Admin, OOC, and Launch Discussion

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May 16, 2017 5:18 pm
Oxbox says:
Such a good scene I need to watch that movie again.

I brought my wife to see that movie on Valentine's Day when we were dating, bahahaha. She must've really liked me because she still married me.
It's definitely more of a movie for a guys, but I think there's enough to enjoy in the movie for it to be generally liked as a film. And usually a Scorcese movie is generally just a good movie.
May 16, 2017 5:32 pm
DMJ says:
OOC:
Can definitely see Rison being a heavy influence on Kray- maybe both a good influence and a bad one. Calculating much of the time, but quick to anger, wrathful and confrontational frequently. Probably too frequently is the most common opinion within the house. Most people hate Rison, and many fear him. Kray could likely be one of the few people, inside the family or out, who have seen the benefits of learning from him, even though the risk has been high and the interchanges unpleasant at times.
Kray is, without a doubt, capable of a tremendous amount of wrath (an instruction tool for those that oppose him and deserve his ire). He's also undoubtedly learned the appreciation for subtlety and the value of political machinations, swimming in House Mercon politics his whole life (whether he wanted to or not). I imagine he finds politics a tedious tool at best, but a necessary one at times due to the immense power one can derive from it, as demonstrated on a repeated basis by Rison.
May 18, 2017 2:23 pm
Quote:
Ivor is on the outer cabin deck fighting Bird. That deck is about 10' - 16' high (because of slanting ground) and connected to the cabin. The deck overlooks both fight locales below in a way because one corner is near the Kray/Bull fight scene near the dry side and then it also is built partially over the water so the other corner is out over the lake. The deck does not have any real stairs going up to it. To reach it is more like a rugged climb on slippery roots and then the support beams and boards of the deck itself.
Obviously not happening before Ivor is rid of Bird, and even then depending on how things shake out Ivor may decide to do something else but theoretically would it be possible for Ivor to take a running jump from the balcony and come down on top of Bear or Goat or even an alligator? I expect that'll require a successful Athletics or Acrobatics roll or something. With that kind of momentum would the trident be doing any sort of extra damage? If not then it's cool, just thought I'd ask. At any rate it seems like a pretty cool scene. Right now Ivor can't seem to catch a break against anything he's fought against. :-(

DMJ

May 18, 2017 4:22 pm
Jabes.plays.RPG says:
... theoretically would it be possible for Ivor to take a running jump from the balcony and come down on top of Bear or Goat or even an alligator? I expect that'll require a successful Athletics or Acrobatics roll or something. With that kind of momentum would the trident be doing any sort of extra damage?
I love that idea. Would be an outstanding addition to this raging action scene. I guess the devil is in the details - mainly on the distance of the position that is trying to be reached by the jump. Let's make the call now that the upper deck extends out over the water for 25' at the very longest extending corner. At that point it is 17' high above the water.
So then it is a physics word problem right? We could study up on the Running Long Jump Rules, figure out that with Ivor's STR. Then boost it up a little bit to allow for the extra distance that would be gained during the 17' drop, plus toss in a couple of extra feet for arbitrary and shameless DM discretionary theatrical allowance. We could arrive at a total distance that could be reached.
Then it would be a question of: where is Qiu/Goat/Bear/Alligators? I am keeping track of that now, even though it is not being published on the boards, and I will reveal when/if it becomes a target that is trying to be reached, if we make the judgement that they could realistically be seen somehow from the deck.
Let's see what happens. It sounds like timing and upcoming developments will be everything.

As far as the extra damage on Trident if Ivor crashes in airborne directly on somebody, I think that is possible. Need to study some rules, see if we can come up with a correlation to something similar. Maybe something similar to a charge with a Lance? Not sure, but will look. If there is nothing published, might end up being some sort of mini-boost by DM fiat.
May 20, 2017 1:50 am
Quote:
Haha. Just when we seem to gain ground on this debate, another dilemma arises...
The idea of attack is a reference in term, but may not be related in exact success/failure. The rules say "a special kind of attack"...
I think that for the term, Grapple is an attack in the sense that Conditions relate to it (Disadvantage on attacks..., ...attacks against are made at Advantage, ....cannot attack, etc.)
Haha here's another one: when they fail on a Grapple attempt against Ivor, can he Riposte?

"Riposte Maneuver: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, use your reaction to make a melee attack against that creature...."

EDIT: I've been giving this lots of thought and at first I was leaning towards NO, reasoning that when an attacker loses the contested roll on a Grapple attempt he still does connect but just fails to latch on. But if you watch a wrestling or MMA match you know it's quite possible to catch nothing but air and canvas when you try to shoot for a takedown. And anyways, when you fail to hit AC on a regular melee attack that doesn't necessarily mean a failure to connect - you could have just been parried or stopped by armor.

Mechanics aside, I'm trying to picture it in my head: attacker makes a grab, and defender dances out of the way, or gets grabbed but is too strong and jerks free before the attacker can really take control. In either case I can see a wily defender easily taking a cheap shot at the attcker.

So is that a YES? :-D
Last edited May 20, 2017 3:42 am

DMJ

May 20, 2017 11:12 am
Jabes.plays.RPG says:

Haha here's another one: when they fail on a Grapple attempt against Ivor, can he Riposte?

....
Mechanics aside, I'm trying to picture it in my head: attacker makes a grab, and defender dances out of the way, or gets grabbed but is too strong and jerks free before the attacker can really take control. In either case I can see a wily defender easily taking a cheap shot at the attcker.

...
Right on, Jabes. Wrestlemania controversy continues!
I read this yesterday, thought it over, realize there could be a debate either way, but I was in the "YES" Camp pretty quickly.

I think it applies, both to continue in treating wrestling as an attack by way of allowing follow-on effects for attacks to apply, and like you said by plain realism. If a guy is trained up to take advantage of moments when his opponents commit too heavily on an shots against him (in essence a Battle Master who has Riposte Maneuver), then I can see how it would definitely apply to a wrestle attack. I would have to think it would be ESPECIALLY true (on realism) if the Riposte Battlemaster was using a weapon and the opponent was moving in close on a grapple attempt but fails. Talk about exposing yourself to a high risk for a painful rebuttal. I'm thinking about shooting in low to grab a leg for a takedown on a knife wielding Bill the Butcher, ...BUT MISSING. Bill's prob going to make me pay for that a little extra with a knife shot to the rib cage that he practices for just these occasions.

So all clear for the Riposte strikeback as Reactions on botched wrestle moves.
I would have to look back to be sure, but I think Ivor could actually be staged up for one of those right now if he chooses (I think it would apply backwards into TR6, but would also flow right into your BR6 series if you use it).

DMJ

May 20, 2017 11:49 am
Open Debate for Clarity on Versatility of Proficiency House Rule

X and I, behind the Note function admittedly, were discussing the finer details of how the mechanics of the switch on Proficiency might work. I'm talking about the House Rule that allows for use of Proficiency Bonus to be either used "Offensively" (as a Bonus to Attack efforts, this is the default and the traditional way of the rules as written) OR "Defensively" (as a Bonus positive adjustment to gain a higher AC, this is in essence the adjusted House Rule allowance option).

But how does it work? When does it take effect? When can you shift it? Good questions. I have been thinking of it, want to post what I think is the correct ruling, but also open it up to the crowd for debate if necessary, and for clarity. Especially want to hear from Ez, because 1) he is the author of this rule really, and 2) I think he and I may be at opposite ends of interpretation at the moment.

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): I think the Offense or Defense Proficiency choice must be "set" during 1 round with a decision, but does not take effect until the following round, and that the setting either way must be "locked" within the confines of each complete round. I disagree that the Proficiency choice can be used in a manner similar to Movement, to be distributed anywhere in the sequence of a Bottom or Top segment of a round, and takes application at any time that the player chooses (before attack, after attack, etc.) within his part of the "Half Round" fragment.

The reason why is that the "setting" offense or defense spans across both "fragments" or "halves" of the round, both the Top and the Bottom, and effects both the PC and the opponent. I feel like that means it has to be static fixed to the whole round.

Here is a copy of what I wrote to X as an initial shot at explaining with example...
DMJ says:


Yes, Proficiency adjustment from Offense to Defense has to be locked with entire full rounds, announced first before all actions in that round (as in you could wait to see results of this BR14 Action set and then say it.). The reason I think is because opponent has already tried to hit at you with stats as they are (were for him).
EDIT: I'll hear arguments the other way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it works if you use it within the same working round (like Movement, and I think this is what Ez is talking about above). Think of this scenario: What if someone was cautious as they investigated a scary place, set their Proficiency adjustment on Defense, getting a +2 AC but accepting a little less chance to hit someone. Then a bad guy jumps out of the darkness, no Surprise, but bad guy wins initiative. He Attacks good guy with the adjusted AC. In the luck of it, Bad Guy misses by only 1 point. Round shifts to good guy. Good guy says "I use my Proficiency switch this round from Defense to Offense, like my Movement". All the sudden Good Guy gets an additional +2 to hit BUT his AC just went down all in the same instant? Now retroactively Bad Guy gets robbed of a would-have-been hit? Not fair. It just doesn't work unless it is locked to full rounds I don't think (although the announcement sort of comes during the previous round I guess). I think if not it could even, taken to extreme, be abused to a point of switching it back and forth every single round and thereby getting the chance of denying an opponent an extra few hits and always having the attack bonus (moving it either at the beginning of your series or the end, depending). Maybe I'm missing something though, so keep it coming if there is a better way of looking at it.
Another example could go the other way. Picture again, Player vs. Opponent. This time Player wins Initiative. It's Round 1. Player is Level 1, so has a +2 Proficiency.

Player is at the default setting of Offense, the Proficiency will be used as a +2 to hit Opponent. Player has control of Top of Round 1. He takes the shot, needs a 14, rolls a 15. That's a hit.

Still within TR1, Player decides to adjust Proficiency setting to Defense. That means a -2 to AC. But when? Different answers have different effects.

Interpretation 1: Like Movement, the Proficiency setting shift can be used any time and applies during the part of the round controlled by the Player. In the example, Player's AC shifts up 2 slots right then and there during TR1. Let's say it moves from 15 to 17.
So the Round Moves from Top to Bottom. In BR1, Opponent tries to hit. He rolls a 16. That's a miss.
Result: Player scored a hit that was dependent on the Offensive Proficiency adjustment, BUT Opponent scored a Miss that was dependent on the Defensive Proficiency adjustment, and it all happened in the same round. I think that is "double dipping", "having cake and eating it too" can't think of other cheesy metaphors...but just not what we were intending with this rule adjustment.

Interpretation 2: The decision to shift can occur in TR1 (or even any time before Round 2), but the shift to/from Offense to/from Defense does not take effect until the following round. In the same situation above, Player rolls attack against opponent with Offense setting, so Proficiency applies to Attack. He needs 14, rolls 15. That's a hit. Fair.
Then Player says "I want to switch to a more Defensive stance as I fight. Converting Proficiency to Defense." Fair enough, but Opponent needs to get a chance to face Player in the same manner that Player came at him, which was with more aggression and a little less concern with avoiding hits. Same as above, Opponent rolls a 16. Player's AC is still a 15. That is a hit for Opponent against Player. And it should be. Starting in Round 2 though, Player will be not quite as good at scoring a hit, but he will be harder to hit as a target. When BR2 rolls back around, if Opponent rolls a 16, that will be a miss.

So there it is. Long-winded, but hoping to be as clear as possible to make the case.
Open for rebuttals.
May 20, 2017 12:24 pm
DMJ says:
...found out that a couple of convos... LOOKED like Note covered from my DM login, but then parts of them were fully exposed and out in the open from a Player viewpoint.
I had a similar problem in another game. I brought the bug to Keleth's attention here. I'm sure another specimen will help him figure the problem out.
Last edited May 20, 2017 12:35 pm
May 20, 2017 12:27 pm
Okay, Jabes, that was supposed to be in a note also...
May 20, 2017 12:30 pm
Can you see my note back to him, also?

I read your link; maybe the trick for now is just to keep Notes as free as possible from other commands like OOC and Quotes?
May 20, 2017 12:34 pm
Your reply to J is hidden from me. Yeah that seems to be it: no additional tags inside Notes.

DMJ

May 20, 2017 12:37 pm
Haha. I think I'm going to discontinue all notes. All players gain Clairvoyant Condition, effective immediately. :)

Was trying to use the Note option veil to create some realism of confusion and "the fog of war" but to be honest I'm getting a little tired of the typing and the command words. Plus I sort of want us to hang out more openly and see the story from a gaming perspective with full vision. There has been some pretty cool ish going on in these side scenes, so maybe a shame that they are not public knowledge just for the sake of entertainment.

Everybody just be responsible with making decisions from only their player's vantage point and resist temptation to meld choices towards optimal conjunction with other things going on that you know as a Player but your character doesn't. I know from experience that that can be hard sometimes, but you guys are good players and no one is going to hold it against anyone for NOT acting on their character's behalf if the other character wouldn't have known the information.

EDIT: to be clear, if people want to send Notes still, that's fine. I'm just going to stop using them as a method to partition off different parts of vision and separated story. For this scene at least. I know that has it's drawbacks too, and maybe there will be future reasons for partitioning, but we'll cross that bridge later. So ... Notes not outlawed, just adjusted in my reasons for use.
May 20, 2017 12:46 pm
Oh god, does this mean I can go and edit out all the [note] stuff in my posts so everyone can see the weird-ass shit Thorn's been up to?!! :D

DMJ

May 20, 2017 12:48 pm
Haha. Yo X, hold off on that. Leave that for a campfire story or an After Action Review (AAR).

DMJ

May 20, 2017 12:52 pm
And too, I would personally leave out that part about Thorn winding up naked and covered in lube oil and all those things he did really quick with those farm animals. Bro, I recommend not telling the other guys about that - EVER. lLike I said before in other Notes, I understand why you did it, but you've got to admit it was pretty weird.

This will be my last use of Note function, ok? I want to be responsible and not let that part slip out.
May 20, 2017 12:54 pm
I guess you could say he was feeling... Thorny.
http://gossipextra.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/csi_miami_cancelled1.jpg
May 20, 2017 2:00 pm
It's a tiny thing and might not matter, but then again it might: When Ivor hit the Phantom with a crit back in the 2nd round I rolled the extra damage die with no modifiers as per standard 5E rules, forgetting the house rule on Increased Severity of Critical Hits.

In short, Phantom should have taken an extra 4 hp damage.
May 20, 2017 2:22 pm
TBH DMJ, that wall of text explaining your position on the proficiency bonus was pretty hard to parse, and I am not sure what your position actually is now. To be fair tho, I just woke up and haven't had coffee yet...

It seems simole enough to me that it is a free action that may be made at any time during your turn, but only once per round. The only "exploit" then would to always have it set to defense before a fight and then adjust to attack just before you make your first attack on your turn. It basically just means that you always have a higher AC if you lose inititive.

If you really are worried that it is an exploit, then you could make it a bonus action and lossibly a reaction to adjust.
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