Admin, OOC, and Launch Discussion

Fellas,

Thanks for joining the party! I really appreciate you all being willing to give this crazy idea a shot. I hope Dark Thrones: Remnants of the Ancients will be a good game. From what I have gathered talking to all of you by PM, I feel very fortunate to have such a great set of guys to hang out with on the GP boards. Hopefully we can get a cool story rolling.

So I want to talk more later--unfortunately a little short on time tonight. In the meantime though, I wanted to put up this one thread so that we can all have a chance to talk as necessary for Admin and preparatory items.

IMPORTANT: Don't talk about character builds just yet.
I do want you to submit characters electronically when you have the character sheet done, but I would ask that everyone maintain commitment to the "Blind Character Creation" idea for now, until everyone is finished and has characters submitted. I know I'm keeping up the ruse for a long time - on the brink of being annoying. Bear with me just a little longer. I think it will pay off in the long run, with everyone getting a cool character put together "in a vacuum" and then a bit more of surprise of a big reveal to pull it together for "Episode 0" as we talk through the tie-in between character backgrounds and then get ready for "Episode 1" when we kick off active story line game play.

So maintain character related questions on PM, but use this resource to hang out, intro yourself as a player (not character) if you want, and also if something else applies in the way of questions about the game, scheduling, general questions or concerns about the setting, etc.


On that note: 1 last big adjustment that I think I have communicated to everyone individually, but wanted to reiterate for clarity:
Starting Character Level is changed from Level 3 to Level 4.
So if you have not done so already, proceed with adjustments to character development accordingly. I hope there are no objections with this. After I heard some of the character ideas, I realized that I wanted to shift slightly to give everyone a little more leeway to use 1 level beyond the 3rd level Archetype marker to allow for variety or design options.


So again, can't thank you enough. I really appreciate all of the time and effort communicating in advance and working with me to get organized and plan backgrounds. These characters that you guys have are all very cool. I am really excited to get this game rolling and together establish a legit Dark Thrones style!

Best regards,
J

Also, y'all, required viewing of this clip to help kick things off:

New Game Sesh

If you have already seen it, you have to watch it again. It is a new classic -- can we all agree on that?

Nice opener, and a great way to start a game. K&P is good stuff.

Right. Introductions.

First off, I'm really looking forward to this game. For those of you new to GP and PbP, the kind of setup DMJ has created here isn't remotely the norm. All the details that bring Dark Thrones to life are the same ones that give the setting and our time in it meaning. It's awesome to be able to look through all the background sources available and really get a sense for what the setting is like, creating the sense that your character has a history and a life before you started playing it.

As far as interests, not necessarily just the fantasy(ish) genre...

Some of my influences/favorites for literature, off the top of my head: Conan, the Elric saga, Lovecraft's works (although some really do seem to border on unreadable madness, tales like 'Shadow Over Innsmouth' and 'The Lurking Fear' are classics that redefined the genre), Thieves' World (top notch realistic fantasy, with multiple characters living in a city, with short stories from different points of view; George RR Martin definitely borrowed from this writing style), Lord of the Rings (yeah it's got elves and dwarves, but it's a great adventure, and one of the best reads of my pre-teen childhood, written by a guy that survived some of the worst shit from World War I), and Game of Thrones (has a nice 'real' feel and it got me interested in fantasy again). I like a good mystery and thrillers/horror as well, and also enjoy Doyle's Sherlock Holmes in addition to Poe's works (Fall of the House of Usher, Masque of the Red Death, Telltale Heart, and the Pit and the Pendulum being some of my favorites).

On the screen, some of my favorites are (randomly stream of consciousness here) Star Wars, Gladiator, Braveheart, Alexander, Blade Runner, Alien, Aliens, The Abyss, 13th Warrior, Conan the Barbarian (and the Destroyer), Bram Stoker's Dracula, Dune, Star Trek, 300, and I'm sure quite a few I just can't think of right now.

As far as my background and taste in gaming, some of my favorite games include D&D (my first table top experience when I was 6), Shadowrun, FFG Star Wars, Call of Cthulu, Vampire, and Warhammer 40k (I have yet to play Dark Heresy though, although I imagine it's pretty awesome).

Whatever the game is, over the years I've come to realize that the common denominator is that I enjoy darker, edgier, and more realistic games, where the DM/GM is okay with killing off your character (or worse) when you screw up and make bad choices. Without that edge, that possibility to utterly fail, the game loses meaning and starts to feel like a boring ride on some guided train track tour through the fantastical land of Mundane Fluffy Rainbow Cloud World.

In sum, when you can't lose, none of your choices even matter anymore, and when that happens in a RPG, it sucks.

I doubt we'll have that problem in Dark Thrones, where I have a feeling that fools will find themselves in a pool of their own blood, sooner or later.

DMJ has done an amazing job detailing his world! I'm very much looking forward to playing this game. I have always been attracted to gritty games, and this will be my first time playing in one.

Books: Stormlight Archives series by Brandon Sanderson is absolutely amazing, as is his Mistborn series. I've been working my way through Fritz Leiber's novels with the Gray Mouser and Fafard. On Silver Wings by Evan Currie is the best SciFi I have ever read. Everything by Scott Sigler is great.

Movies: Just copy and paste Ezeriah's list here.

I'm a big gamer - lots of board games, indie video games, and even made a few myself for fun. Some of my favories are Catan, Pandemic, Risk Legacy, BattleTech, FTL, Darkest Dungeon, Hammer Fight, Quake, .... it just goes on and on and on.

I really can't wait to see what characters you all came up with. This will be so good!

Thanks for having me here! :-)

I'm Jabes, 42 years old, from Manila, Philippines (GMT+8). Besides the time zone difference I also keep odd work hours as I am a chef running my own cake business. We like making geeky cakes. Here's a D&D-themed one, and here's another.

And then there's this bad boy!

I was introduced to D&D almost 30 years ago (AD&D back then) and to this day I still play with the same group of guys, my best friends. We played 3.5E when that came out and spent 10 years on a campaign, skipped 4E, and started a 5E campaign as soon as it came out. I've been on GP since early 2015. It's been fun trying out new game systems and character concepts I would never have gotten off the ground in my IRL games.

Whenever I play I try to do something new. Sometimes that means something a little unconventional, but other times that just means something I myself have never tried before.

Echoing everyone's sentiments, I am amazed at the rich detail with which DMJ has filled this world. Simply reading through the world setting threads has been a treat in and of itself.

I'm really looking forward to getting together and telling this story with all of you!

Hey guys,

I really appreciate the opportunity to play with you guys. I saw the description for Dark Thrones and was instantly attracted and interested and here I am, so thank you for the invite.

A little bit about me, I'm a Journeyman metal fabricator and a Journeyman welder I'm 30 years old and I'm relatively new to the tabletop RPG scene. I have only been playing D&D for three years. Seeing you guys talk about playing D&D for 30 years+ makes me jealous! I was late to the party but have immersed myself in the game quite a bit. I DM for two home campaigns (one of which I convinced my wife to play in - success!) and I'm relatively new to GP, but I absolutely love it here.

Im excited to play and to get to know you guys.

Y'all, thanks for the intros. Reminded me that I did not do mine yet.

I think I qualify as an "Old School" gamer, in a way at least. I started with 1e. AD&D. I think around 1987. That was the crazy years: the wild west of mean, vengeful DMs and out-of-control house rules, especially endless expansion of critical hit and fumble description tables. "Ok, so that 1 is a fumble. Roll on the table and see what happens....Oh my god! You chop your own foot off! Idiot!" Classic.

I kept gaming with a small/medium sized group of friends for about 10 years I think, with up and down frequency. I was almost always the DM (hence the DMJ handle I have secretly carried for decades in a small circle who know that identity), because no one else wanted to do it after we all learned how from the couple of weirdo DMs that introduced us to the game originally. Mostly, I played 2nd Edition D&D, with the exception of one campaign I ran in Cyberpunk. (Did that game even exist?! Or am I just remembering some old dream...)

But then I was pretty much away from D&D until 2012, I think around a 15 year absence. I revived the habit: 1) to play with my kids, and 2) to revive an old campaign with old friends on Skype and during vacations when we had a chance to get together. It was a complete blast for me coming back! My household campaigns with the kids and their friends have been some of the best stories I've ever been a part of and a lot of good times, laughs, and some moving scenes. We started originally with 2nd Edition D&D (all I knew), then converted to 3.5 Pathfinder (I learned the whole system by the book by myself, no one helping me), then converted to 5e about a year and a half ago. All a lot of fun.

So the cool conversion that I really enjoy now, just for some background, is that the Dark Thrones campaign setting is really based on a retro game setting that is a big part of my past. I know the very first character ever created in this setting world. He was an Assassin named Ian Kane, from an inland Kortellan city called Chantuela, created by my best friend from my hometown where I grew up. That was in 1990! So it turns out that I have a lot of info on this world, it just has never been so formalized and written out for readers, more like a set of notes in several mediums from MS Word files, to 3.5 floppy disks, all the way back to spiral notebooks I wrote in the 9th grade. haha

But y'all I have never played any games online. I just heard about PbP last year and just started trying it out on GP this January. So I want to confess early that I am green as they come on PbP. I hope you will have mercy on me as I botch things up here and there. I am 100% sure I will be screwing up something very soon in this new format of gaming. I like to think I am a fast learner though, and I will try to recover quickly. I appreciate your tolerance as I learn the ropes, adapt to some of the normal practices of the online game culture, and as we develop some of our own practices that might be a little different and unorthodox.

That is it on gaming. Movies I list out on inspirations forum thread. I have read some fantasy fiction books: mostly Howard's Conan (could you guess?), Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith. Also a few of the Drizzt books and a couple Dragon Lance books in the more distant past. Outside RL interests are sports: involved to various degrees with high school football, wrestling, and lacrosse in local area. Enjoy hunting, shooting, water skiing, grilling out, drinking. I'm a former atheist converted to a Catholic. I read my fair share of non-fiction books on science, foreign policy, history, religious history, and theology, although I forget the details of most of them after about 6 months. Grew up in the South, used to be in the army, now work in DC as a consultant. I work out and run all the time but remain out-of-shape because of too much cheeseburgers, pizzas, beer, insomnia, and self-destructive lifestyle. No intention of changing that. I'm a big-time family guy. Undisclosed number and ages of kids, but it is a lot. Super hot blonde wife.

So that's it. Way too much probably, but it's a one-shot intro, so what the heck.

J

p.s. Dang, Jabes! I can't believe those cakes, bro. Your beholder avatar icon is actually a CAKE?! Holy smokes! That blows me away.

I wanted to add that I'm 37 and started with AD&D 2e in middle school when my dad randomly shipped me a ton of the books. He had been an inmate at the time and picked up the game as a way to pass time. He figured my brother and I would like it. Turns out he was right. A played a lot of Rifts in high school, '93-'97 and then didn't play anything until 2011. My coworker and I got to talking and he was interested in learning the game after I mentioned I had played before. We got a group together and took turns GMing short campaigns for the next 3 years. Then I had kids and gaming became a difficult thing to commit to. I just recently got back into it now, playing once a week (late at night online, after the kids are asleep) and started here on GP just about a month ago now.

I spend the rest of my non-free time working as a lead software engineer for a startup. I spend the occasional weekend making small games, which you can play a few of them here: http://ihazcode.herokuapp.com/

@Jabes - I realize now I've seen your cakes on Reddit! You are famous!

I enjoy reading the intro information. It's clear we have an all-pro gamer team here.

Here are a couple of thoughts to keep the Admin stuff rolling for kick-off.

On finalizing characters...
Submit characters whenever you are ready. Remember the adjustment to Level 4.

On backgrounds and story launch...
We are really close. I will aim to send 1 more PM to everyone tomorrow (Friday) to work with you in the last details of background, with angles to pull characters together in their recent individual stories to bring the group story to what I think is a believable and compelling starting point.

On starting equipment and coin...
These characters are 4th level, and each has a highly developed backstory. So no need to stick to the book exactly on starting weapons, armor, equipment, gear. I want everyone to have some leeway. Think of what the character would really have, realistically in this point of their career and story. Within reason of course--no magic items, and no plate mail armor, crossbows, etc.--just keep in mind the setting limitations that have been discussed elsewhere. On money, none of these characters seem necessarily dead broke to me, but all of them are obviously striving for more to some degree or another. Some do seem like they are a little more thin in the wallet than others by design, and that is fine. So again --pick something that fits the story that you are telling, and what kind of situation that you want them to be in financially given their circumstance, and what kind of motivations they would have because of finances or lack thereof. If you have any questions about this, about what is fair or permissible, feel free to throw them my way and we can talk it through.

On schedule predictions...
If you guys are willing to finish characters over the weekend, I think we could aim to start a real game thread next week. We might need a day or 2 of "Episode 0: Pre-game" talk that I think would be a mix of In-Character and OOC, to get the action framed up, describe the starting circumstance, location, etc. and allow for Q&A as necessary. But then I think we could be ready for full-fledged, roll camera opening scene maybe middle next week. Send word if there is any problem with this plan or if anyone feels like they need more time, or more info from me to keep things moving.

Thanks again. I'm really looking forward to going live and seeing these characters in action.

We probably can get started with Episode 0 now and make final tweaks during that process. I'll be making small adjustments to my equipment, nothing major. Not to mention that making changes to character backgrounds to tie in other PCs is pretty normal for Episode 0's.

I think as part of seeing Blind Character Generation through, we should finish our characters completely and turn them in to DMJ before we go to Episode 0 (complete everything but tying in backgrounds, of course). That's the impression I got about the Blind Char Gen, and the idea is that we don't influence the mechanical aspects of each other's characters, or personal historical backgrounds, in any way. Once those are all rock solid, I think we bring it all together with "how do these guys know each other, and how long?"

And yeah, I'm looking forward to kicking this off too, but no need to hurry it. I'm all for taking the weekend.

Calling attention to this post. Where it says "apply part or all of his proficiency towards lowering his AC" I think you mean raising his AC. :-)

Yes. Typo. Good catch.
You know I will never really escape my 2nd Edition upbringing.
Hey, Jabes, what's your THAC0?

Haha! Funny story: I made a dragonborn sorcerer named Thacogygax. :-D

THACO... so many good memories can be attached to one simple acronym.

Hi all,

Wow, this is looking solid!

I'm 37 and currently live in Toronto. I grew up in South America, and the opportunity to play tabletop RPGs never really presented itself until two years ago when a neighbor "selected" my wife and I to be his PCs. Since then we've been playing different campaigns with a few other neighbors and my son. We try for once a week, but I work the night shift and my days off are always different, so it's hard to play as often as I would like. Thanks to Google, here I am playing PbP for the first time, nervous and excited.

DMJ's world looks amazing; I'm looking forward to exploring it with you all.

Toronto? Where about? I was born in Ajax.

Mississauga. Just moved here about three years ago.

I have had network issues at the office all morning, so only access is by phone. Too busy to post during the day now, but will aim to start new thread for story this evening.

Unexpected delay but will recover.

No worries, this sort of thing happens all the time once you get half a dozen disparate people together.

Wow. Those weapons seem right on the mark to me. Perfect styles for the setting.

Fellas, Ezeriah is on to something in that I would like to maintain a lot of flexibility on the look and imagery of weapons, armor, tools, and gear. We want to keep it simple on the stats, using the PHB where we can and not developing endless new stats, but at the same time taking realistic liberties with cosmetics to fit the scene and fit everyone's own preference look.

As we have spoken of elsewhere, this is mostly a setting at the tail end of the Bronze Age, with some regions transitioning to iron and developing more complex steel work methods. I really enjoy envisioning the characters on that brutal edge of transition in civilization and technology, where there is a lot of variety and even disparity among the tools of war used by different cultures and regions.

Yeah that gear is badass! And I've always particularly enjoyed ancient cultures that weren't your standard pseudo-European Tolkien fare, and have often tried to flavor my PC's that way. So this game is fun for me on that level on top of everything else!

Something I've done in every other game I've joined here: In addition to introducing the PC in-character in the story thread I also introduce my character in the OOC thread once he or she has been approved. Wasn't sure if I should do that here, given the Blind Character Creation. But since Ivor has been introduced in-game I'm guessing the cat's out of the bag.

So here's Ivor MacConall, a Dannein raider who was captured and enslaved, and ended up in the Pylosean gladiator pits. But he got free, details of which will I will try to reveal little by little as the story progresses and our characters get to know each other.



For those who like to skip to the last page of a book, I can post Ivor's story here if DMJ approves. :-)

Jabes, and everyone else:
I'm cool with posting whatever you want. Showcasing is fully permitted at any time. This Admin thread is separated for a reason. Sure the characters may not know everything that we do; we are all committed to playing the characters only with the information they have. But as a gamer, I would love for everyone as fellow gamers to hear about these character because all of them are rated Top Shelf.

Not a requirement for those who want more secrecy, but an invite to those who are willing. Great story lines and imagery going on with all of these PCs.

Jabes, I used to do some miniature painting myself, mostly for Warhammer 40k. Just wanted to say, that miniature is a top notch paint job, and, based on your cake business, I'll assume that's your handiwork as well?

Hey DMJ, how about a Characters subforum, where we can create our own threads (for each of our characters), and post info about our characters? That way we have nice spot to go and check stuff out, to get a better aesthetic and/or visual idea of the character. You know, so when CB has Qiu Hua maul someone, I can look there for a quick visual reference (like the glorious one above).

The OOC is nice, but won't stay organized for the purpose of character stuff, and it'll be cool to have a thread we can post anything we think pertinent to getting a better sense of our characters.

Also, as far as characters knowing each other, I believe Kray, Talius, and Thorn have known each other for two years, since the Battle at Giant's Ford.

Good call. Will get a Characters Sub-Forum established.

EDIT: Done. It is on the boards at least, as "Player Characters". I hope I have the settings correct where you guys can add threads, but let me know. I'm still kind of dorking out managing these Administrative Control Panel settings for all this ish.

No, man, I pulled that image off the net! :-)

Well, nice pull then. That miniature is inked and drybrushed too, looking about as real as it can. Whoever did that is dedicated.

I'm a bit confused what is being asked here.

Ah yes, was also about to ask the same thing but you beat me to it. :-)

LOL. Exactly. It is confusing. I thought it would be perfectly understandable if Ivor wrote back "What are you saying, old sea dog? Are you talking to me or to yourself again?"

Big Zaituc, a monster of a man even though he is old, speaks with a fearsome and booming voice when he is on the ship or in a fight, never lacking clarity. He is feared for his ruthlessness in battle, and his great physical strength, and also hailed as one of the most shrewd corsairs and elusive smugglers for decades.

But when he is hanging out drinking and getting high and getting laid at his camp with his friends, he drifts away and can be seen talking to himself. He still insults everyone and complains, but he is very generous and egalitarian, (even though you have learned recently that he actually carries the title of Viscount in Voldruv, which would make him mid/upper level nobility. He has never mentioned this, but some of the non-Voldruvan crewmen have told you).

Not sure if the behavior is bipolar, an act, or him just adjusting to circumstances albeit dramatically. Also, it seems like a Voldruvan tendency. Many of his crew are Voldruvan. The trend is that they are gruff, abrasive, and focused when they are "on the clock" managing the ship, and ferocious in battle (especially with axes), but when they get down time, they are rather quiet, dull, calm, and very kind.

The comments about the Gandish will revive later. Not giving anything away when I say that.

Haha I dig it. Ivor needs to chill. I was under the impression we'd go out to meet the visitors, that's why Ivor has gotten to his feet. Have I got it wrong? Are they coming to the longhouse?

Ya. Visitors are en route, nearby apparently. All of you are just cold chillin on the front stoop like swamp people neighborhood gangsters.
Sorry. Accurate description was probably lacking from me, learning ropes on this all writing no conversation gig.

No worries, man. It's been awesome so far. :-)

In other news, Ive got another hectic weekend coming up at the cake works. Posting from me will be sporadic at best.

As you may or may not be aware, the site has an Absences thread for people to post leaves of absence. Why there and not the game's OOC thread as I've done here? Because some people (like me) are in over two dozen games! ;-)

Popped in real quick to add the following sentences to my last post:
As per my notice of absence by the time I'm ready to post again the others will have arrived at the longhouse.

Right on, Jabes. I should be able to game some tomorrow morning, but then I too will be hit or miss on access after that. Might be able to steal some moments Sat/Sun, but I will need to be away from the computer for the most part. No peer pressure on weekends for any of us - we are not going to press the story forward Fri-Sat. As a general trend, I will be aiming to keep this game to a Mon-Thurs show because I suspect that we are all pretty well dispersed on weekends and rightly so.

One more thing: Daaaang, bro. I hope that my message boards don't catch some virus or disease from your posts, since you are carousing all around town with such rampant promiscuity. I guess you want to see other people, but whoa...
haha

Test Fire Roll Visibility Check

In order below, on "Visibility" pop window:

Hide Nothing
Hide Roll/Result
Hide Dice & Roll
Hide Everything

EDIT AFTER ROLLS: Hmm. That is kind of lousy. I was really looking for an option that would just present the final result but not the details of the roll and bonus.

Full Disclosure

A "Result Only" option would be great. I'll suggest that to the admin.

Love that description!

@Jabes I was thinking we could do a sort of flashback in the Player Characters thread and explore how Qiu and Ivor met and how Qiu ended up helping Ivor escape.

Yeah! I'd like that!

For inspiration of a slave pit fight, I ran a scenario of Qia against a Hobgoblin Warlord in a large arena. The hobgoblin came straight from the MM, CR6, but effectively something lower since he couldn't make use of his Martial Advantage nor Leadership. 4 rounds of javelins and then Qia grappled and disarmed the warlord in 3 more rounds. And then bashed through 97 hobgoblin hit points for another 12 rounds.

What a slog.

That sound awesome. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that "plays by myself" doing hypothetical fights.

Noticed there's some new stuff in the World Details. Nice touch that "small fragments of the broken moon can still be seen on some nights." Interesting how the subsumed Nadrilian culture were astronomers, too, and that Ancient Yuoric, if spoken today, would likely be very difficult for a current day Yuoric speaker to understand (just like ancient vs modern English).

All nice touches and great adds to the setting.

Ezeriah, nice work on the annotated timeline.

Yeah. Thanks, Ez. That shit is dope.

Jabes, just want to say that trident and net is fucking badass and I'm glad you're rocking it.

And yes amazing work Ezeriah.

Thanks guys. I just wanted to be able to look back and see where the group's been, and where we might be going.

To capitalize on the Sentinel feat I'll have to know, round by round, which foes, if any, are within 5ft of Ivor. @DMJ, if you'd rather not bother with that shit and would prefer that I swap the feat out for another (maybe that Trident Mastery feat we were discussing) then I'd be ok with that. Sentinel is boss though. :-D

Ivor, you could just make the tactical choice of pairing yourself with someone, positioning yourself close to an ally to ensure you pick up a Sentinel attack off of your Reaction.

Jabes, I'm all clear with providing detail on positioning as much as I can. Reference PM I sent you; I don't mind questions for clarity and reminders along the way. Just worked like a charm in first run in the field on Ep. 1.

For those listening in: I discussed with Jabes about DM decision for Trident being interchanged with Spear on some Feats and rules. There is no actual Trident Mastery Feat, but advantages may be gained by route of other Feats that benefit Spear.

You know, maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I've got to wonder if something we wouldn't like is happening back at the Longhouse. Almost like this whole affair at The Stones might just be a distraction for a stealthy raiding party to take what they want from the Zaituc's camp.

Right. Gambling payouts:

Off the top of my head it was 18 total gold in the pot (13 from Kray, 5 from Ivor)

Since only two played, instead of fictionalizing some additional GP into the pool, I'll just boost Ivor's winnings from 60% to 70%.

70% to Ivor = 12 Crowns (gp) and 6 Sharps (sp), netting a total gain of 7 Crowns, 6 Sharps.

30% to Kray = 5 Crowns and 4 Sharps, netting a total loss of (you guessed it!) 7 Crowns, 6 Sharps.

Well played Ivor!

"Rutcrana". Words like this makes me wish Gamers Plane had a "search all threads and PM's" button. It doesn't, does it?

Hey Ez, Talius played too, remember?

I'm feeling like Ivor would pursue the fleeing Gand rather than leave it to the mob. I'm assuming he has some understanding of the rules of the Circle of War. Would his leaving the Circle to pursue be bad form, or even prohibited?

Ivor can pursue. No rules or traditions would be broken.

I doubt GP has such a search function.
I can tell you that the name Rutcrana has never been mentioned before on Forums or PM.

Thanks. Maybe I just start copying and pasting everything onto a Google doc for easier lookup... :)

So it looks like Qiu's opponent is breaking free from the grapple. But having been struck by Ivor's Sentinal OA, his speed is zero. No getting up, no moving. Let's say the trident has him pinned to the ground. He can still attack, of course!

Ah, OK. So Ivor is sort of staying there for a moment then, threw the hand axe at the stone jumper but is still remaining engaged to keep this other guy Qiu is wrestling down. Got it.

I can't break free from work for long now, but will readdress tonight. No matter what, looks like it could be last action for the Gandish wrestler - running on fumes now.

Yup, exactly. He was thinking about pursuing but the crowd finished the Gand for him. Ivor is gonna be damn pissed at himself for being the only one who didn't manage to kill his opponent!

O well, he targeted the slipperiest one who had it in mind to make a break for it from the beginning.

Man, I really hoped for a chance to have Qiu chace down the fleeing Gand and drag it back into the circle. Before that I figured Qiu could climb up that pillar, grab the foot of the thing, and power slam it with a 15 ft drop.

That would have been awesome. Like a Randy Orton suplex off of the top turn buckle.

Fellas,

I am heading into a busy day at work and weekend of working at home mixed with family time. I'll be sticking with the casual weekend tradition. Probably sneaking some time here and there to drop in non-pressing updates, hopefully follow up on some individual questions that have come up so far, etc. but there won't be anything going on where we are waiting for each other's input, and I might not be able to speak back and forth much on any new questions until next week. As usual, posting is still welcome and even encouraged, but definitely not required.

I don't know what you guys thought, but I thoroughly enjoyed this week's Druid Circle Death Match. Your characters' input every day was outstanding, and to me it painted a vivid picture of what was going on both in the action and on the sidelines before, during, and after the fight scene. And I am really starting to get a feel for the imagery, style, and personality of each character, which is very cool to see (read?). Well done and thanks for all the effort to build this scene up with such meticulous detail every single day.

Next week, starting early Monday morning hopefully, we'll press the story on to learn why Capt/Viscount Nemes Zaituc really went to the effort to assembly your teams here at the strange edge-of-the-swamp hideout. As you can predict, we will gain more ground on a bigger snapshot of the area and background on at least some circumstances as they are now. A few unknowns will be identified, Zaituc will put forward his real proposition, and the party will have to decide how to respond.

So that is where we will shift story drive to low gear for the weekend break:
All 5 PCs hanging out at some old toppled stones that lay outside of the menhir tower circle, talking with Zaituc and his leadership and ally crew. NPCs present (some illustrated here) include:
Zaituc
Ruacht
Rori
Horasiu
Shen Lain
Daig (from Lochlainn Clan)
Scachan (druid)

Alright then. So have a good weekend, and Happy Easter to anyone who is in to either Christianity, rabbit fairy tales, or Hallmark promos.

Catch up with you on the regular next week,

J

Added new expansion of Tavern Brawler and Grappler Feats here.

I say new, but it is really something that CB and I had already discussed back during the team assembly days by PM. I had meant to put it up on the boards formally, but failed to do so. So in the end, this rule is just late.

These expansions give a new avenue for Action and Damage in weaponless combat when they are coupled with the House Rule on the Slam Action. If this new ability would have changed anyone's decisions about initial Feat selection, then I'm fine with allowing a swap now on an existing Feat to Tavern Brawler or Grappler for anyone who is only learning about this rule now but would like to take advantage of it. I do not want to have unfairly (though inadvertently) withheld options by not having rule adjustments published.

New expansion on the Mercenary Code of Honor here.

Because of several PC backgrounds and the nature of this first set of circumstances developing, I can feel that we may be heading on a mercenary type story, for a short time at least. It's definitely not a train track. I know things can change over time, but wanted to have this option out there on the table for anyone who wants to capitalize on it in the circumstances as they are for Episode 1. Something for a little more flair, style, and enjoyment maybe, though it is definitely not a requirement.

Oh man, I totally forgot about that bonus action slam. Qiu would have saved his action surge then, which would have gone toward running and jumping up that stone column, grabbing onto the gand up there and slamming him off of it. #hero.

Also, IIRC there was a clause that "both you and your opponent are standing" for the bonus slam action.

Correct. That is in the criteria for House Rule: Slam here.

Slammed at work. Will be back to posting two days from now.

Monday: I'm late on putting in a big write up entry on Episode 1. Meant to have it up early morning, but I will get it on the boards sometime this evening (EST) in hopes of keeping things rolling for the week.

Thanks,
J

Talius is bad at all of those skills being requested, so hopefully there is someone else in the party that can cover that.

Talius' insight is +3, that's about all he can offer.

Qiu is ok at all of those, and excels at history.

Investigation +2
Insight +2
History +6
Intelligence +2
Persuasion +1

He will take keen interest in anything related to History and will be Helping with investigation and insight as he wants to get to the bottom of the situation and understand what is driving both Zaituc and the druid. He will listen to what others ask and ask followup questions to flesh out the answers.

Since all of us are having a talk through about the details on the contract, would it be safe to assume that we can all roll with Advantage for whatever check we decide to do (assuming we'll get Help from someone on the check-- there's no mechanical requirement to my knowledge)? Maybe it could reflect just the natural flow of group conversation (e.g., Kray's Persuasion attempt on the behalf of the group carrying more weight, springboarding off of another character's comment, rather than being simply for some personal gain).

CB, I'm fine if you go ahead and roll that History check. Even if it's not the high for the group, I think it's pretty damn serviceable for 4th level.

On rolls to boost info at contract meeting...

Good idea on the Aid Another effort from the whole crowd. I'm supportive of that, so all elected rollers proceed with Advantage rolls, and good that the trend is already established. Picturing it as more of a give and take with the whole crowd involved. Early example of team work too I think.

Write up coming. Please forgive the recent delays. Unexpected developments at work have thrown me for a loop before, during, and after workdays so far this week.

Hell, I appreciate the delay this morning! Without it, I feel like I would have missed the bus on being involved in the ability checks.

I have been slammed at work too, so a slower pace this week is fine by me.

Just now coming up for air after a brutal couple of days at work. Haven't slept for 36 hours! Will try to catch up...

Talius can make the insight rolls.

Nice.

Wrote up a few results on History and Investigation on Ep 1. Have to call it quits for the night though. Will try to get the other stuff up on the board sometime by mid-morning.

Party is having pretty good success so far. A good run on the dice it looks like to me. Gives a little boost on info.

Yo, Xorthan. Wondering if that last remaining INT check might have Thorn's name all over it...just wondering. :)

As far as inventory and the swamp, this is what I've got (besides weapons) and not necessarily what I'm bringing. What I'm curious about here is how closely you're looking at our inventory J. For example, Kray doesn't wear armor anyway, so is bringing the below gear an issue in any way? In other words, how realistic are we getting? Or is your focus more on heavy gear and heavier armor, rather than specifics (like swamp-wet rations being no good to eat anymore, maps being ruined if I they get submerged, etc).


---Medium Shield (+2 AC)

MISCELLANEOUS
--Backpack
--Sack for loot

--Crowbar
--Hammer

--50 ft hemp rope
--Pitons x10

--Torches x10
--Tinderbox

--Bedroll
--Blanket
--Waterskin
--Rations x10

CARTOGRAPHY TOOLS (primary use)
--Leather folder for maps
--Pen
--Bottle of Ink
--parchment sheets x10
--Sealing Wax
--Candle x4
--Chalk x4

Just as a continuation of what Ez is asking, mechanically speaking, how will you handle swimming in Armor? I've had some DMs say you just can't swim in armor and you are hindered in doing certain things.

I'm just going to leave this here.

Jokes aside, I'm fine with leaving Armor behind. In two levels I won't need it anymore.

Talius' gear.

Medium Oval Shield +2 AC
Mail Curiass

Pack items

Backpack
Bedroll
Mess kit
Tinderbox
10 torches,
10 days of rations
Waterskin.
50 feel of hempen rope strapped to the side
Caltrops
Whetstone
Healers Kit 10/10: Bandages, Salves and Splints
Dried meat
Travelers clothes (currently being worn.)
Herbalism Kit: Clippers, Mortar and Pestle, Vials

Home Items

Smiths Tools
Miners Pick
Shovel
50 lbs of Iron Ore
Healers Kit 10/10
Herbs
Antitoxin

As posted in the Absences thread:

General thoughts on the current conversation above...

On weight, carry, and equipment

Up front: I am not going to spend much of any time at all on monitoring your supplies. What I would like to ask though is that each player take control of their own character's realism on this topic and incorporate it into the story telling appropriately in a way that makes sense. Most of us were willing to take on this project with the hopes that we could maybe build a little bit more of a realistic feel to the scenes we develop. I think this topic on weight/carry/equipment is a great opportunity to get to it on that note.

We've all seen the player (I've definitely BEEN the player) at the table who, after supposedly swimming across a ravine, tight-walking a rope bridge, climbing a 100 foot cliff (8 story building), outrunning a flock of panthers, wrestling 2 ogres, and slashing two-weapon style through 50 orcs on crack , comes up to a portcullis.

So he takes his fully loaded BACKPACK off of his PLATEMAIL ARMORED shoulders, shifts his DOUBLE LONGSWORDS off of his back holsters, and lays down his BATTLE AXE spare weapon and 2 HAND AXES, pulls his LONG BOW off from over his chest, drops his QUIVER OF 30 ARROWS, so that he can look through his supplies, move the TENT and SLEEPING ROLL to the side, so that he can get to his 10 FOOT POLL and 15 IRON SPIKES and SMALL HAMMER kit, 50' ROPE staged up to the side with GRAPPLING HOOK. He is thinking also about using the CROWBAR that he carries, but right now he is going to kick back, use one of the 10 TORCHES, start a fire with his PERFECTLY DRY TINDERBOX. While chewing on 1 of 10 IRON RATION PACKS, he can't remember how much money he has after he bribed the guard back at the last station. So he gets out his MEDIUM BELT POUCH and counts his money to be sure. Yep. It's all there: 100PP, 300GP, 500SP. Where are those gems again? Oh yeah, all 20 of them are still in SMALL BELT POUCH, safe and sound. Time to saddle up and bypass this portcullis and swim across that inner moat on the other side!

Classic! We all know that some of the ridiculousness of D7D inventory lists has been off the charts sometimes. That's no problem though; it's fun as hell to whip out that 50' hemp and iron piton climb the fuck out of some punk-ass wall like an REI commercial. But to change things a little let's aim to just think it through on our scenes and stay at least moderately committed to feeling the ideas of carrying all that shit around and what it would feel like in difficult terrain or in periods of physical exertion.

Also, let's consider the ideas of swimming with setting-style armor and full tactical gear. The plain truth of it: it's a huge risk and also a smoker of an exertion even if you athletic your way out of a jam. If you go over the side of a canoe with full kit, you are probably going to need to ditch whatever you can to avoid sinking like a rock. I'm not sure if you can ditch fully strapped in metal armor or not. That seems like a life or death ability check or two versus some pretty threatening DCs.

Comparatively, I think back to all of the Conan stories ("Of course. It always goes back to Conan, doesn't it, J?" haha).
Conan's equipment list:
1) Sandals
2) Loin cloth
3) Sword
4) Belt and scabbard
(Item 4 optional)
All the rest of the stuff needed to get the episode done was improvisation and "battlefield procurement."

All that being said, I don't want to quash preparedness or set it up where the DM has a war vs. material. Not like that at all. Like I said, in full disclosure: I am not going to look at equipment at all before the mission. Depending on what circumstance develops in the scenes, I may ask about it during the events just to get a feel for any effects as necessary. And if there are any effects, I will aim to make them as realistic as possible.

Plus, these guys are premiere athletes and strong dudes. It is not lost on me that they can haul a load, and keep on trucking. Also, I think a lot of it is solved if we say they have backpacks they carry in, but when they know the real action is going to start, they might download rucksacks, camoflage them up in a cache somewhere, and then roll onto the action scene with just the actual battle load.

Overall, I'm just trying to talk it through in advance to invite everyone to be their own monitor on realism.

Weekend Downshift

Fellas,

Thanks for all the input this week. I know it was a different week on the boards with the severe info dump download. If that is not your thing, thanks for bearing with it. Hopefully it will be time well invested to set up for upcoming scenarios.

Thanks again to Ez for managing the Timeline/Journal, which I relocated to a more prominent and sensible location here. I really like that resource and appreciate the attention to detail.

So that's it for the regular schedule now. Shifting to lower gears on attention for now, but of course the boards are open all weekend if everyone wants to continue any discussions.

I'll be ready Monday to get back to regular pace. It's going to be a Live Range - - Safeties OFF!
Let's see what happens.

Good weekend,
J

All for the realism on the gear. Reminds me of that scene in Platoon where Sgt Elias (Willem Dafoe) is telling the FNG's (fucking new guys) "you don't need that, shitcan this" etc. Going to streamline my gear for the trip, assuming it can be left with Zaituc. Also, considering weight ... what about money? How large do you consider a bag of 100 coins J? I considered the other night that taking the front half of our cut into the swamp might be foolishness. Kray prefers plates (pp) and gems as currency for their light weight vs value ... hopefully Zaituc can pay in such a fashion.

Still waiting for J's input on money (no hurry J, it'll just be part of my decision), which has the potential to be useful during the job (the whole money talks thing). Besides coin, I'm fairly set on what I'm bringing.

I'd like to think that guys who operate with fat paychecks, or pay them out, would likely appreciate using more valuable currency and would be inclined to use plates/old royals/gems whenever possible, rather than carry around fat sacks of coin all the time. Kind of like the Dark Thrones version of carrying plastic or plenty of $100's and a few smaller bills.

Gear:

Given the nature of the swamp environment and the great potential to get wet, this seems a lot more realistic for Kray's loadout:

--No armor
--All weapons (Yatagan, Falcata, knife, dagger, bow, arrows)

--Backpack (containing all of the below that Kray is bringing)
--Sack for loot
--Crowbar
--50 ft hemp rope

--Torches x10 x5
--Tinderbox
--Candle x4
--Chalk x4

--Blanket
--Waterskin
--Rations x10 x5 (4 day trip = contract bonus)

---Medium Shield (+2 AC)

--Bedroll
--Hammer
--Pitons x10


--Leather folder for maps
--Pen
--Bottle of Ink
--parchment sheets x10
--Sealing Wax

Quick answer on coin weight

1 coin = a little more than 1 ounce

So let's say 15 coins is 1 lb.

Then, 100 coins is 6 - 7 lbs , roughly.

Let's say Zaituc has enough Plates/Old Royals to pay everyone that way if they want.

Or in Cown Markes.

Being paid in Gems? Maybe not. Not enough clarity on each value.

Thorn's going to go ahead and stow 8 torches and 5 days of rations at Zaituc's long house, and take his payment up front in Old Royals. He'll take his backpack along filled with a bit more stuff than Kray's taking along (gotta have that bedroll), and if he has to drop it in a lake in order to live, so be it. He's also going to keep his chain shirt on. I'm hoping he can swim in that shit.

Fellas,

Please check out the new Sub Forum here that I want to start using to post scores, stats, modifiers, etc. that I may need to manage directly to push the game along for expediency or in the rare cases that more secrecy is warranted.

If possible, please post in there on each thread (Group Initiative, Passive Perception, Passive Investigation).

As mentioned there, this will be the chance to give me the best and most current information so that there will be no confusion about rolls that I am making on everyone's behalf if they must be made.

Thanks,
J

I was looking into swimming with armor. Couldn't find much about European armor, but Samurai apparently practiced quite a lot.

Swimming in traditional samurai armor

A full suit of late Samurai armor was about 50 pounds (combination of leather and steel). In the video, it doesn't look like that guy is wearing the full leg and arm armor, so bear that in mind.

This group of guys here tho, I'm absolutely positive they would swim as well as a rock.

Qiu is stripping down his chainmail, keeping just the bare minimum protection (chain shirt), his shield, javelins, and backpack with supplies for the trip. The rest of his equipment (mostly construction/labor related) he will keep at the long house.


Carried

Chain shirt - 20 Lbs (stripped down chainmail) (AC 13)
Large oval shield - 6 Lbs (+8 Lb carried) (+3 AC, -1 Atk, bonus 3/4 cover)
4 x Javelin - 2 x 4 = 8 Lbs (clipped to inside of shield)
2 x Handaxe - 2 x 2 = 4 Lbs (in belt)
Small bundle of Aljanian marking sticks
Ring from childhood sweetheart
Backpack - 5 Lb (+22 Lb carried)
bedroll - 7 Lb
5 x rations - 2 x 5 = 10 Lbs
waterskin - 5 Lb
5 gp



Stowed at Long House

Chain mail (except for chain shirt portion) (AC 16)
Net
Belt pouch
10 gp + Initial payment
Bundle of gear
10 x candles
2 x clothes, common
clothes, costume
disguise kit
mess kit
3 x oil (flask)
5 x rations
scroll case
5 x parchment sheets
soap
thieves' tools
tinderbox
5 x torch

bucket (equipment used for laboring work)
block and tackle
crowbar
hammer
50' hempen rope
10 x iron spikes
lamp
shovel

Musical instrument (stringed, similar to a lyre)

Ladder (10 foot)
Pole (10 foot)

As far as how we show up and whether or not we disguise ourselves as explorer/traders...

Based on the information below the linebreak that Zaituc gave us, I think it's pretty clear that Rutcrana and the Bat Hannocs might need help. It seems like what Rutcrana initially thought was a mutually beneficial relationship with the 'neighbors at Nahrooma' went to hell.

A month ago, Rutcrana asked Zaituc for help. I say we just show up as the men he asked to do the job. Give her the truth and say Zaituc paid well to send the best men he could, concerned for the well-being of his granddaughter. So, we're there to help and make sure she (the granddaughter) is safe. What we don't tell Rutcrana is that we're bringing his granddaughter home. Also, the granddaughter seems important to Rutcrana as well; based on what Rutcrana said about the girl growing in skill, I'm guessing Rutcrana means the girl is learning about magic.

I think if we go in this way, it gives us a more immediate chance to sit down with Rutcrana, learn what we can, and get to business. Also, we don't have to concern ourselves with pissing off the natives should they discover (or even doubt) that we are not pathfinders.

---

4th of Raskine (continued)
Zaituc gives the party the details on the contract to find his granddaughter part 2
First month of Spring

Region Map: The Borderlands of Eastern Jeres


During the winter, about a month ago, yet another messenger came. This time it was a young Bat Hannoc girl. One who was weak, malnourished, and suffering from exposure on the trip through the wilderness to deliver the message. Her message from Rutcrana detailed in next entry.

A warning of danger in Borgh Riac (Dannein for Borgh Swamp)

The young girl Bat Hannoc messenger, speaking for Rutcrana, said that "the neighbors at Nahrooma" had turned from ally to oppressor. Bat Hannoc was nearly ruined. She asked Zaituc to bring his crew to her aid. She cannot provide more information, for fear of retribution from the collaborators in her own clan. She said that his grand daughter was not escaping this danger either, that she too was being drawn into peril.

Zaituc, still relentlessly suspicious of Rutcrana, thinks the whole thing could be a trap, another lure. At the same time he is troubled by the message of increasing danger in the area. Zaituc sent Rori to explore for a while. The Vodruvan tracker found that the woods and marsh of Borgh Riac was exceptionally quiet and untraveled. He did not see any Bat Hannocs whatsoever, though he was far into their territory. That alone is reason for concern because the Bat Hannocs are avid scouts and hunters. Plus the decades long blood feud versus the Murrogh Clan has pretty much come to a halt because no Bat Hannoc skirmishers are traveling north and west to the edges of Murrogh territory as they did often in the past.

Talius' reduced load out



Medium Oval Shield +2 AC
Chain shirt
Hammer

Pack items

Backpack
Bedroll
5 days of rations
Waterskin.
50 feel of hempen rope strapped to the side
Healers Kit 10/10: Bandages, Salves and Splints
Oiled cloak (currently being worn.)
Herbalism Kit: Clippers, Mortar and Pestle, Vials

I am with Ez on this. I would add that we would interpret "growing in skill" to mean she was learning herbalism and other pratical skills that can seem "witchy"

We should also think of bringing a "care package" of various supplies to help them. Qiu would wager 25% of his initial payment and ask the others to do the same. This package should be some food, weapons, and tools for rebuilding.

Right. My interpretation above is for us as players. I think the natural assumption for most would be to assume what you're saying CB, that Rutcrana is teaching her skills that can seem witchy.

Food yes. Not weapons and tools. They're swamp people, so I'm pretty sure they can get weapons if needed, and I imagine their style of living is fairly low-tech and doesn't require a great deal of tools. Either way, bringing an arsenal for the Bats to tap into could be a bad idea. The worse off they are, the better, especially when we finally make that move to leave with the granddaughter. If the Bats are weak and without weapons, good.

The lighter we can travel the better. I could see bringing a sack of food, to help make friends with the natives when we show up, but not rolling in with a whole care package.

With all these stats being shared Ez, I'm curious about your character build. You have one level barb, I'm assuming for unarmored defence was there anything else you are making use of?

A big part of it was that the backstory element appealed to me; Kray picked up his hint of barbarian and appreciation for different cultures living with a tribe in the Mozamyah jungle for two years in the Gaerimundi Isles. That experience early in life is a big part of the reason he's going against the grain in House Mercon and politicking for the recruitment of 'savage' Danneins into the Mercon workforce.

Mechanically, the Unarmored Defense had a lot of appeal as I knew there would be occasions where stealth and/or not wearing heavy gear would be at a premium; ultimately I just didn't want Kray to need or be encumbered by too much gear.

Besides that, the other benefit for L1 barbarian is Rage.

At level 5 I'm going to go Fighter, for extra attack then level 6 im for sure going barb. It's a really strong 1 level dip and is attrative for the same reasons you've pointed out and flavour wise, fits well with Talius.

I want to ditch my armor too... my first roll was a botched stealth roll thanks to Armor.

Also, while raging I will have +8 damage and advantage on my shove with shield master, then hopefully two landed hits with extra attack. Can't wait to crack some skulls with that potent combo.

Guessing 18 STR, Dueling (Fighting Style) for Talius. Then Rage... nice combo, solid plan to be sure. Even though the class selection is limited, I find the potential hybrid classes offered by Fighter, Barbarian and Rogue to make for some really intriguing combinations. There's a lot of possibilities there, depending.

I've got a few variable paths planned for the future, but I think I want to feel it out rather than say 'this is what Kray will be,' although having a short term plan like yours is good sense (and a nasty combo at that... +8 damage... ouch). Will Kray pick up some Rogue, fill out Barbarian style, or go further along straight Fighter? Only time will tell.

Right. Forgot about that.

Nice story by the way, with the Alijanian background on the demons, sorcs, and vampires. I'm looking forward to exploring different lands in time. I feel like this setting has an immense amount of potential for exploration and discovery, and I definitely want to explore the different cultures and regions.

Particularly I'm interested in the following locales and cultures (listed loosely in order of interest; after making the list I realized that there is so damn much I want to see in the Dark Thrones world, and I really love the comparisons to modern cultures that give us awesome reference points to get a feel for the setting):


Arkkadi: from exotic southern land of Arkkad. Varied environments but mostly jungles and vast mountain ranges. Location of ancient but highly advanced and apparently widespread cultures now lost, with only the ruins of their imposing architecture remaining. Modeled loosely after the ancient lands of Nubia, Kush, and Central Africa.

Voldruvan: from exotic gateway land of Voldruv, on a trade route between the east and west. Sometimes called the Land of Secrets, parts of it is shrouded in the mystery held by its long-running noble lines. Modelled loosely after Romania.

Otessite: from reclusive and ancient land of Otessa in the east. Almost universally disliked, and often feared by outsiders. A place of snake worship and black magic thought forgotten by the outside world. Modeled loosely after ancient Egypt.

Seetan: from mysterious far eastern land of Nuuth Seeta, modeled loosely after India.

Kauvic: from the land of Kauv, located in the uppermost northeastern reaches. The people are rugged and tough but exceptionally reclusive, rarely traveling outward and seldom tolerating visitors from foreign lands. Modeled loosely after Russia.

Sarceran: from an exotic eastern land called Sarcera. These people engage with the Yuouric Markkelands, Kortella, and Pylos at junction ports at the end of long trade routes. Modeled loosely after Persia.

Hi everyone! Sorry for the extended absence. That was my first vacation in years! I'm back now, and looking forward to slowly getting caught up with all my games. Cheers!

Yo, Jabes! Welcome back.

I've got to stick to a rough day at work today, probably off of the boards until late today at least, maybe tomorrow morning. I'm game for trying to get on some this weekend - I will definitely get a write up out on a few more details from the conversation that Kray and Talius seem to be baiting out of the blind old-timer.

On the other stuff, I will let you guys lead the way. Post as much as you want. If there are a lot of comms, I'll try to keep the scene going. If not, we can cruise until Monday. We'll just keep a half-pace type stance (at maximum) to allow for an open weekend IRL and no one has a concern of being left behind on too much important game progress.

Catch up later,
J

Also, thanks for all of the outstanding work on the Player Character at-a-glance stat boards. That is a great reference for me and I really appreciate the idea and all the effort to update it. F'n A+ Players Club!!!

Have you guys seen the skill feats Unearthed Arcana?

What do you guys think? Would you allow these J?

Those skill feats are pretty cool!

There's been some discussion about that article here.

I was finally able to post to the game a few minutes ago. I must admit it wasn't easy catching up, given the amount of exposition that has unfolded. As well, sometimes what gets in the way of posting is the desire to write a well-crafted post, which is of course not always possible.

I didn't have this planned for Ivor but the idea just came to me and I thought that it might make things interesting, as well as explain Ivor's recent silence: he is deeply superstitious, and this mission has him spooked. He certainly feels out of his depth, which is ironic given that he s Dannein and should be the most comfortable here. I'll reveal more details of his backstory as inspiration allows, but the general idea is that the community where he grew up was steeped in superstition and magic. I did already mention in my very first story post that "There's no one waiting for the son of Conall back there. Everyone he ever cared about is long gone. That's why he boarded the reaver longboat Fuath in the first place..." What happened there? Somethiing supernatural, maybe? We'll see. I'm pretty excited by this new direction for Ivor. Suggestions are very welcome! :-)

On UA Feat Skills, I just got a chance to read these this morning. These are really cool ideas - definitely a way to push a character towards a certain style or specialty. Also, great options to boost performance on targeted actions without the use of magic in most cases - so I am a fan of that. I think most of these will fit in our game no problem.

Must admit there are a few that I would want to think over a little more, discuss between us if someone is interested. As you might guess, they are the ones more magical or fantastical in nature (Arcanist, Theologian come to mind), just to work through how they do or don't translate into the setting.

Seems like a few would need some discussion or story line to explain how the skill was learned or gained, but that is true with a lot of Feats so no real problem there.

On Ivor : Again, good to have you back, Jabes. Don't call it a comeback, Ivor's been here for years! I dig the explanations and links to backstory. Ivor seems like a pretty volatile and scary guy with a lot of suppressed and hidden pressure; not sure exactly what will happen, but it feels like he may be about to go full EXPLOSION MODE in a way that won't be good for his opponents.



On that note, everyone has done such a great work on weaving in backstory and providing so much depth to the characters. I can't believe that these guys have only been in a few scenes. They seem like movie characters that I have known for a long time already.

My opinion:

I really like the options to add skills and expertise with these feats. A lot. It's nice add giving the ability to pick up a +1 to an attribute and another skill (or expertise). I think removing the requirement to take Rogue or Knowledge Cleric just for Expertise is an awesome idea. And, in hindsight, it's so brilliantly basic that I'm surprised it didn't make it into the 5e when they first published it. It just seems so obvious now.

However, I think they easily could have stopped at the +1 & added skill/expertise (which immediately has a value as good, or better, than +2 to an attribute). It's the Expertise that's the real payday there, and well worth the feat when coupled with the +1 attribute. Remember, many players would dip into Rogue just for that Expertise alone, mechanically eliminating a Level 20 ability to do so, because Expertise is that good.

As far as the UA Feats, if it looks like magic, sounds like magic, plays like magic, imitates magic... just dump it.

The reason I'm playing Dark Thrones is because of the almost non-existent level of magic. Hell, I'm thrilled that the group is a bunch of warrior types. Personally, I tend to make wizard type characters and the like; more complex to play, more options and ways to go about doing things. However, I've gotten to the point where (to me) it just seems ridiculous what spellcasters can do, and so I'm off that train and standard issue D&D. Ultimately, as everyone knows, the most invaluable characters are the spellcasters at higher levels; non-magic types are kind of just there, waiting for a melee for the most part because it's the spellcasters that solve everything with their massive repertoire of arcane/divine tools.

If you look at the Your text to link here... it's easy to see that there isn't a non-spellcaster that can hold a candle to any of it. Sure, it might be fun to play a non-caster, but when it comes down to it for traditional D&D, magic is your problem solver and award winner. I have seen non-spellcasters patiently watching from the sidelines, both as a player, and DM. It starts around 5th level.

As we've played, what I'm enjoying the most, as part of the setting, is the complete lack of spellcasting and special effects type abilities (a la the Ranger, Totem Barbarians, Monks, etc). It is absolutely refreshing that the party gets on without any of that, and I also think it adds tremendous mystery to the game, which is the big draw. Regular badass guys with hardware and guts going up against the unknown. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I think even adding minor effects that play like magic will take away from the Dark Thrones setting. Although some could be played off as a character's near mystical sense or feeling (like detect magic from Arcanist) it will still be introducing magic type effects into our game, which will spoil what I think is the best part of Dark Thrones: the mystery. The inability to just use 'magic ability X' and find out 'Y'. Even in our subconscious we'll all know that some iteration of magic is in the game.

From Theologian, even abilities like Detect Evil and Detect Good, again, even portrayed as a character's sense, will still play like magic. And, to me it would simply spoil some of those moments where evil character 'X' posing as a good guy just got revealed by what is simply magic, although we're giving it a different name.

Naturalist... druidcraft/detect poison/detect disease: I think the game has more appeal if someone makes a Medicine check (instead of Detect whatever), or a Survivalist check to predict the weather (instead of druidcraft) where varying degrees of success determine the accuracy of the check, rather than "this is what the weather will be, because you used a spell-like ability."

Survivalist... That alarm spell, even portrayed as a character who is a light sleeper... still, it comes off like magic. That first night we were camping in this game, even though it was uneventful, the group took how to handle the night as an important discussion (fire/no fire, both sides with plenty of merit). The alarm spell from Survivalist will just take some of the edge off, and the edge is what makes the game good.

It's the grittiness of Dark Thrones that has appeal to me, and I think spell type abilities will just dilute the flavor. Usually I like more options, but in this case I have to say that less is more.

Yeah. That is generally my line of thinking. The magic effect stuff is probably not going to be permitted, just to maintain the spirit of keeping this specialized modification on setting intact. I just did not want to get into a long write up on each Feat when I'm not even sure which ones people would be interested in specifically anyway.

It can be case-by-case, more discussion as necessary later, but as mentioned the magic and magic-like effects are probably a "no-go" while the more mechanical and natural performance type options are probably an enthusiastic "go."

Speaking of Titan...

Nice capture there. I find crocodiles, alligators, sharks, killer whales and snakes fascinating. I mean, I don't spend all my time learning about them, but I've just got a sincere appreciation for them and really enjoy those kinds of documentaries.

One of the more interesting tidbits I picked up on a some years ago was how there's a pod of killer whales (fun fact: they are technically dolphins) off of California that hunt great white sharks. The theory is that, at some point, a member of the pod learned that turning sharks upside down causes them to essentially be paralyzed (tonic immobility). Killer whales are extremely intelligent, and it's believed that they started including this lesson in their 'how this pod (family) hunts' training sessions for the young (killer whales around the world have different prey depending on what's available).

Now that pod is known to hunt great whites, and they seem to be mainly interested in eating their livers, IIRC. They pretty much go like a freight train toward the great white, stun it by ramming it, flip it upside down, wait 15 seconds or so for it to go tonic. Serves two.

Sharks are pretty much the scariest thing on the planet.
Here is a book that tells the creepy story of a small set of islands off of the coast of California where Great White Sharks conglomerate, for unknown reasons, traveling from 1000s of miles all over the world to swarm around in this little horrifying death zone: Devil's Teeth.

I agree that great whites are scarier, as I imagine they are far more inclined to eat people... not many stories of killer whales attacking people (except at Sea World, but that's a whole other documentary called Blackfish, about killer whales in captivity turning into psychopathic killers). And if killer whales did put humans on the menu, man...

One of the cool things about great whites they've learned over the last couple of decades: they migrate all over, swimming up to 5,000 feet deep, and are highly social with a pecking order (waiting turns to dine on floating dead whales, great white orgies). I think it was UCLA in the late 70's/early 80's that had a shark maze to test the intelligence of great whites, with symbol markers, testing memory, etc, finding out they are a lot smarter than previously considered.

And the Farallon Island (Devil's Teeth) from that book you reference J is where those killer whales snack on great whites. Biologists have noticed that the sharks tend to leave the area when the orcas show up (if they know what's good for them). Not sure when the change happened in the area, but the Orcas own the Farallon Isles now (depending on the time of year). There are a few videos showing killer whales eating great whites. This one tells it best.

Thanks for the link to that book, by the way. Read the excerpt and it definitely got my attention. Not only does it have great whites gathering in numbers, but when I read that people use to live on those islands, the haunted house, the guy who swims the waters anyway for urchins.

Anyway, for $6 with S&H I bought it. Sounds like there are a lot of good stories in that book, and not just about sharks either.

Awesome. I don't think you will be disappointed. Crazy accounts in every direction about that fierce locale. I read that book many years ago, but the scenes and scenarios still come to mind.
Cool videos you linked. I'm pulling for the orca pods to wipe out those sharks too. That sounds like good news to me.

Fellas,
Sorry. Totally pinned down writing a proposal for work. I'll try to get on the boards early AM.

Been busy at work, will get a post in the next day or so.

What angle to do you guys want to take on Fingol? I'm assuming our characters might of discussed this earlier. Do we want to go the deception route and say we are here to kill Rutcrana to allow him all the prestige?

If Mac Ru is right, saying we're here to kill her could backfire...

Yes it could. It's just a thought. There is a rivalry between them and we could play into that.

I went with the direct approach. My thinking is that if there's something Fingol wants out of the political environment that is this swamp, something that he seeks to gain, he'll enlighten us. He may not give a damn about Rutcrana's daughter, or the girl might be important to everyone... who knows. There are a lot of variables here, so leaving it open seemed a good move.

Let's see what he wants. Might come down to an exchange of sorts. If he has a vested interest in protecting the girl or keeping her hidden, well, then we can take other measures.

Well, Qiu just discus-tossed 30 pounds of food at the man and Ivor is charging toward the building, threatening (damn pit fighters are twitchy, ha!). Pretty sure the guy won't take it well. Let's see how he reacts, since I feel like Fingol's reaction would come before Kray could even answer that question.

I was looking at it along the lines that Fingol is Rutcrana's replacement, so killing him might piss off the Bat Hannocs much like killing Rutcrana would have (losing one of our bonuses). Of course, it might be the classic situation wherein the Bat Hannocs recognize (at some point) that they were being subjugated against their true will (drugs, magic, whatever), so it won't matter (in that scenario we liberate the Bats and it's all good).

Hell, the smoke could be for an escape, a signal for help, etc. Fingol assumed we were friends of Rutcrana's; Kray's most recent words were aimed at helping Fingol realize we just wanted the girl, period. And, since Fingol made it clear that Rutcrana had many daughters, it seemed very possible that the one we're looking for isn't dead. If she was dead, Kray would pack it up and let Zaituc know; there would be no reason to be in Bat Hannoc territory anymore, since we wouldn't be able to collect on the rest of the contract.

Of course, with the smoke/haze, I've considered that this was likely a fight/conflict from the beginning, and the parlay was just fluff. At the same time I was optimistic (hence the Persuasion roll), willing to allow that Fingol might recognize that we're not threatening him, or allies of Rutcrana. In that case the smoke just rolls away with the breeze, we exchange favors, get our answers, and move on. But, like I said, it might just be one of those times in the game where it's time to fight someone or something.

In the end Kray doesn't have a lot of natural fear anymore, after the Mozamyah jungle tragedy when he was a younger man, so he was pretty comfortable waiting for Fingol to play the violence card first, doing something besides blowing smoke, so to speak.

So far Qiu is right there with your thinking, Ez. However, nearly all his experience is on 1 on 1 combat so he tends to act on his considerations alone and to not think of how his team mates will react. This will slowly change as he gains experience working with the group, tho. So, even tho he is making the throw at the cauldron, he thought only of that singular action and did not consider that everyone else would spring into action. (But of course that is pretty obvious to him now...)

I'm hoping to see a strain, holding everyone back and continue the diplomacy. Good luck, Kingsman!

Yo. I'm still here, dying to write the next part of the scene now for sure, BUT still covered up for afternoon at work. And I know the details need some attention too for clarity, so let me make sure I have enough clear time to get it right.
Either early evening or later tonight.

I'm also moderately open on weekend time I think, so we'll see where this goes.

Don't worry, J, Qiu has things under control.

Added a disadvantage roll to my post.

Looks like a introductory battle going on between the mercenaries and The Hive in Ep 1!!!

I'll try to get back on it later today or tonight. I'll also be aware to not get going to far too fast, not sure of everyone's availability and don't want to leave anyone behind.

Before we get too deep into combat, J how do you want to rule my healer feat?



To my knowledge you can do this in combat, but in the spirit of Dark Thrones and realism, I don't know how realistic it is for me to do first aid on someone mid battle.

Ox, ya thanks for the head's up. I hate to answer with an unfavorable ruling, but I cannot help but think that combat trauma management, though it can be fast, is usually going to consume a little bit more time than the roughly speaking 6 seconds of a Standard Action.

We can play it by ear, but I think that to really get out the med bag, assess the wound, get the patient prepped and wounds made accessible for treatment, and start applying bandaging, clotting powders, paste, oil leaves, salves, pressure dressings, whatever - it is a series of actions that takes both medic and patient out of the action over to the side somewhere for a while. You should probably plan on doing it after the action stops or be willing to pull yourself and the injured out of the melee.

I agree 100% I don't think it is realistic at all to be bandaging a wound in 6 seconds. Combat is supposed to be fast and hectic.

Sounds like a short rest thing.

You can do it in combat, but yes it is much more effective on a rest. I just wanted to see how J would rule it.

I just meant that it sounds like it should only be done during short rests in the spirit of Dark Thrones.

The thing is, Ivor was chasing after Fingol. He just threw his handaxe up there and fully intends to follow after it. Qiu's shouting will matter little to him, assuming it even registers. As an ex-gladiator, Ivor's thought process is very similar to Qiu (as CB elaborates on here)... but he was also once part of a Dannein marauder crew, and I imagine he was part of some team fights in the gladiatoral ring as well, so the teamwork is going to gradually come back to him.... but I don't know if it's going to happen right now. Bear in mind, Ivor is in the grip of Rage compounded by tunnel vision brought on by his fear & loathing of the supernatural. He's going up there after Fingol for sure.

EDIT: Is Ivor even aware of the Hive's arrival? He was already chasing after Fingol when they showed up behind him.

Don't get me wrong fellas, I'm totally cool with whatever you decide to do. Personally, in combat I just tend to do what makes the most sense and don't really get into the concepts of "this is what my character is like and would do in situation X because of Y and Z." To me it feels too scripted, and I just can't make that poor tactical choice in the name of RP. I get what you guys are going for, though, and it's all good.

I get what you're saying, Ez. RP can definitely sometimes feel scripted and forced (like playing the Lawful Stupid paladin) but for me personally it's about immersion in the character. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not my PC would do this or say that. I take a few moments and BECOME the character, and write what comes to me. Lots of times what comes out surprises me LOL!

I can appreciate that, it's your style of playing that you enjoy. For me, even if I wanted to try that, when it comes to combat, the tactics and strategy gamer in me would override the shit out of RPing an illogical move. Probably why I generally play characters that are (for the most part) logical/tactical types.

Yeah, I know it wasn't tongue-in-cheek or anything like that. Hell, even if it was, it's a game, so no worries! Last I checked we're here to hang out online, talk some shit, and build a story together. Besides, even If Kray coughs up a lung and is in shock while trying to pick up his severed arm to reattach it, I'll be on the other end of this screen smiling about it. Death happens, and the hope would only be that his death made for a good story.

Nobody's giving up, for sure, but finishing the top of the opening round with 4/41 hp is bad shape to start things, especially looking at a 3 vs 5. The least Kray can do is tank some more damage and soak a hit or two for the team.

J, just a question about the superiority attacks, are you ruling them as strength checks as opposed to strength saving throws?

I'm thinking of them as Saves. Read the rules just to be sure: "the target must make a Strength saving throw."
Haven't scanned back through all of my previous entries, but I may very well have typed them as checks. Not sure. If so, it's a typing error, not a misconception of what is happening.
I understand the difference of the two terms. In a practical sense, in this particular case, I don't see that there will be any difference in the result. They don't always have to be interchangeable of course, but I think they are in this case. If a monster/character has proficiency in STR saves, it is going to be the same modifiers as a STR based Skill that they might also use (Roll + STR Mod + Proficiency). There is nothing weird like Expertise or something that skews that differently.
Right? I'm up for correcting if I'm missing something, but I think everything is as it has been written and I can't think of any mistakes that would have occurred.

I had noticed advantage rolled against the disarm I was assuming that was for the rage from the bull. Sorry if I'm sounding like dick, I don't mean to.

Hahaha! I know. If Kray dies, I'm going to be like: "Fellas! 'Member that time Kray died?! That was BADASS!!! The Hive! FUCK YEAH!!!"

Right you guessed it.
Reread the Barbarian Rage rules: "You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws."
Check or Save, both are rolled twice.
No trouble asking.

I learned something today! Awesome. Ok sorry for the confusion on my end.

Mine too! :-D

Fuck! They are demons! LOL. Well, if our characters didn't believe in that shit, they certainly do now...

I actually enjoy debating theory (which includes even simple things like game mechanics), in addition to designing rules for games (J can attest to that). That being said...

Even the guy who wrote the The Grappler's Manual put it this way, in the second paragraph in the section under 'Why Grappling' (direct quote here, and the math most definitely backs it up):

"Why grapple? Easy; Grappling is mechanically unfair."

Sidenote: His guide has one thing very backwards, and that is that you get your opponent prone before the grapple attempt (more on that below)

Very rarely do I find a game where the rules all make sense (they are, after all, just written by people). Which is why the best 'rule' ever found in a gaming book was in the original Dungeon Master's Guide (loose quote): "Everything in these 'rule books' (DM's Guide, Player's Handbook, etc) are just guidelines-- if they don't work for you, throw them out or change them." At the same time, I can, to a lesser extent, appreciate the "Fuck it, who cares, let's just play the game" approach. They both have their value, depending.

However, the latter approach has the potential down the road to enter that situation where the broken gaming mechanic is happening in front of the gaming group's eyes, and it is painfully obvious, and breaks the 'belief' and immersion in the game, which is why, in general, game makers try their damndest to have the rules make sense, so that the narrative and action in the game is believable (relative to the setting/game). When things don't make sense the effect inherently connects to the rest of the game.

Although sometimes games have to be pushed out the door and start being sold... maybe that's what happened with grapple-- "Bob, we don't have time to talk about this anymore, deadlines and all. I don't care if it doesn't make sense. Screw it. We can fix it later. It's D&D 5e so they'll buy it anyway."
The guy prone on the ground is very much at a Disadvantage, while the standing grappler is at an Advantage. It's the whole point and focus of the Grappler build.

The formula for the grappler is simple:

(1) put opponent on ground (shield bash bonus action is an expedient way to do so, not to mention boosting the grappler's AC while the grappler ignores AC via grapple). This is the part where the author of the Grappler's Manual got it wrong. Put them on the ground first, then...

(2) grapple, immobilizing them in the prone position (with Advantage on the roll now because grapple is an attack and the defender is already prone)

(3) use additional attacks (depending on level) to attack defender with Advantage on the dice because they are prone.

(4) Rinse and repeat as necessary.

The beauty of this method (which is not salient now at our low level, due to only having one attack) is that the higher level the Grappler gets, giving them more attacks, the greater the benefits to this method, as the prone/grappled character has to use all of their attacks (no matter what level) to try and escape advantage/disadvantage prone hell, or simply allow the grappler to keep Advantage while they keep on fighting from the ground with Disadvantage. Besides the fact that grapple ignores combat mechanics completely (AC, Maneuvers, class abilities, some feats, everything), this is the big flaw: one attack to grapple an opponent, all attacks to try and escape. Even when J first had the Bull try to escape Qiu's grapple, he used one attack to do so because instinctively it probably made more sense, so it was reflexive to write the Bull's actions that way.

At some point one has to wonder if the prone guy is just better off staying prone and fighting at a Disadvantage, instead of potentially forfeiting all of their attacks to try and escape at a 50% chance. And this is where you start to realize the mechanics around grapple are broken, because there is really no good choice in this situation.
Even the slowest D&D player would be able to grasp "armor doesn't count for AC when grappling." And if they couldn't grasp it... well, I'm sure at least one of the guys at the table could explain it, or simply say: "this is what they need to hit." Just like every other combat mechanic (e.g., Maneuvers), use the 'to hit' for the grapple to connect and then apply a DEX or STR save. Simple. Or use 'to hit' and then introduce the contested skill checks, similar to a saving throw. But eliminating the entire combat mechanics as they apply to AC... bad call.

Sometimes rules can be overly simplistic, like shields are in standard 5e D&D-- +2 AC no matter what size, and no extra benefits vs ranged attacks? It's why I suggested the shield house rules changes to J for Dark Thrones, along with the idea for Combat Proficiency-- shouldn't characters be able to fight with a focus on defense? Rules are written by people, and just because they wrote the book that sells in digital and print format doesn't mean it can't be done better. Hell, for all we know the 5e team might admit to the brokenness of the grappling mechanic and fix it sometime down the road. Dig around a little and it's universally accepted as broken, just not officially. Yet.
It most definitely isn't simulated by the rules all that well. Not even close. Just like the guy said: "Why grapple? Easy; Grappling is mechanically unfair."

Please pardon Ez and I as we geek out about rules.

Before I even read the spoiler and the rest of what you wrote I had to post this. I actually laughed out loud for real. "While we geek out about rules"... well put, well out. Geek out. :)

I make use of the shield Master bonus Action shove every round before attacking, if they go down, you get advantage if not, who cares - I was going to attack anyway.
Just to preface this, I've read this manual multiple times and have wanted to play a grappler for a long time. So I'm living vicariously through Qiu.

One of the big things about grappling mechanically, is it's not an attack roll. It's an athletics skill check. So I don't think advantage would apply. Grappling not being an attack is a huge part of that guide.

From the PHB:

"When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple."

It's an attack that literally uses one attack from your action.

I like your move to use the spoiler, CB. That way those who don't want to read our geekery don't have to.

Totally enjoying the geekery. :-D

---

As posted in the Absences thread:

J, I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the crap out of this combat scene.

It is a massive breath of D&D fresh air to have a bunch of killers mauling each other with 'hardware and steel' (as you so aptly put it weeks ago). And the hint of the magical (Fingol) and the supernatural (Phantom's gravity defying leap) allow a heavy does of mystery in a setting like this, making the traces of the unknown all that more powerful and weighty. Battle scenes like this, without the constant flying fireballs and magical poofs and color streams, etc, make the fight more believable and give it that much more RPG gravity. Heavy metal with guys trying to leave one another in a pool of their own blood.

It is, without a doubt, magnitudes better than classic elves and wizards fare. Awesome dopeness.

I agree 100%. I find myself spending my limited gaming time getting caught up here and not posting as much in the two games I'm running nor the other game I'm playing in. I'll send your apologies to the players in the other games, DMJ.

Yep, this is the game to check on. Admittedly, I bowed out of two other GP games due to time constraints, but a factor was that I wanted to focus on being a part of one really good PbP game, rather than spreading myself thinner with every additional PbP game. I know some people play literally dozens of PbP games, but it's just not my thing (personal preference, to each their own, etc).

Ahhhhh. Thanks for letting me know that you care. FAGS!!

Nah ... I'm really glad that you guys are bringing the heat against this setting with some pipe-hitting shot-caller characters that aren't half-stepping around throwing Perception checks every post and acting like pussies. There were a lot of people that I talked to by PM before and after we started, but I'm convinced that we got the exact right team together for this crazy shindig.

This scene is totally out-of-control versus how I was predicting it. You just never freaking know what will happen once everyone reacts to what they see and hear. Plus the dice continue to throw their weight around to steer alongside Player strategy. Classic unpredictability in a story that we just don't know where it will go. Good ish!

Plus I'm laughing it up and thinking it over at the same time during the unbridled nerdery on rules. I can't spend my all-too-rare minutes weighing in on the professional wrestling debate, but you guys are making great points. I'll have to chime in some day in the future with more time.

I'm Audi for the night probably - catch up manana.

LMAO for real, man. Thorn could always work on his DEX and team with Kray to make the showman-flash part of the rumble team.

Btw, Bull has taken 73 hp damage. At this point, including J's hints of "these guys are taking more than a man can take", I think it's probably a safe assumption that our characters are like sparring partners in this fight. Well... hopefully killing Fingol is the answer (maybe he's something like a necromancer and those dudes will drop when Fingol drops), because I can't see someone lighting a fire during combat with a tinderbox (that would take minutes) and none of us have a flamethrower. Of course, now that I think about it, there is a fire where the cauldron was... maybe we could torch up and burn these bitches that way? Or rip the masks off! Wow... hell, that might actually be worth a try?

The above unknowns actually reflects some of the coolness of Dark Thrones... none of us are going "oh, those mask guys are X creatures from the Monster Manual, just cast Mordenkainen's Undeniable Punkassnessosity on them and we'll be good. Yeah man, look 'em up on page 121. M's Punkassnessosity will have those mask dudes pissing their legs and gibbering."

Ha... moving on... if they don't do the classic bleed and die (and J hasn't described any blood in this scene, even though I know Kray skewered Bull and Talius nailed him with the hammer solid as hell), there's got to be some weakness, whether it's Fingol, fire, or the masks, silver... you know, the classics. Find their weakness or snuff the source of their power.

The cool part is that we don't know.

Ez nailed it, that really is why this is the best game I've played in a long time, I have no fucking idea what we are up against and it makes combat so much more fun.

You might be onto something Ez, these guys might be vodoo ghosts or something fucked up and we are on the ground wasting our time.

Y'all, I'm a big WWF/WWE fan from way back. In fact, pretty soon, it's probably going to become a requirement that everyone has to pick out Intro Music for their characters.
I mean, think about rolling up into an encounter with this playing in the background. Advantage Intimidation checks!?!
Or maybe a team intro song like the best Team Intro Song of All Time.
When you guys get up in the higher levels, maybe you will be this famous. Holy Ish that's an unbelievable crowd pop.

X, that was an awesome find on that 619 compilation too. Rey Mysterio would definitely be a high-DEX Fighter Battlemaster/ Rogue Thief build.

But let's not forget the best unarmed strike finisher of all time either as we think these things over. No wonder they call Shawn Michaels "The Showstopper."

D7D wrestling might be broken, Ez, but at least real professional wrestling is totally badass. Gimme a "Hell YEAH!"

I'm a fan of DDP from back in the day.

Thanks for hanging in there with the mystery. One of the goals that I think (at least hoped) that we were all looking for was some creepiness and attempt to really capture the idea of a dangerous unknown.

After playing the game for so many years, I always try to think "What if I was with a regular team of real life guys, even badass highly trained soldiers, and then we rolled up on things that happen in the game, in real life?"

I mean really - think about it. Like this situation: really rowing out for multiple days deep into a swamp, stories of sicko swamp people killers out there, alligators everywhere, rolling up on a witch house, crazy silent dudes in animal masks showing up out of nowhere. I was actually thinking it over more of what Jabes was writing, about how he was playing Ivor, who inside is just freaking creeped out and sick of all of this unexplainable stuff. It's making him angry inside and he just wants to snuff it out. And as he chooses what to do, sometimes that makes him seem a little strange, quiet, unpredictable. I think it is a real possibility as a true-to-life reaction.

I always try to keep the realness projection in mind when thinking of a fight against unnatural opponents, and always pretty much think of a few things as an answer:
1) it would be freaking creepy and scary (if you don't want to say scary, say nerve-wracking or shocking or whatever), and
2) it would be extremely confusing to know what to do. You would just have to dig deep, remember training, and keep fighting with everything you've got. And that means resolve, courage, balls but also with your weapons, guns, swords, whatever you had. And
3) it would really make you cling to the people that you are fighting with, because when the whole world is coming to kill you and everything you thought you knew is out the window, I know for sure that it is good to see someone beside you fucking hacking and shooting and fighting and sucking it up with you. You'd really have to stick together, or everything would unravel. And then that becomes convincing that a group of 4 or 5 guys become a Team, or a Party.

A little hard to create the feeling for all of us sometimes. We've read the stats, seen the pictures, been a part of all the battles before, and they are like the color drawings. No one's fault. It's just hard to escape it sometimes unless you really get away from the books and the stat charts and ditch the idea of a guaranteed balance - and just picture it as a real thing you were doing outside in a real swamp, real guys attacking you. Nothing to do but just keep swinging, shooting, and look for some way to get them to stay down.

I have to say this set up for fingol, the whole approach and this combat has been absolutely vivid in my mind. I'm thinking about it at work checking the forums to see if there's an update (even though I have post notification) and to see where the fight is going next.

This is me.

Have you done the "read all the posts then click on the forums link (at the top) and scroll down to Dark Thrones to see if it is highlighted in color now or just gray"?

My mom always told me to never get cocky because no matter how good I was at something, there was always someone better. And you guys are definitely winning the nerd race.

I used to hear the same line about being cocky. And, in appreciation of humility and the modern 'everyone who participates gets an award' spirit, you too are a winner nerd CB.

Shit just got real.

Y'all, I ran a live game this weekend with my son and his friends (19 year-olds, but they are pretty solid D7D gamers and pretty funny on the chatter too) plus my youngest daughter (she's a good bit younger).

It was a sesh that I had written notes on several weeks ago, but my son has not been home for the past few weekends, so I was a little cold on reading back through the game plan and getting it back underway. Stumbled a little, but got in a good flow after a few minutes.

BUT it just stayed weird for me for the whole time. It's a long running campaign with a Warlock, a half-orc female, plus there were a couple of dwarves. Warlock was summoning a Night Gaunt. The party was fighting a big crazy monster. Eldritch Blasts everywhere. People were flying. One big duel ended up being 2 Warlocks in a toe-to-toe battle, close range, both using Vampiric Touch to drain each other and heal themselves. Pretty cool actually and the crowd loved it, but it was crazy.

There was some melee and fighting for sure, but no one had Advantage or Disadvantage too much. Not that many opposing STR checks. Pretty routine on the attacks and a the back and forth.

I had a real blast, and everyone else too, but I definitely was suffering from Dark Thrones culture shock through the 2 hour sesh. This (Dark Thrones) is a different game from everything else, y'all. It's rough. It's technical. It's complicated, but it's controlled. An all-pro player's club in you guys that brings the game to a really high level. Thanks for the gaming. It's really a different feel. I like the other stuff sometimes too, and love hanging out gaming with the kids and a live crowd, but this game online here is aqua-fresh.

I have a couples game coming up. I convinced my wife to play with a friend of mine and his wife. We are running through Storm Kings Thunder and it's been pretty fun so far, but life got in the way and we haven't played in months. We just scheduled our next session and I'm trying to rehash what I wrote before Christmas, so I know the feeling. We are about to do a massive giant fight that the group doesn't know about and I hope I don't kill them all hahaha.

I haven't played or DM'd any of the module books, but Storm Kings looks really cool (I'm guilty of thumbing through those hardbacks in the book store with no intention to buy).

Seems like when giants are stomping around everywhere, it's a pretty high percentile chance for PC death(s) (does everyone really start at level 1 versus giants?!). Just be sure to kill the neighbor's characters and not your wife's. She might cut you off if you embarrass her like that in front of the crowd.

It eases the PCs into world of Giants, I'm rolling 3d10+7 ranged rock throws and level 1s would would be turned to paste. The module gets the PCs to level 5 pretty fast and then brings on the giants. The rest of book has them traipsing through the sword coast.

I'm really jealous Qiu got a trophy before me, I wanted a bull horn from my buddy that just won't die.

I love Bill the Butcher! Check this out: "This is a wound. This is a kill."

Such a good scene I need to watch that movie again.

I brought my wife to see that movie on Valentine's Day when we were dating, bahahaha. She must've really liked me because she still married me.

Yeah... best character in that movie by far. A deep character too; not necessarily the 'bad guy', but just a guy with different beliefs who thinks he doing what's best, a result of the culture of the time and his life experiences. Of course, his egocentric beliefs left a little to be desired, to be sure.

It's definitely more of a movie for a guys, but I think there's enough to enjoy in the movie for it to be generally liked as a film. And usually a Scorcese movie is generally just a good movie.

Kray is, without a doubt, capable of a tremendous amount of wrath (an instruction tool for those that oppose him and deserve his ire). He's also undoubtedly learned the appreciation for subtlety and the value of political machinations, swimming in House Mercon politics his whole life (whether he wanted to or not). I imagine he finds politics a tedious tool at best, but a necessary one at times due to the immense power one can derive from it, as demonstrated on a repeated basis by Rison.

Obviously not happening before Ivor is rid of Bird, and even then depending on how things shake out Ivor may decide to do something else but theoretically would it be possible for Ivor to take a running jump from the balcony and come down on top of Bear or Goat or even an alligator? I expect that'll require a successful Athletics or Acrobatics roll or something. With that kind of momentum would the trident be doing any sort of extra damage? If not then it's cool, just thought I'd ask. At any rate it seems like a pretty cool scene. Right now Ivor can't seem to catch a break against anything he's fought against. :-(

I love that idea. Would be an outstanding addition to this raging action scene. I guess the devil is in the details - mainly on the distance of the position that is trying to be reached by the jump. Let's make the call now that the upper deck extends out over the water for 25' at the very longest extending corner. At that point it is 17' high above the water.
So then it is a physics word problem right? We could study up on the Running Long Jump Rules, figure out that with Ivor's STR. Then boost it up a little bit to allow for the extra distance that would be gained during the 17' drop, plus toss in a couple of extra feet for arbitrary and shameless DM discretionary theatrical allowance. We could arrive at a total distance that could be reached.
Then it would be a question of: where is Qiu/Goat/Bear/Alligators? I am keeping track of that now, even though it is not being published on the boards, and I will reveal when/if it becomes a target that is trying to be reached, if we make the judgement that they could realistically be seen somehow from the deck.
Let's see what happens. It sounds like timing and upcoming developments will be everything.

As far as the extra damage on Trident if Ivor crashes in airborne directly on somebody, I think that is possible. Need to study some rules, see if we can come up with a correlation to something similar. Maybe something similar to a charge with a Lance? Not sure, but will look. If there is nothing published, might end up being some sort of mini-boost by DM fiat.

Haha here's another one: when they fail on a Grapple attempt against Ivor, can he Riposte?

"Riposte Maneuver: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, use your reaction to make a melee attack against that creature...."

EDIT: I've been giving this lots of thought and at first I was leaning towards NO, reasoning that when an attacker loses the contested roll on a Grapple attempt he still does connect but just fails to latch on. But if you watch a wrestling or MMA match you know it's quite possible to catch nothing but air and canvas when you try to shoot for a takedown. And anyways, when you fail to hit AC on a regular melee attack that doesn't necessarily mean a failure to connect - you could have just been parried or stopped by armor.

Mechanics aside, I'm trying to picture it in my head: attacker makes a grab, and defender dances out of the way, or gets grabbed but is too strong and jerks free before the attacker can really take control. In either case I can see a wily defender easily taking a cheap shot at the attcker.

So is that a YES? :-D

Right on, Jabes. Wrestlemania controversy continues!
I read this yesterday, thought it over, realize there could be a debate either way, but I was in the "YES" Camp pretty quickly.

I think it applies, both to continue in treating wrestling as an attack by way of allowing follow-on effects for attacks to apply, and like you said by plain realism. If a guy is trained up to take advantage of moments when his opponents commit too heavily on an shots against him (in essence a Battle Master who has Riposte Maneuver), then I can see how it would definitely apply to a wrestle attack. I would have to think it would be ESPECIALLY true (on realism) if the Riposte Battlemaster was using a weapon and the opponent was moving in close on a grapple attempt but fails. Talk about exposing yourself to a high risk for a painful rebuttal. I'm thinking about shooting in low to grab a leg for a takedown on a knife wielding Bill the Butcher, ...BUT MISSING. Bill's prob going to make me pay for that a little extra with a knife shot to the rib cage that he practices for just these occasions.

So all clear for the Riposte strikeback as Reactions on botched wrestle moves.
I would have to look back to be sure, but I think Ivor could actually be staged up for one of those right now if he chooses (I think it would apply backwards into TR6, but would also flow right into your BR6 series if you use it).

Open Debate for Clarity on Versatility of Proficiency House Rule

X and I, behind the Note function admittedly, were discussing the finer details of how the mechanics of the switch on Proficiency might work. I'm talking about the House Rule that allows for use of Proficiency Bonus to be either used "Offensively" (as a Bonus to Attack efforts, this is the default and the traditional way of the rules as written) OR "Defensively" (as a Bonus positive adjustment to gain a higher AC, this is in essence the adjusted House Rule allowance option).

But how does it work? When does it take effect? When can you shift it? Good questions. I have been thinking of it, want to post what I think is the correct ruling, but also open it up to the crowd for debate if necessary, and for clarity. Especially want to hear from Ez, because 1) he is the author of this rule really, and 2) I think he and I may be at opposite ends of interpretation at the moment.

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): I think the Offense or Defense Proficiency choice must be "set" during 1 round with a decision, but does not take effect until the following round, and that the setting either way must be "locked" within the confines of each complete round. I disagree that the Proficiency choice can be used in a manner similar to Movement, to be distributed anywhere in the sequence of a Bottom or Top segment of a round, and takes application at any time that the player chooses (before attack, after attack, etc.) within his part of the "Half Round" fragment.

The reason why is that the "setting" offense or defense spans across both "fragments" or "halves" of the round, both the Top and the Bottom, and effects both the PC and the opponent. I feel like that means it has to be static fixed to the whole round.

Here is a copy of what I wrote to X as an initial shot at explaining with example...
Another example could go the other way. Picture again, Player vs. Opponent. This time Player wins Initiative. It's Round 1. Player is Level 1, so has a +2 Proficiency.

Player is at the default setting of Offense, the Proficiency will be used as a +2 to hit Opponent. Player has control of Top of Round 1. He takes the shot, needs a 14, rolls a 15. That's a hit.

Still within TR1, Player decides to adjust Proficiency setting to Defense. That means a -2 to AC. But when? Different answers have different effects.

Interpretation 1: Like Movement, the Proficiency setting shift can be used any time and applies during the part of the round controlled by the Player. In the example, Player's AC shifts up 2 slots right then and there during TR1. Let's say it moves from 15 to 17.
So the Round Moves from Top to Bottom. In BR1, Opponent tries to hit. He rolls a 16. That's a miss.
Result: Player scored a hit that was dependent on the Offensive Proficiency adjustment, BUT Opponent scored a Miss that was dependent on the Defensive Proficiency adjustment, and it all happened in the same round. I think that is "double dipping", "having cake and eating it too" can't think of other cheesy metaphors...but just not what we were intending with this rule adjustment.

Interpretation 2: The decision to shift can occur in TR1 (or even any time before Round 2), but the shift to/from Offense to/from Defense does not take effect until the following round. In the same situation above, Player rolls attack against opponent with Offense setting, so Proficiency applies to Attack. He needs 14, rolls 15. That's a hit. Fair.
Then Player says "I want to switch to a more Defensive stance as I fight. Converting Proficiency to Defense." Fair enough, but Opponent needs to get a chance to face Player in the same manner that Player came at him, which was with more aggression and a little less concern with avoiding hits. Same as above, Opponent rolls a 16. Player's AC is still a 15. That is a hit for Opponent against Player. And it should be. Starting in Round 2 though, Player will be not quite as good at scoring a hit, but he will be harder to hit as a target. When BR2 rolls back around, if Opponent rolls a 16, that will be a miss.

So there it is. Long-winded, but hoping to be as clear as possible to make the case.
Open for rebuttals.

I had a similar problem in another game. I brought the bug to Keleth's attention here. I'm sure another specimen will help him figure the problem out.

Okay, Jabes, that was supposed to be in a note also...

Can you see my note back to him, also?

I read your link; maybe the trick for now is just to keep Notes as free as possible from other commands like OOC and Quotes?

Your reply to J is hidden from me. Yeah that seems to be it: no additional tags inside Notes.

Haha. I think I'm going to discontinue all notes. All players gain Clairvoyant Condition, effective immediately. :)

Was trying to use the Note option veil to create some realism of confusion and "the fog of war" but to be honest I'm getting a little tired of the typing and the command words. Plus I sort of want us to hang out more openly and see the story from a gaming perspective with full vision. There has been some pretty cool ish going on in these side scenes, so maybe a shame that they are not public knowledge just for the sake of entertainment.

Everybody just be responsible with making decisions from only their player's vantage point and resist temptation to meld choices towards optimal conjunction with other things going on that you know as a Player but your character doesn't. I know from experience that that can be hard sometimes, but you guys are good players and no one is going to hold it against anyone for NOT acting on their character's behalf if the other character wouldn't have known the information.

EDIT: to be clear, if people want to send Notes still, that's fine. I'm just going to stop using them as a method to partition off different parts of vision and separated story. For this scene at least. I know that has it's drawbacks too, and maybe there will be future reasons for partitioning, but we'll cross that bridge later. So ... Notes not outlawed, just adjusted in my reasons for use.

Oh god, does this mean I can go and edit out all the [note] stuff in my posts so everyone can see the weird-ass shit Thorn's been up to?!! :D

Haha. Yo X, hold off on that. Leave that for a campfire story or an After Action Review (AAR).

And too, I would personally leave out that part about Thorn winding up naked and covered in lube oil and all those things he did really quick with those farm animals. Bro, I recommend not telling the other guys about that - EVER. lLike I said before in other Notes, I understand why you did it, but you've got to admit it was pretty weird.

This will be my last use of Note function, ok? I want to be responsible and not let that part slip out.

I guess you could say he was feeling... Thorny.

It's a tiny thing and might not matter, but then again it might: When Ivor hit the Phantom with a crit back in the 2nd round I rolled the extra damage die with no modifiers as per standard 5E rules, forgetting the house rule on Increased Severity of Critical Hits.

In short, Phantom should have taken an extra 4 hp damage.

TBH DMJ, that wall of text explaining your position on the proficiency bonus was pretty hard to parse, and I am not sure what your position actually is now. To be fair tho, I just woke up and haven't had coffee yet...

It seems simole enough to me that it is a free action that may be made at any time during your turn, but only once per round. The only "exploit" then would to always have it set to defense before a fight and then adjust to attack just before you make your first attack on your turn. It basically just means that you always have a higher AC if you lose inititive.

If you really are worried that it is an exploit, then you could make it a bonus action and lossibly a reaction to adjust.

Judging by narration from the early rounds (see below) Ivor has been fighting just outside the shed, and so within reach of that middle door. Depending on how Ivir and his opponents have circled each other in vombat it's entirely possible that as the door begins to open he might not notice it. But tganks to Kray's wsrning he'll definitely hustle to put the Bird in between him and the door.

Even though it's been described well enough I'm still not entirely sure where Kray is positioned relative to Ivor and Qiu. When I say Ivor puts Bird between him and the door I'm imagining he puts the water behind him as a possible escape route if things get really bad, but also don't want to block Kray's line of sight.

Combat Proficiency

So, there's a lot written below, but the idea I'm going for is to be thorough. And no, I don't think adjusting Combat Proficiency should cost a Bonus Action or Reaction. Adjusting combat efforts/focus seems more instinctive/reflexive than needing an action of any sort, not to mention I think losing Bonus Actions & Reactions will make combat less interesting (removing some of the coolness of existing Bonus Actions and Reactions from combat). That being said...

First off, we have a huge advantage as far as keeping a great house rule simple. We're playing initiative in groups, so there is a top half and a bottom half. That being said, I think this makes it easy to allow players to declare their Combat Proficiency (hereafter simply noted as 'CP') adjustment at the start of their turn only, before any move or action/bonus action. The thing is, when I brought up the idea of a flexible CP to J, we both immediately concluded that the idea was just good, giving players the option to have their own fighting style or adjust tactics based on the situation. We didn't put much more thought into it. J put it down and we moved on (admittedly, the vast majority of my focus was on Shield rules and Rituals, and no doubt that J was ultra busy, which is ultra clear in the depth of resources and references available to us about the setting, etc). CP just made sense, should be in the core D&D 'rules' anyway, so I don't think J and I thought it needed any more love. Like a good shark, it seemed like it was born and ready to swim away.

Xorthan brought it up (like a top notch playtester), and that's good. It should be clarified. And it didn't take much thought at all, once prompted by J's response to X's inquiry, to come to the easy conclusion that CP can be exploited, depending. The good news is that I don't think we need to get to complicated with it. I believe we can keep the the idea of adjusting CP to something that is done on a player's turn, with a simple catch.

I get what J's going at here, regarding characters adjusting their CP potentially creating unevenness in combat (or NPC's adjusting CP, for that matter, depending on how J uses it). However, because of the group initiative, this isn't a factor, although it might seem like it perceptually.

---

CP at the Start of Combat

Before I forget, I want to say this: J's point about opening combat with a CP set to Defensive AC+ being problematic is very valid. I think there are two ways to go on that.

(1) You can't set an AC+ bonus to your CP until your first turn in combat. Makes sense, giving value to initiative (which should have value!). Initiative winners are more ready for combat, so should have an advantage, whether it's bonuses to attack or defend.

(2) You need to have a weapon in hand to set your CP to AC+, demonstrating battle readiness, vigilance, combat mode... whatever. This, however, takes away from characters like Qiu, or any unarmed combat situation, literally creating a rule mechanic wherein you need a weapon in hand to officially go AC+. A shield might do as well, which would make sense.

Of those two above, I think #2 is realistic enough. But again, it requires something in hand, which takes away from the unarmed schools of combat. Also, I think it's even more realistic that the group that wins initiative is getting the drop on the other group, and should have an advantage in that regard. So, my recommendation and vote is for #1. I think your CP should, by default, be set to Attack bonus per traditional D&D rules until the player makes an adjustment on their first turn whenever that is.

Remember, the point of #1 and #2 above is to avoid the simple exploit of PC's defaulting to AC+ as a means of always ensuring that their AC is higher at the start of any combat.

In conclusion on this component of CP, I'm fine with either, but prefer #1, which will entirely avoid the potential for any exploit as J noted previously.

---

When CP Can Be Adjusted

Now, as far as whether or not we should require PC's to set their CP at the start of a round or a turn:

Besides the concern for exploitable mechanics, what popped out right away for he purposes of PbP gaming is this: if we create a rule where PC's must set their CP at the start of each round, we are literally going to add another step in between rounds. Now, I'm enjoying this combat thoroughly, but imagine if between each round J had to wait for each of us to potentially adjust our CP's. Yes, we could claim it in advance, during our turn at the bottom or top of a round, but mechanically J would be inclined to wait, allowing for us to make a tactical decision between rounds (as would make sense).

Finding out at the very end of a round that your character is now surrounded by 3 NPC's could definitely affect your tactical decision making. Then we could eventually run into "well... J that's not really a hit because I was going to adjust my CP, but just didn't do so in time." I say screw that shit show of potential complications. Let's keep it simple, and have players take their turn on their actual turn, rather than introducing another phase (CP declaration) between combat rounds. Usually simple isn't good enough for me, and I just want realistic. In this case, they're both the same; we don't have to sacrifice realistic game mechanics at the RPG altar of simplicity.

I don't see any mechanical reason to require the CP to be declared at the start of a round, although I can understand how one could perceive that there should be a need to do so. If we declare our CP's at the start of our turns, that will suffice mechanically and have the same effect as declaring it at the start of a round, especially because we're doing group initiative. Even though, if we we're doing individual initiatives, I still think declaring it at the start of a turn would be fine, for one simple reason: each PC/NPC only gets one turn a round, and once they declare their CP, they are stuck at the setting for an entire round, until their next turn comes.

The thing is, as much as the rules try to mimic simultaneous combat (which is the point J is going at), the simple fact is that combat is turn-based, and our PC's actions are affected by what's going on. As players, we choose our character's actions and movements based on what happened before their turn.

In our current battle, I had Kray switch to using a ranged weapon once he recognized there wasn't a melee threat nearby. Qiu dragged Goat away from Kray because Kray was getting his ass handed to him at the top of round 1. Talius moved in between Kray and Bull for the same reason. All were choices made based on the linear results of turn-based combat. In the same fashion, it makes sense for PC's to adjust their CP on their turn, making a tactical choice due to the progression and results of turns in combat. I think this, along with ideas mentioned above, is a key reason to simply allow the player to declare their CP at the start of their own turn.

---

An Example of CP in Action
---allowing for it to be set at the start of a PC turn, before any movement, action, or bonus action
---and why it shouldn't be allowed on just ANY part of the player's turn (most notably after all movements and actions are taken, wherein a nasty exploit could be taken advantage of by semi-savvy players

The below will show how rounds and turns will play out, with the NPC's at the top of the round, PC's at the bottom (exactly like the current combat in our game). Let's assume that the PC starts the combat with Attack Bonus for CP (as that seems a good default as I mentioned above). Notice that even if the player changes their CP every round, it's still only once a round, and that character is stuck with that CP until the start of their next turn. J, I think this creates the desired effect you're looking for: when the NPC's take their turn, whatever the player set their character's CP at is going to be for a whole round, free for any NPC to attack (and adjust to) as they see fit. I think this also mirrors combat in the sense that if a combatant seemed to be on the defensive, the attacker might adjust and further focus his efforts on offense. Mechanically, the point is that the player can't get an Attack Bonus and then switch to Defense Bonus before the NPC's next turn. Whatever style the PC uses, Attack or Defense, that's it for the entire round, meaning their CP choice will effect their Attack Bonus and AC Bonus for the entire round. Every NPC in the fight will get a chance at the PC, whatever they chose.


Format
#= Round Number
N=NPC turn
P=PC turn (a=CP set to max Attack Bonus at the start of PC turn, d=CP set to max Defense Bonus at the start of PC turn)

1
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

2
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

3
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

4
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

5
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

6
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

7
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

8
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

...and so on.

Again, the PC will always have to go an entire round with their CP choice (and can't just start combat with extra Defense Bonuses as a default). They'll never be able to exploit an Attack Bonus and switch to Defense (or vice versa) because they must declare their CP at the start of their turn, and I think that's the key: at the start of their turn.

Otherwise, allowing CP to be set anyime during a turn is the real concern, allowing a situation where PC's will have an Attack Bonus every round while the NPC's deal with that PC's Defense Bonus every other round.

Using the start of turn CP adjustment method outlined above will also work out just like any tactical choice in combat (positioning, maneuver use, Second Wind, weapon choice, active Feat use like Shield Bash, etc) wherein adjusting CP will naturally flow with the course of combat, as needed depending on the situation in conjunction with the player's personal combat style and the results of progressive turn-based combat.

Given the above (if you read it all, hats off and thanks for taking the time), I think we avoid introducing another phase between combat rounds, all while keeping things realistic and in-line with the existing turn-based combat system.

Yo, Ez. At least you and I both are keeping it simple and interesting in our writing.
(If there were a SARCASM Text option, I would have coated that last sentence in it).

Uuughh. This next is going to be so terrible to write, and surely even worse to read.
(Ez has known me the longest and he knows I try to stay in the camp of "Come on, y'all. I'm tired of talking that rules ish - let's just play", but also knows that I can't help but wade into Rules Lawyering despite my best efforts to avoid)

Hey, I think we are pretty close to an agreement here, but I think (not sure) that I'm proposing something a little different.

Agreement on Possibility of Exploit: I do think that if we don't address this, there could be an exploit. At maximum, it could be abused to the point of getting either: 1) an Attack boost every round AND an AC boost every other round, or 2) an AC boost every round AND an Attack boost every other round. It should go without saying that I'm not concerned with people TRYING to exploit. I don't necessarily know if there has even been any unintended advantages or not. I'm just bringing it up because it could lead to mistakes I think and some possibility of INADVERTENT unfair advantages.

Agreement that the Combat Proficiency (CP) Setting is NOT any sort of Action Itself: It's important to me NOT to turn this into some sort of Action (Bonus, Reaction, etc.). To me it is something OUTSIDE OF ACTIONS. It is something that informs actions both coming from you and going towards you, but it is not an Action itself.

Belief that CP SETTING MUST BE LINKED TO ENTIRE ROUNDS: Will try to cut to the chase and explain that I think that each person's CP Setting, either CP Offense or CP Defense, must be set before entire rounds. I think that announcing before a player's action series at the beginning CAN work just the same, BUT because of the nature of rounds and initiative that there COULD be a subtle difference.

It mostly matters if a player is either at the TOP of the Round (wins Initiative) or at the BOTTOM of the Round (loses Initiative). But even if we were doing normal table top Initiative, in which everyone could be distributed in any sequence, the same situation would apply: to be fair, everyone's setting should be set for the whole round.

If a player is at the TOP, wins Initiative, the idea of "pick your CP Setting to either CP Offense or CP Defense at the beginning of your Turn" works just fine. He gets his Actions with the setting applied accordingly, and then in order waits for the opponent (BOTTOM Actor) to respond under the same circumstances.

If the player is at the BOTTOM, loses Initiative, the idea of "pick your CP Setting to either CP Offense or CP Defense at the beginning of your Turn" doesn't NECESSARILY work out just fine. If he changes it, say from CP Defense to CP Offense, then the opponent who previously acted at the Top of the round just swung at the wrong AC. There is a chance that a Miss would have been a hit.

Rebuttal I think would be that the adjustment would last from BR1 through TR2. The AC will carry over to next round, and that will apply to the opponent's strikes. That is not convincing to me, because again the guy who won initiative already made a hit. He HAS to know what the setting is for his opponents AC ahead of time, so everything has to stay static.

Plus, even if it were to work (I don't think it does), it invites confusion when things are spread between rounds (Was that CP Setting Change applying from TR1 through BR1? Or was it BR1 through TR2?)

To me, the simplicity happens when both sides (or even all people if everyone was distributed as a mix of good guys and bad guys) have to enter an entire round with their CP Settings set to either Offense or Defense.

It does have a slightly different feel to it, depending on win/lose Initiative or Bottom/Top of Round. I get that. But really it is the very same spot that the change takes effect. It's that moment right between rounds. For people who are on the Bottom, that point seems like a "predictive" setting. For people on the Top, that may seem like a more "assertive" or "controlling" setting. Maybe so, but it's really the same moment.

Why it won't delay the game: Definitely appreciate all concerns to not having any further delay. In this case though, I think it just keeps flowing; as DM, I don't intend to wait. I do think Player's should announce their settings, their setting changes especially, but in the end it is "Big Boy Rules." Everyone just has to police themselves. As DM, I really don't pay that close of attention to what is a hit or what is a miss when it comes to Players. I just post up the result of the dice roll. It is up to the Player's to record what is a hit and what is not. So it everyone needs to be clear on this rule for sure.

Summary: The default setting should be CP Offense. That's like normal rules.
And then if you want a setting change, it should be announced. And then it takes effect on the next full round.
If you are the Initiative winner, actor at the Top of the Round, then that means it takes effect right away.
If you are the Initiative loser, actor at the Bottom of the Round, then it means you have to wait your turn with your setting as it was, then you could change it. If you do, it goes into effect during the next full round. Same thing, it's just that the round number switches right then.
If you don't say anything, one round moves to the next, and the CP Setting remains set to whatever you had it at previously.

OMG that was awful. Thanks for not quitting the game.
hahaha

I hear ya, Jabes. I think it's all happening the way you would like it.

There is only one big deck in play here at all.

There is one central door to the cabin.
To the right of the door is some sort of wide opening storage bay (where Thorn was seen briefly) with a bunch of tools and clutter.
To the left of the door is another small opening with no door, something like an outdoor porch closet.

The lake water is to the north on the deck.
The low ground sloping towards the water is below the deck to the south.

Ivor and Bird have been fighting, a little bit of normal give and take on exact positioning but generally in the center of the large deck.

Now though, with Kray setting up overwatch range fire coming form the south and east, Ivor would optimally have his back to the water (back north, face south).
That gives him exit to the water if he has to use it, and also exposes Bird to maximum risk to Kray's arrow fire while at the same time avoiding the possibility of Ivor becoming cover to Bird against arrow fire.

ALSO, if Ivor backs up a few steps (moves north closer to the edge of the deck that overlooks the water), that puts Bird's back to the central cabin door. Also allows Ivor to keep the door in peripheral vision, looking over Bird's shoulder to the left.

Sounds like win-win-win-win:
1) Maintaining water escape option,
2) Exposing opponent to most danger to ally range attack,
3) Keeping eyes on the cabin door that is now opening, and
4) Keeping the door to the opponent's back (and not Ivor's back)

Veteran Gladiator Positioning!

{sarcasm}I'm glad you guys have been keeping it chill and not posting too many lengthy discussions on rules debate.{/sarcasm}

:smileyface:

Got it. Updated spreadsheet. Thanks.

Might make a difference. Phantom is still throwing out some danger, every point counts to get these guys down.

Just checking if Ivor (who was at that precise moment clambering up to the deck) heard this:
When he makes it up to the deck he definitely sees Thorn in the shed (prior to Thorn breaking through the back wall):
As the Phantom engages, Ivor is still by the door. Would he have glimpsed some of what went on inside?

Thorn was right at a thin rotten wall when that was going on. He heard it but not Ivor, who was still climbing up.

Ivor got to the deck, kicked over the cauldron, saw Thorn briefly in the storage shed, but then was full engaged with Phantom. In combat, most of his senses faded away and focused on the enemy.

Ivor, in the background, might have heard one crash from within the cabin (like foot stomps, bumps like furniture shifting and stuff crashing off of a shelf or something). That was about it.

Especially because then Phantom was joined by Bird who also attacked. Not much ability to hear/see the developments inside the cabin.

Makes sense. Ok, was just checking. Thanks!

I just realized that I rolled the wrong die for the handaxe damage!
I've added a reroll to the post.

Thanks, Jabes. Revised damage noted and recorded.

Also, on the last couple of entries involving Ivor here and here, I ended up having to edit a bit yesterday after writing initially, so hoping you got all of the info depending on when you read them.

Yeah I reread them carefully before posting my actions. Good thing, because at first I thought the guy had his back to me.

I have Advantage over a Stunned opponent an I roll a 1 and a 2! I honestly don't know how to narrate that miss LOL!

EDIT: I just read your narration. Good one!

Definitely.
:) So you know I'm not annoyed. Bringing the logic to bear now...

This lends an advantage to those acting at the top of the round. In the simplest terms, actors at the top of the round can adjust their CP and get immediate benefits that work for the situation as it is in that moment. Actors at the bottom of the round, however, have to be far more predictive, with decreased chances that whatever adjustments they make to CP will still matter/be useful when their turn finally comes.

Winning initiative should definitely have advantages, but only in the first round, starting the fight, first attacks and all. After that, being the top of the round actors is simply part of the back and forth round to round. If we have the CP rules set where everyone has to declare CP adjustments prior to the start of a round, it literally creates imbalance for actors who are further from the top of the round, progressively less favorable the closer they are to the bottom.

I can imagine a plethora of situations where actors toward the bottom may find themselves unable to take advantage of CP adjustments. Likewise, I can imagine many situations where those near the top of the round are highly likely to reap the benefits of their CP adjustments. This can be exemplified by the fact that the first actor of the round is literally guaranteed to reap the benefits of their immediately available CP adjustment.

In sum, the first actor in the round is guaranteed an effective CP adjustment, with CP adjustments becoming less viable from there as the round progresses toward the bottom. This is a clear advantage to the initiative winning group throughout combat.

This is a far bigger problem than being concerned about players making a CP adjustment on their turn, allowing them to exploit a weakness in a foe (attack bonus +) or up their survivability when they realize that they are now surrounded (defense bonus AC+). Also, I think allowing players to do it at the start of their turn will make the combat more enjoyable, more realistic as each individual player can adjust their tactics as predicated by the current situation, giving it a more real time feel.

Most importantly, because the player has to make the adjustment at the start of their turn, and can only do so once per turn, there can be zero exploiting of the CP mechanics. Like being able to have attack bonus on every turn while still having AC+ every other turn when the NPC's are attacking you-- if the players could adjust CP at any time during their turn, that would be possible and easy to do. However, allow CP adjustment once per turn, at the start of the turn, and problem solved.

The problems and imbalance outlined above can be completely avoided if we allow everyone to adjust their CP at the start of their turn, once per turn, which ensures that everyone, every round, will have the exact same mechanical advantages, no matter where they are in the initiative order. Also, this will make using CP a more in the moment tactical choice, like using a maneuver, which will up the fun level (e.g., knowing your foe is almost dead so you max Attack Bonus to finish him off, much like bringing an axe down with all your damn might, knowing that you better kill him because you're low on HP).

It doesn't get any more balanced or fun than that, especially since the NPC's and the PC's play by the same rules.

I hear you, Ez. I want to really study this when I have more time. I am not convinced now, but I'm sure that if anyone can convince me, it's you.

My main criticism is still that people at lower initiatives can "double dip" in essence. Example if they are set at CP Defense at first (beginning of round when other people are hitting first), they get the higher AC "backwards" (applying retroactively to people at higher initiatives who have already struck at them) then shift at the beginning of their own series in the sequence and thereby get a hit bonus IN THE SAME ROUND, potentially even to wield back for a higher percentage to hit at the guy who just hit at them under a reduced percentage. This doesn't matter if it's round 1 or round 17, same situation.

I'll think it over. I'm good with just winging it and tabling the issue for now. Again, I don't think anyone at all is trying to "game the system" with this rule. And definitely the NPCs/Monsters aren't because I have not used it one time with them.

Will revisit later because maybe you are right.

Also I'm willing to explore the idea of "even if there is an option of someone getting screwed here and there, everyone is at the same risk of getting screwed here and there, so it's fair." And the idea of favoring what is more fun, even if I think there are flaws - that's possible too.

Ox, I welcome our coming character building session.

Hahah yea. First job and we are dead, not too bad.

My goal was to save you but I think it's too late for that. If my buddy botches the grapple check I might get away.

Note to self:

Next Dark Thrones run through, let's stay the fuck away from the water ;)

Is that Disadvantage on Bird-man? And Bird-man's Rage that's ineffective? Based on the narration this is the case but I'm just making sure. ;-)
That's 6 damage before damage resistance, right?

Also, Ex-Bird is no longer Stunned, right? So Ivor's attacks are no longer at Advantage?

Correct. All negative adjustments are leveled against Bird. Definitely no problems apply to Ivor.

Yes. Damage is raw total value. I never adjust damage to any resistance or reduction. I assume players are doing that as necessary.

Bird is no longer Stunned.
No Advantage on attacks against him.

Ivor finally killed something! Huzzah!

True. Ivor killed the fuck out of that guy. Really made a mess of that deck along the way too.

Hey, Qiu killed something too!

Oh absolutely! But my comment was coming from the fact that Ivor failed when we fought at the stones, and then first Fingol and then the Phantom got away from him.

Good show, CB. Thanks for the fucking spectacular relentless ground-pounding shield-bashing body-dragging style of the uncanny Qiu Hua! He did everything he could to save a friend and turn the tides. Has any character ever gone down fighting with such fury?!

I'm drinking a double shot of whiskey this afternoon to his memory.

Here, here. Good show.

I'm sure I'm next to follow suit. Let's reroll bladesingers and take over Jeres.

That's Dark Thrones legal right, J?

Yeah, man! I'm gonna miss his brand of mayhem!

Ox, if you keep this crap up, you won't get to roll up a new PC!

I meant Qiu killed a Qiu, not that goblin thing.

That is the second nat20 that saved my life.

What a flurry of Bat-shit craziness.

RIP, Qiu. I wish Thorn could have fought alongside you at least once!

So how does this work are you going to re roll?

Assuming he survives, Kray will definitely pour a drink into the ground for Qiu, who pulled the pain off of Kray early in the shit when Kray was almost insta-fragged in TR1. Could legitimately be Kray face down in the muck otherwise.

Thanks CB.

I will roll up something new with J and he will fit in an intro somewhere.

It's going to be badass, too. I got a preview of the idea from CB.
Here's a hint: it's not going to be an dragonborn sorcerer.

You know, it was a tough call but Bladesingers BARELY missed the cut on Archetype selection in the Dark Thrones system.

They will be, however, heavily featured in the latest project that I'm hoping to launch in the Fall Line Up. It's going to be called "Fashionable Elfy Thrones". Really stylish. Cool hairstyles. Brooding but beautiful dirges and travel songs. Lots of new options on rapiers, fancy scabbards, high boots, velvet cloaks, and cat costumes.

Working subtitle right now is "Fashionable Elfy Thrones: Flaunt the PIZZAZZ!"

I think you guys are going to love it.

Oh man... you'd have to invent game mechanics for fashion. New Skills like Discerning Eye, Fashion Design, Creative Decorating, Arrogance...

Damn, Ez! Leaving Talius was cold as fuck, but the roleplay is so on point! Just...damn!

I hated doing it. I really did. Went over the odds and incoming dice against Talius... Kray was just next on the menu. If Kray wasn't so fragged up already at 7 HP I'd stay, but Kray tempted the Fates in the opening rounds and is used up.

Ha, lolz just leaving the chum for the waters.

No worries, Talius should of been a bit more cold. He didn't want to see his friends die again... All the while Talius is at 8 hp double grappled, disadvantage on all attacks, advantage against me, so naturally,i was thinking of new characters all day today.

For J I offer you this picture, and also in loving memory of Qiu;