbridled nerdery on rules. I can't spend my all-too-rare minutes weighing in on the professional wrestling debate, but you guys are making great points. I'll have to chime in some day in the future with more time.

I'm Audi for the night probably - catch up manana.
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