Admin, OOC, and Launch Discussion

Judging by narration from the early rounds (see below) Ivor has been fighting just outside the shed, and so within reach of that middle door. Depending on how Ivir and his opponents have circled each other in vombat it's entirely possible that as the door begins to open he might not notice it. But tganks to Kray's wsrning he'll definitely hustle to put the Bird in between him and the door.

Even though it's been described well enough I'm still not entirely sure where Kray is positioned relative to Ivor and Qiu. When I say Ivor puts Bird between him and the door I'm imagining he puts the water behind him as a possible escape route if things get really bad, but also don't want to block Kray's line of sight.

Combat Proficiency

So, there's a lot written below, but the idea I'm going for is to be thorough. And no, I don't think adjusting Combat Proficiency should cost a Bonus Action or Reaction. Adjusting combat efforts/focus seems more instinctive/reflexive than needing an action of any sort, not to mention I think losing Bonus Actions & Reactions will make combat less interesting (removing some of the coolness of existing Bonus Actions and Reactions from combat). That being said...

First off, we have a huge advantage as far as keeping a great house rule simple. We're playing initiative in groups, so there is a top half and a bottom half. That being said, I think this makes it easy to allow players to declare their Combat Proficiency (hereafter simply noted as 'CP') adjustment at the start of their turn only, before any move or action/bonus action. The thing is, when I brought up the idea of a flexible CP to J, we both immediately concluded that the idea was just good, giving players the option to have their own fighting style or adjust tactics based on the situation. We didn't put much more thought into it. J put it down and we moved on (admittedly, the vast majority of my focus was on Shield rules and Rituals, and no doubt that J was ultra busy, which is ultra clear in the depth of resources and references available to us about the setting, etc). CP just made sense, should be in the core D&D 'rules' anyway, so I don't think J and I thought it needed any more love. Like a good shark, it seemed like it was born and ready to swim away.

Xorthan brought it up (like a top notch playtester), and that's good. It should be clarified. And it didn't take much thought at all, once prompted by J's response to X's inquiry, to come to the easy conclusion that CP can be exploited, depending. The good news is that I don't think we need to get to complicated with it. I believe we can keep the the idea of adjusting CP to something that is done on a player's turn, with a simple catch.

I get what J's going at here, regarding characters adjusting their CP potentially creating unevenness in combat (or NPC's adjusting CP, for that matter, depending on how J uses it). However, because of the group initiative, this isn't a factor, although it might seem like it perceptually.

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CP at the Start of Combat

Before I forget, I want to say this: J's point about opening combat with a CP set to Defensive AC+ being problematic is very valid. I think there are two ways to go on that.

(1) You can't set an AC+ bonus to your CP until your first turn in combat. Makes sense, giving value to initiative (which should have value!). Initiative winners are more ready for combat, so should have an advantage, whether it's bonuses to attack or defend.

(2) You need to have a weapon in hand to set your CP to AC+, demonstrating battle readiness, vigilance, combat mode... whatever. This, however, takes away from characters like Qiu, or any unarmed combat situation, literally creating a rule mechanic wherein you need a weapon in hand to officially go AC+. A shield might do as well, which would make sense.

Of those two above, I think #2 is realistic enough. But again, it requires something in hand, which takes away from the unarmed schools of combat. Also, I think it's even more realistic that the group that wins initiative is getting the drop on the other group, and should have an advantage in that regard. So, my recommendation and vote is for #1. I think your CP should, by default, be set to Attack bonus per traditional D&D rules until the player makes an adjustment on their first turn whenever that is.

Remember, the point of #1 and #2 above is to avoid the simple exploit of PC's defaulting to AC+ as a means of always ensuring that their AC is higher at the start of any combat.

In conclusion on this component of CP, I'm fine with either, but prefer #1, which will entirely avoid the potential for any exploit as J noted previously.

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When CP Can Be Adjusted

Now, as far as whether or not we should require PC's to set their CP at the start of a round or a turn:

Besides the concern for exploitable mechanics, what popped out right away for he purposes of PbP gaming is this: if we create a rule where PC's must set their CP at the start of each round, we are literally going to add another step in between rounds. Now, I'm enjoying this combat thoroughly, but imagine if between each round J had to wait for each of us to potentially adjust our CP's. Yes, we could claim it in advance, during our turn at the bottom or top of a round, but mechanically J would be inclined to wait, allowing for us to make a tactical decision between rounds (as would make sense).

Finding out at the very end of a round that your character is now surrounded by 3 NPC's could definitely affect your tactical decision making. Then we could eventually run into "well... J that's not really a hit because I was going to adjust my CP, but just didn't do so in time." I say screw that shit show of potential complications. Let's keep it simple, and have players take their turn on their actual turn, rather than introducing another phase (CP declaration) between combat rounds. Usually simple isn't good enough for me, and I just want realistic. In this case, they're both the same; we don't have to sacrifice realistic game mechanics at the RPG altar of simplicity.

I don't see any mechanical reason to require the CP to be declared at the start of a round, although I can understand how one could perceive that there should be a need to do so. If we declare our CP's at the start of our turns, that will suffice mechanically and have the same effect as declaring it at the start of a round, especially because we're doing group initiative. Even though, if we we're doing individual initiatives, I still think declaring it at the start of a turn would be fine, for one simple reason: each PC/NPC only gets one turn a round, and once they declare their CP, they are stuck at the setting for an entire round, until their next turn comes.

The thing is, as much as the rules try to mimic simultaneous combat (which is the point J is going at), the simple fact is that combat is turn-based, and our PC's actions are affected by what's going on. As players, we choose our character's actions and movements based on what happened before their turn.

In our current battle, I had Kray switch to using a ranged weapon once he recognized there wasn't a melee threat nearby. Qiu dragged Goat away from Kray because Kray was getting his ass handed to him at the top of round 1. Talius moved in between Kray and Bull for the same reason. All were choices made based on the linear results of turn-based combat. In the same fashion, it makes sense for PC's to adjust their CP on their turn, making a tactical choice due to the progression and results of turns in combat. I think this, along with ideas mentioned above, is a key reason to simply allow the player to declare their CP at the start of their own turn.

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An Example of CP in Action
---allowing for it to be set at the start of a PC turn, before any movement, action, or bonus action
---and why it shouldn't be allowed on just ANY part of the player's turn (most notably after all movements and actions are taken, wherein a nasty exploit could be taken advantage of by semi-savvy players

The below will show how rounds and turns will play out, with the NPC's at the top of the round, PC's at the bottom (exactly like the current combat in our game). Let's assume that the PC starts the combat with Attack Bonus for CP (as that seems a good default as I mentioned above). Notice that even if the player changes their CP every round, it's still only once a round, and that character is stuck with that CP until the start of their next turn. J, I think this creates the desired effect you're looking for: when the NPC's take their turn, whatever the player set their character's CP at is going to be for a whole round, free for any NPC to attack (and adjust to) as they see fit. I think this also mirrors combat in the sense that if a combatant seemed to be on the defensive, the attacker might adjust and further focus his efforts on offense. Mechanically, the point is that the player can't get an Attack Bonus and then switch to Defense Bonus before the NPC's next turn. Whatever style the PC uses, Attack or Defense, that's it for the entire round, meaning their CP choice will effect their Attack Bonus and AC Bonus for the entire round. Every NPC in the fight will get a chance at the PC, whatever they chose.


Format
#= Round Number
N=NPC turn
P=PC turn (a=CP set to max Attack Bonus at the start of PC turn, d=CP set to max Defense Bonus at the start of PC turn)

1
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

2
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

3
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

4
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

5
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

6
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

7
N
Pd (after declaring max AC+ Defense Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

8
N
Pa (after declaring max Attack Bonus at the start of their turn, after all NPC's have taken their turn)

...and so on.

Again, the PC will always have to go an entire round with their CP choice (and can't just start combat with extra Defense Bonuses as a default). They'll never be able to exploit an Attack Bonus and switch to Defense (or vice versa) because they must declare their CP at the start of their turn, and I think that's the key: at the start of their turn.

Otherwise, allowing CP to be set anyime during a turn is the real concern, allowing a situation where PC's will have an Attack Bonus every round while the NPC's deal with that PC's Defense Bonus every other round.

Using the start of turn CP adjustment method outlined above will also work out just like any tactical choice in combat (positioning, maneuver use, Second Wind, weapon choice, active Feat use like Shield Bash, etc) wherein adjusting CP will naturally flow with the course of combat, as needed depending on the situation in conjunction with the player's personal combat style and the results of progressive turn-based combat.

Given the above (if you read it all, hats off and thanks for taking the time), I think we avoid introducing another phase between combat rounds, all while keeping things realistic and in-line with the existing turn-based combat system.

Yo, Ez. At least you and I both are keeping it simple and interesting in our writing.
(If there were a SARCASM Text option, I would have coated that last sentence in it).

Uuughh. This next is going to be so terrible to write, and surely even worse to read.
(Ez has known me the longest and he knows I try to stay in the camp of "Come on, y'all. I'm tired of talking that rules ish - let's just play", but also knows that I can't help but wade into Rules Lawyering despite my best efforts to avoid)

Hey, I think we are pretty close to an agreement here, but I think (not sure) that I'm proposing something a little different.

Agreement on Possibility of Exploit: I do think that if we don't address this, there could be an exploit. At maximum, it could be abused to the point of getting either: 1) an Attack boost every round AND an AC boost every other round, or 2) an AC boost every round AND an Attack boost every other round. It should go without saying that I'm not concerned with people TRYING to exploit. I don't necessarily know if there has even been any unintended advantages or not. I'm just bringing it up because it could lead to mistakes I think and some possibility of INADVERTENT unfair advantages.

Agreement that the Combat Proficiency (CP) Setting is NOT any sort of Action Itself: It's important to me NOT to turn this into some sort of Action (Bonus, Reaction, etc.). To me it is something OUTSIDE OF ACTIONS. It is something that informs actions both coming from you and going towards you, but it is not an Action itself.

Belief that CP SETTING MUST BE LINKED TO ENTIRE ROUNDS: Will try to cut to the chase and explain that I think that each person's CP Setting, either CP Offense or CP Defense, must be set before entire rounds. I think that announcing before a player's action series at the beginning CAN work just the same, BUT because of the nature of rounds and initiative that there COULD be a subtle difference.

It mostly matters if a player is either at the TOP of the Round (wins Initiative) or at the BOTTOM of the Round (loses Initiative). But even if we were doing normal table top Initiative, in which everyone could be distributed in any sequence, the same situation would apply: to be fair, everyone's setting should be set for the whole round.

If a player is at the TOP, wins Initiative, the idea of "pick your CP Setting to either CP Offense or CP Defense at the beginning of your Turn" works just fine. He gets his Actions with the setting applied accordingly, and then in order waits for the opponent (BOTTOM Actor) to respond under the same circumstances.

If the player is at the BOTTOM, loses Initiative, the idea of "pick your CP Setting to either CP Offense or CP Defense at the beginning of your Turn" doesn't NECESSARILY work out just fine. If he changes it, say from CP Defense to CP Offense, then the opponent who previously acted at the Top of the round just swung at the wrong AC. There is a chance that a Miss would have been a hit.

Rebuttal I think would be that the adjustment would last from BR1 through TR2. The AC will carry over to next round, and that will apply to the opponent's strikes. That is not convincing to me, because again the guy who won initiative already made a hit. He HAS to know what the setting is for his opponents AC ahead of time, so everything has to stay static.

Plus, even if it were to work (I don't think it does), it invites confusion when things are spread between rounds (Was that CP Setting Change applying from TR1 through BR1? Or was it BR1 through TR2?)

To me, the simplicity happens when both sides (or even all people if everyone was distributed as a mix of good guys and bad guys) have to enter an entire round with their CP Settings set to either Offense or Defense.

It does have a slightly different feel to it, depending on win/lose Initiative or Bottom/Top of Round. I get that. But really it is the very same spot that the change takes effect. It's that moment right between rounds. For people who are on the Bottom, that point seems like a "predictive" setting. For people on the Top, that may seem like a more "assertive" or "controlling" setting. Maybe so, but it's really the same moment.

Why it won't delay the game: Definitely appreciate all concerns to not having any further delay. In this case though, I think it just keeps flowing; as DM, I don't intend to wait. I do think Player's should announce their settings, their setting changes especially, but in the end it is "Big Boy Rules." Everyone just has to police themselves. As DM, I really don't pay that close of attention to what is a hit or what is a miss when it comes to Players. I just post up the result of the dice roll. It is up to the Player's to record what is a hit and what is not. So it everyone needs to be clear on this rule for sure.

Summary: The default setting should be CP Offense. That's like normal rules.
And then if you want a setting change, it should be announced. And then it takes effect on the next full round.
If you are the Initiative winner, actor at the Top of the Round, then that means it takes effect right away.
If you are the Initiative loser, actor at the Bottom of the Round, then it means you have to wait your turn with your setting as it was, then you could change it. If you do, it goes into effect during the next full round. Same thing, it's just that the round number switches right then.
If you don't say anything, one round moves to the next, and the CP Setting remains set to whatever you had it at previously.

OMG that was awful. Thanks for not quitting the game.
hahaha

I hear ya, Jabes. I think it's all happening the way you would like it.

There is only one big deck in play here at all.

There is one central door to the cabin.
To the right of the door is some sort of wide opening storage bay (where Thorn was seen briefly) with a bunch of tools and clutter.
To the left of the door is another small opening with no door, something like an outdoor porch closet.

The lake water is to the north on the deck.
The low ground sloping towards the water is below the deck to the south.

Ivor and Bird have been fighting, a little bit of normal give and take on exact positioning but generally in the center of the large deck.

Now though, with Kray setting up overwatch range fire coming form the south and east, Ivor would optimally have his back to the water (back north, face south).
That gives him exit to the water if he has to use it, and also exposes Bird to maximum risk to Kray's arrow fire while at the same time avoiding the possibility of Ivor becoming cover to Bird against arrow fire.

ALSO, if Ivor backs up a few steps (moves north closer to the edge of the deck that overlooks the water), that puts Bird's back to the central cabin door. Also allows Ivor to keep the door in peripheral vision, looking over Bird's shoulder to the left.

Sounds like win-win-win-win:
1) Maintaining water escape option,
2) Exposing opponent to most danger to ally range attack,
3) Keeping eyes on the cabin door that is now opening, and
4) Keeping the door to the opponent's back (and not Ivor's back)

Veteran Gladiator Positioning!

{sarcasm}I'm glad you guys have been keeping it chill and not posting too many lengthy discussions on rules debate.{/sarcasm}

:smileyface:

Got it. Updated spreadsheet. Thanks.

Might make a difference. Phantom is still throwing out some danger, every point counts to get these guys down.

Just checking if Ivor (who was at that precise moment clambering up to the deck) heard this:
When he makes it up to the deck he definitely sees Thorn in the shed (prior to Thorn breaking through the back wall):
As the Phantom engages, Ivor is still by the door. Would he have glimpsed some of what went on inside?

Thorn was right at a thin rotten wall when that was going on. He heard it but not Ivor, who was still climbing up.

Ivor got to the deck, kicked over the cauldron, saw Thorn briefly in the storage shed, but then was full engaged with Phantom. In combat, most of his senses faded away and focused on the enemy.

Ivor, in the background, might have heard one crash from within the cabin (like foot stomps, bumps like furniture shifting and stuff crashing off of a shelf or something). That was about it.

Especially because then Phantom was joined by Bird who also attacked. Not much ability to hear/see the developments inside the cabin.

Makes sense. Ok, was just checking. Thanks!

I just realized that I rolled the wrong die for the handaxe damage!
I've added a reroll to the post.

Thanks, Jabes. Revised damage noted and recorded.

Also, on the last couple of entries involving Ivor here and here, I ended up having to edit a bit yesterday after writing initially, so hoping you got all of the info depending on when you read them.

Yeah I reread them carefully before posting my actions. Good thing, because at first I thought the guy had his back to me.

I have Advantage over a Stunned opponent an I roll a 1 and a 2! I honestly don't know how to narrate that miss LOL!

EDIT: I just read your narration. Good one!

Definitely.
:) So you know I'm not annoyed. Bringing the logic to bear now...

This lends an advantage to those acting at the top of the round. In the simplest terms, actors at the top of the round can adjust their CP and get immediate benefits that work for the situation as it is in that moment. Actors at the bottom of the round, however, have to be far more predictive, with decreased chances that whatever adjustments they make to CP will still matter/be useful when their turn finally comes.

Winning initiative should definitely have advantages, but only in the first round, starting the fight, first attacks and all. After that, being the top of the round actors is simply part of the back and forth round to round. If we have the CP rules set where everyone has to declare CP adjustments prior to the start of a round, it literally creates imbalance for actors who are further from the top of the round, progressively less favorable the closer they are to the bottom.

I can imagine a plethora of situations where actors toward the bottom may find themselves unable to take advantage of CP adjustments. Likewise, I can imagine many situations where those near the top of the round are highly likely to reap the benefits of their CP adjustments. This can be exemplified by the fact that the first actor of the round is literally guaranteed to reap the benefits of their immediately available CP adjustment.

In sum, the first actor in the round is guaranteed an effective CP adjustment, with CP adjustments becoming less viable from there as the round progresses toward the bottom. This is a clear advantage to the initiative winning group throughout combat.

This is a far bigger problem than being concerned about players making a CP adjustment on their turn, allowing them to exploit a weakness in a foe (attack bonus +) or up their survivability when they realize that they are now surrounded (defense bonus AC+). Also, I think allowing players to do it at the start of their turn will make the combat more enjoyable, more realistic as each individual player can adjust their tactics as predicated by the current situation, giving it a more real time feel.

Most importantly, because the player has to make the adjustment at the start of their turn, and can only do so once per turn, there can be zero exploiting of the CP mechanics. Like being able to have attack bonus on every turn while still having AC+ every other turn when the NPC's are attacking you-- if the players could adjust CP at any time during their turn, that would be possible and easy to do. However, allow CP adjustment once per turn, at the start of the turn, and problem solved.

The problems and imbalance outlined above can be completely avoided if we allow everyone to adjust their CP at the start of their turn, once per turn, which ensures that everyone, every round, will have the exact same mechanical advantages, no matter where they are in the initiative order. Also, this will make using CP a more in the moment tactical choice, like using a maneuver, which will up the fun level (e.g., knowing your foe is almost dead so you max Attack Bonus to finish him off, much like bringing an axe down with all your damn might, knowing that you better kill him because you're low on HP).

It doesn't get any more balanced or fun than that, especially since the NPC's and the PC's play by the same rules.

I hear you, Ez. I want to really study this when I have more time. I am not convinced now, but I'm sure that if anyone can convince me, it's you.

My main criticism is still that people at lower initiatives can "double dip" in essence. Example if they are set at CP Defense at first (beginning of round when other people are hitting first), they get the higher AC "backwards" (applying retroactively to people at higher initiatives who have already struck at them) then shift at the beginning of their own series in the sequence and thereby get a hit bonus IN THE SAME ROUND, potentially even to wield back for a higher percentage to hit at the guy who just hit at them under a reduced percentage. This doesn't matter if it's round 1 or round 17, same situation.

I'll think it over. I'm good with just winging it and tabling the issue for now. Again, I don't think anyone at all is trying to "game the system" with this rule. And definitely the NPCs/Monsters aren't because I have not used it one time with them.

Will revisit later because maybe you are right.

Also I'm willing to explore the idea of "even if there is an option of someone getting screwed here and there, everyone is at the same risk of getting screwed here and there, so it's fair." And the idea of favoring what is more fun, even if I think there are flaws - that's possible too.

Ox, I welcome our coming character building session.

Hahah yea. First job and we are dead, not too bad.

My goal was to save you but I think it's too late for that. If my buddy botches the grapple check I might get away.

Note to self:

Next Dark Thrones run through, let's stay the fuck away from the water ;)

Is that Disadvantage on Bird-man? And Bird-man's Rage that's ineffective? Based on the narration this is the case but I'm just making sure. ;-)
That's 6 damage before damage resistance, right?

Also, Ex-Bird is no longer Stunned, right? So Ivor's attacks are no longer at Advantage?

Correct. All negative adjustments are leveled against Bird. Definitely no problems apply to Ivor.

Yes. Damage is raw total value. I never adjust damage to any resistance or reduction. I assume players are doing that as necessary.