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Jun 1, 2016 11:39 pm
Gamers' Plane is an every-growing organism, from new players to new games to new systems to new features. Right now, all the work is handled by me, and supported by you guys (thanks, as always, for every donation, every purchase through a referral link, etc). Some people have asked how they can help the site be ever more, so I thought I'd put together some ways I think I could use help. If there's something here you think might be helpful, feel free to post it here, PM me, or email me, and lets talk about it.

The stuff posted here is meant to be a role in GP; I'd ask if you're considering signing on, please take into mind the time the position would take. I'll never ask someone to give me more than they can give, but if you'd like to help with something, please don't disappear on me or what the role needs of you. I'll be placing my trust in you to help me make this site and community all the better, and the goal would be for me to stop paying more than high level attention to whatever you're helping with. If you can't dedicate time (this doesn't mean set hours or anything silly), that's not a big deal! Being on GP and having fun is all I want from people. If you're active on the general forums, playing/running games, adding items to the library, you're already doing a ton for the site. If you're telling your friends, people online, at your FLGS, or cons about GP, you're doing a ton for GP.

But if you do want to dedicate some energy to GP:

- Designers: If you have experience with graphic design (mainly web design), I'd love your feedback. No, I'm not asking for free work. If you have good ideas and can do work, I'll try to find money to pay you. Otherwise, as I continue to work on designs and build mocks, I needs feedback from experienced people who know both design and gaming to help me figure stuff out. If you'd like to join in the design of GP, I'd welcome new ideas/modifications. But this is more than just giving me an idea and bouncing; this would be an active conversation, taking the time it takes.

- Community Managers: I'd love to get people to help me grow the general community on GP, mainly through starting up new threads. This means thinking of interesting threads to get people involved, be it from general geek news, interesting Kickstarters, specific news from RPGs, board games, video games, etc. It'd be as much about coming up with threads as keeping threads appropriately alive and figuring out how often to post threads to keep the community going. Hopefully, this leads to organic community growth, and you'd mostly just be responsible for making sure people aren't getting rowdy.

- Guides Manager: GP has had a guides section for a while, and we keep talking about filling it. I know how I'd like the guides section organized, but I need help with people willing to take the lead on picking guides to work on, getting people moving to building guides, and making sure guides are structured in the most useful way possible. If we get guides going, I'll change it from a forum to a more wiki style section of the site.

- Programming help: GP is currently written in PHP/MySQL/MongoDB, and is moving to a Angular front end with a PHP/Mongo API. If you have experience with these languages, I could always use sounding boards, and there are projects you could help me develop or at least structure (like I haven't had time to learn RSS structures, and how they'd best work with GP, like a game feed, forum feeds for games, etc).

- Social Outreach: I try to put up tweets when a game is created and add a post to Facebook. I've also tried to do it for interesting threads, without much luck, and I haven't even tried to get onto stuff like Reddit yet. With a few other people, I wouldn't miss Facebook posts, and be able to get other social means moving. Eventually, I'll have code to auto tweet/FB, but I've never been a fan of automated social media; it doesn't feel real.
Jun 1, 2016 11:44 pm
I would like to help, but I'm no good with web design or programming. maybe I'll manage a community or something
Jun 1, 2016 11:50 pm
darthoingoboingo says:
I would like to help, but I'm no good with web design or programming. maybe I'll manage a community or something
As mentioned, what I have above I'm thinking of more as a "role"; I'd expect dedication if you sign up. If something like the community interests you but you're not sure you can always strive to start up threads/discussions on your own. As mentioned, I don't expect anyone to sign up to these; hopefully as the site grows, most of this will be organic anyway.
Jun 2, 2016 12:04 am
I could probably do some community management. My coding skills aren't all that great, and it's been a hot minute since I've done any kind of actual design...but I can definitely talk.
Last edited June 2, 2016 12:04 am
Jun 2, 2016 12:45 am
I don't have any coding experience, but I'd be happy to help out on the community management side.
Jun 2, 2016 12:54 am
Updated to mention guides
Jun 2, 2016 1:47 am
So first, I'd like to say that, I'd be happy to help work on guides and social outreach, as well as community manager. Although working on te guides and outreach is probably more of what I'd better suited for. I can't really help with coding or design.
Jun 2, 2016 1:49 am
when you say help with social media, what specifically do you mean?
Jun 2, 2016 1:59 am
I am a graphic designer, although I haven't really done anything web-related. Well, when my friend had his forum, I did offered some suggestions...

Edit: I do have a friend who's a webmestre. I know he could help greatly with referencing in order to come up on top with google searches...
Last edited June 2, 2016 2:01 am
Jun 2, 2016 2:00 am
darthoingoboingo says:
when you say help with social media, what specifically do you mean?
Someone to help me make sure the FB account always has new games posted up on it along with interesting threads, and increasing general awareness. Likewise, looking into alternate avenues like Reddit and what not.
Jun 2, 2016 2:02 am
hmm.. maybe we could get a subreddit made
Jun 2, 2016 2:20 am
darthoingoboingo says:
hmm.. maybe we could get a subreddit made
Maybe Voat as well for those who have chosen to boycott Reddit...
Jun 2, 2016 2:21 am
I might be able to help with some of the programming aspects. Familiar enough with ol' LAMP architecture and am in the process of pushing for an AngularJS solution for a project at work (mostly so I have an excuse to learn it).
Jun 2, 2016 2:27 am
I'd love to take a look at some programming! I'm doing some MEAN stack stuff personally and I'd love another project I can get passionate about!
Jun 2, 2016 2:33 am
I'm a programmer with some PHP experience, though my primary focus has been Perl with SQL thrown in. I am familiar with JavaScript, but I don't know Angular. Perhaps I can at least volunteer some time to consider algorithms.
Jun 2, 2016 2:37 am
CancerMan says:
I'm a programmer with some PHP experience, though my primary focus has been Perl with SQL thrown in. I am familiar with JavaScript, but I don't know Angular. Perhaps I can at least volunteer some time to consider algorithms.
I'm going to have to learn PHP myself some time early next year as I basically bought the domain name for my friend's aforementioned forum... Here might be a good place to start...
Jun 2, 2016 2:38 am
I have a lot of trouble letting go of my own work, so for code help, I think I'd be most comfortable starting off on subprojects for features (like the RSS feeds or maps?) and then moving on from there.
Jun 2, 2016 2:40 am
I can facebook and twadder
Jun 2, 2016 5:22 am
If be more than willing to work on guides and social media as well
Jun 2, 2016 6:59 am
Keleth says:
I have a lot of trouble letting go of my own work, so for code help, I think I'd be most comfortable starting off on subprojects for features (like the RSS feeds or maps?) and then moving on from there.
I completely understand. I was thinking more about code-proofing, whether it just be making sure the algorithm works, or coming up with pseudocode. However, designing a module that you can fit into the existing code base is something I might be able to tackle, if you don't mind the learning curve.
Jun 2, 2016 12:15 pm
While I'm probably not your button for it I noticed no Graphic Artists on the list. If you have a general idea for Guide Management that seems straight forward from a data management perspective so if no one is chomping at the bit for that one let me know and I'll assist there. For the Community side of things I would like to assist as well.
Jun 2, 2016 1:23 pm
Remnant says:
While I'm probably not your button for it I noticed no Graphic Artists on the list.
I'm not sure if you meant no one's responded for it, but one of the first items is looking for help with the graphic design of GP and various material I'm trying to create for it. As mentioned, I'm not asking someone to do free work (though if you want to actually help in that respect, I certainly won't say no).
Jun 2, 2016 1:26 pm
Everyone who's responded so far are easily the most active on GPs general forums, so I'm sure you've read this already, but I want to iterate one more time for clarity: what I'm looking for from this thread are volunteers. I can promise no glory or fame, though I'll do my best to set aside my ego to give you the credit you deserve for your work, heh. If you volunteer, I'll expect you to hold to your tasks, taken on as you can, but if you don't want to commit to anything, certain tasks like growing the community or guides, can be done by anyone, and I'll always post up for feedback on stuff like designs, so even if you want to give your graphic feedback but don't want to commit to it, you'll have the opportunity.
Jun 2, 2016 1:30 pm
For myself, I'm fine with being a volunteer. I have time available right now to work on these things, so I'm happy to do it while I'm able.
Jun 2, 2016 2:15 pm
Keleth says:
...I want to iterate one more time for clarity: what I'm looking for from this thread are volunteers.
Well, this rules out my friend then. I know he won't work for free...
Jun 2, 2016 3:09 pm
kalajel says:
Keleth says:
...I want to iterate one more time for clarity: what I'm looking for from this thread are volunteers.
Well, this rules out my friend then. I know he won't work for free...
Well, other than the design or code stuff, I can only pay as much as I make on GP right now, which is well into the red. For design work, I'll try to find money, though I can't afford to hire anyone right now. For code work, given the site is progressing, and given other costs, I can't allocate money to hire developers.
Jun 2, 2016 4:07 pm
I'll work for free (just to clarify) although I'm going to totally hack the die roller in my favor as compensation.
Jun 2, 2016 4:39 pm
szemely says:
I'll work for free (just to clarify) although I'm going to totally hack the die roller in my favor as compensation.
Comments like this are why GP needs a like button.
Jun 2, 2016 4:43 pm
szemely says:
I'll work for free (just to clarify) although I'm going to totally hack the die roller in my favor as compensation.
The first dice roller I ever built was for friends and I to play online, pre-roll20 days. I may have set it up so when one particular friend used it, it would randomly remove a certain amount from his roll, bottoming out at 1. He might have had dice that would or wouldn't be weighted against him.
Jun 2, 2016 4:46 pm
I could probably help with community management and I have done some social outreach for my University, particularly for the Mechanical Engineering Department, so I could probably contribute to those areas.
Jun 2, 2016 4:54 pm
I will pose for a "Men/Women of Gamer's Plane" calendar. I will even manscape for said calendar.

(I wish I had time man! I can barely find the time to run a game on here, so I don't want to say I will do something I can't do. You have my moral support!)
Jun 2, 2016 4:57 pm
DMKiado says:
(I wish I had time man! I can barely find the time to run a game on here, so I don't want to say I will do something I can't do. You have my moral support!)
That's plenty. I don't want or expect people to do more than they can. GP is a project I choose to take on myself; I won't put that on anyone else.
Jun 3, 2016 12:27 am
You know, if you watch a youtube vid about table top RPG and you spot a comment from someone who complains they have trouble finding a group, it might be a good opportunity to plug this site by replying to this comment...
Jun 3, 2016 12:32 am
I can help get the word out on social media... I'm just not very popular...

hey! what if someone did a youtube video tutorial of gamer's plane? it would help the noobs and it would also generate traffic...
Jun 3, 2016 1:48 am
Good idea. Perhaps make a Gamersplane channel on youtube?
Jun 3, 2016 2:00 am
kalajel says:
You know, if you watch a youtube vid about table top RPG and you spot a comment from someone who complains they have trouble finding a group, it might be a good opportunity to plug this site by replying to this comment...
I do that all the time on Facebook D&D groups :)
Jun 3, 2016 2:22 am
Naatkinson says:
I do that all the time on Facebook D&D groups :)
Oh, speaking of groups, I should advertise in some of the RPG Yahoo groups I'm part of...
Jun 3, 2016 2:27 am
You guys are all awesome. I'm gonna start small, and PM a few people soon. If I don't PM you, it's not because I don't want your help or don't like you or something. Maybe the middle one, I don't know.

I really appreciate the support you all have shown (and the support of those who haven't said anything in this thread). Thanks for helping me make GP so much better. There's a damn good reason I most often refer to GP as an Us instead of a Me.
Jun 3, 2016 11:29 am
I don't got time for the fancy stuff, but when I browse the LFG subreddit I'll forward any PbP players to this site.

//Handle
Jun 24, 2016 2:10 pm
Definitely still curious about programming tasks I might be able to take on. I'd love to try and fix the thing where you select your character in the Quick Reply but that setting doesn't carry over to the Advanced post (for example). :P
Jun 24, 2016 2:49 pm
I actually did find a fix for that. I was being stupid in my thinking. I'll have that one corrected soonish.
Dec 8, 2016 6:33 pm
I can hit Reddit, I'm a Reddit world 's oldest profession!
Dec 9, 2016 12:19 am
Have you thought about a Patreon or kickstarter?
Dec 9, 2016 12:35 am
lunitar says:
Have you thought about a Patreon or kickstarter?
I've realized income is actually the least of my concerns. I earn enough to cover monthly costs; beyond that, time is the most valuable resource I don't have.
Jan 16, 2017 6:56 am
I can't believe I missed this thread before! Community Management sounds like me! :-)
Jan 19, 2017 3:30 am
I'd like the opportunity to do some MEAN programming outside of book exercises and pet projects. I know you've mentioned the RSS thing. I can look into that or any other side projects you've had in mind.
Last edited January 19, 2017 3:30 am
Jan 31, 2017 12:24 am
I am going to be graduating, getting my B.A. in Multimedia Design and would love to get some real world experience. I know a little about a lot and can at the least help out in any and all of the categories. Just give me a task through PM or email and I would be happy to get it done.
Jan 31, 2017 1:45 pm
Thanks for volunteering DM_Apexwolf! Just because of experience (I've been working as a volunteer in online groups for a long time), I'd prefer if you'd select a position/topic that interests you the most, even if it's just for a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to people helping in different positions as it suits them.
Mar 5, 2017 11:26 pm
I am a professional developer with XP in Angular, PHP, Mongo, SQL, and others. I can help build anything you need to throw some developer time at. I am happy to sign a NDA, considering your sensitivity to the properity of your code base.

As a side note, I encourage you to open source your code base. The real product you have here isn't the code and the features built into the product (While nice, I don't feel it is crazy good ground breaking.), but rather the active community. Everything you can do to encourage that community is a benefit.
Mar 6, 2017 3:39 am
Constablebrew says:
I am a professional developer with XP in Angular, PHP, Mongo, SQL, and others. I can help build anything you need to throw some developer time at. I am happy to sign a NDA, considering your sensitivity to the properity of your code base.

As a side note, I encourage you to open source your code base. The real product you have here isn't the code and the features built into the product (While nice, I don't feel it is crazy good ground breaking.), but rather the active community. Everything you can do to encourage that community is a benefit.
Nah, nothing I've written is groundbreaking; rather it's how it's put together that matters. And of course, the community. I've actually avoided putting it public so long because... well, the code base is embarrassing.
Mar 6, 2017 7:58 am
Keleth says:
Nah, nothing I've written is groundbreaking; rather it's how it's put together that matters. And of course, the community. I've actually avoided putting it public so long because... well, the code base is embarrassing.
I get where that comes from, I've had small projects from time to time that I have thought of letting out in the free, but I've never got around to "making it presentable". Truth be told though, If it's code that actually does anything it's never going to be as elegant as that Fizz-Buzz clean code example you saw on that forum that time... Real software is complex, complexity and elegance doesn't go together well...

Also, the only ones who'd actually check out the code would be people that are either wanting to help make it better, or use it for something else. I think the worst response you'd see is that nobody checks it out. Who knows, maybe we can help you make it prettier (or, more lightly, add features/complexity like there is no tomorrow).
Mar 6, 2017 12:59 pm
Well, it's embarrassing not because it isn't clean... it is, though it follows two different style guides, as I've been evolving as a developer. Rather, it's embarrassing because all the old code is kinda poorly written, and while I'm making progress to a new, better system, it's not there yet. But sure, I'll make the repo public.
Mar 14, 2017 4:15 pm
I'm afraid I have no programming experience and while I consider myself a relatively good artist I don't have any experience with graphic design. However, I would be interested in being on top of coming up with interesting new threads and keeping those alive; I'm not sure what sort of thing you're looking for in that area and I'm nearly exclusively a D&D 5e guy, but if you're just looking for generally fun threads that pose questions and further the community I might be able to help with that!
I am a high school guy so I'm on the busy side, but if you give me a few more details on what you're looking for I'd definitely be interested in doing my part to make GP--as amazing as it is--better!
Jun 8, 2017 1:29 pm
Somehow this thread got unpinned, so a necro for those of you who may have missed it.
Apr 13, 2018 11:18 am
Hi,

I'm a full-stack web developer and by destiny or luck, I've just happened to land here a few days ago and I'm about to start mastering my first GP game.

First of all, congratulations for having this amazing site running. I came out with the idea of developing a website like this and found out it already existed, lol. I know it's important as a developer to hear the opinion of the real users, so the points where I'd focus most are:

In terms of UI design, the site feels good as is. Maybe I'd lower the height of the main navbar icon as it adds too much thickness to the page. When in low resolution, it eats up a nice chunk of screen. That is a minor change, though. Just redistribute the image a bit so it is more landscape-ish.

Then, in terms of UX design, there are some things here. As I enter with my phone at GP most of the times, I feel the need for a responsive design for mobile users inevitable. It's hard to navigate through the forums with a high-resolution web design sometimes, you know. Maybe I could find some time to create some mockups.

Still with UX, it feels like HTTP requests are pretty slowly. Not the site itself but the fetching actions of data models (i.e. /games/:id). We can discuss it somewhere if you are willing to.
Last edited April 13, 2018 11:33 am
Apr 13, 2018 1:29 pm
Semplax says:
Hi,

I'm a full-stack web developer and by destiny or luck, I've just happened to land here a few days ago and I'm about to start mastering my first GP game.

First of all, congratulations for having this amazing site running. I came out with the idea of developing a website like this and found out it already existed, lol. I know it's important as a developer to hear the opinion of the real users, so the points where I'd focus most are:
Welcome! Thanks for the feedback.
Semplax says:
In terms of UI design, the site feels good as is. Maybe I'd lower the height of the main navbar icon as it adds too much thickness to the page. When in low resolution, it eats up a nice chunk of screen. That is a minor change, though. Just redistribute the image a bit so it is more landscape-ish.
The redesign has a smaller header, so this is being addressed, heh.
Semplax says:
Then, in terms of UX design, there are some things here. As I enter with my phone at GP most of the times, I feel the need for a responsive design for mobile users inevitable. It's hard to navigate through the forums with a high-resolution web design sometimes, you know. Maybe I could find some time to create some mockups.
Responsive is something severely lacking, and something I'm working on for the redesign. Unfortunately, design is my weakest skill; I'm shocked people actually like the current design. There are some mocks in the Site Discussion forums of the upgrade, but I'd be glad to talk further with you on this.
Semplax says:
Still with UX, it feels like HTTP requests are pretty slowly. Not the site itself but the fetching actions of data models (i.e. /games/:id). We can discuss it somewhere if you are willing to.
Yah, this has to do with a lack of caching and with the forums data model not being the best for what it's doing. Again, happy to discuss.
May 11, 2018 3:13 pm
So, I would really like to be able to help out in the web side of things, but don't know much about it. For those of you who are familiar with web design stuff, what's a good place to start learning in general, and then the same thing for GP in particular?
May 11, 2018 3:36 pm
Naatkinson says:
So, I would really like to be able to help out in the web side of things, but don't know much about it. For those of you who are familiar with web design stuff, what's a good place to start learning in general, and then the same thing for GP in particular?
There are a few different approaches to this, and they depend on what you like to do. The two major routes are back end (the logic that drives the site) and front end (the visual site). Back end is more logic based programming, front end is more artistry. If you're not took een on going deep into programming, front end is lots of fun and can be practical even for your own use. For the below, I can look for some tutorials for you when I have some free time.

To start with front end dev, you need to learn HTML and CSS, the basic building blocks of a website. Plenty of good tutorials out there, but you have to be cautious, as because there's so much info, there's also a lot of outdated info. Unfortunately, even as someone in the field, it's hard to know which is which sometimes. However, even outdated info is useful.

If you're interested in GP specifically, or as a starting point, after HTML and CSS, you'll want to learn Javascript basics, and then move onto Angular, the framework that's driving the new GP site. The current site runs on a combination of PHP and AngularJS (an older version of Angular). If you want to help with the current site, you'll need to learn a lot more things, just because it's a complicated mess (thus my rewriting the site).

Because of how I learned programming (also from scratch, no classes/etc), I use pretty simple technologies, though I'm starting to get in more complex stuff. Nearly everything I use is well used online, popular, and thus has a lot of info and tutorials out there. If it's something you have a general interest in, Udemy has a number of good tutorials, and they're a cheap site ($10 for a tutorial, though that's the sale price, but the sale price comes up nearly every month; NEVER buy Udemy at full price :p). There are a ton of free tutorials if you're interested in learning but aren't sure about investing into it, which is perfectly fine, but you have to be more cautious to make sure you're learning up to date stuff.

tl;dr;
Current GP runs on:
- PHP 7.1
- AngularJS 1.5
- Some jQuery, though not much
- MySQL/MongoDB

New GP will run on:
- PHP 7.2, using the Slim Framework
- Angular (latest versions at all times)
- Unsure about DBs, either stay with MySQL/Mongo, or considering all Mongo (maybe PostgreSQL?)
- Redis
Jan 5, 2019 6:40 am
Naatkinson says:
So, I would really like to be able to help out in the web side of things, but don't know much about it. For those of you who are familiar with web design stuff, what's a good place to start learning in general, and then the same thing for GP in particular?
While not specific to the stack that GP runs on, freeCodeCamp is a pretty good resource for first starting out. As the name implies, it's 100% free, from start to finish. It's essentially an online coding bootcamp that you can take at whatever pace you choose. If you decide to follow through to the end, you'll pick up the skills necessary to get a job, should you decide to do so. In fact, the final project(s) involve working together with a team on a project for a non-profit organization, which gives you the all-important experience that you can put on your resume without having to first convince someone to hire you.

Full disclosure: I have done some work with freeCodeCamp on their curriculum in the past, so I'm a little biased :)
Jan 5, 2019 6:47 am
Keleth says:

- Programming help: ... Angular front end ...
I'm an Angular developer by trade. I have several years of experience with AngularJS (1.x), but some Angular (2+) experience as well.

Coding isn't just my job. It's also my hobby. Basically whenever I'm not gaming or hanging out with my family, I'm probably coding, so I'm definitely available to help out however I can.
Mar 1, 2019 7:14 am
I'm a web developer by profession, so I'd be happy to help out with whatever you need in that space.

As a suggestion, I'd really like the ability to combine different kinds of dice in a single roll, e.g. "2d6+1d4+3", which the die roller currently seems to spit the dummy at. I've made several variations of die rollers in the past, so I'd be happy to look at how the existing code could be tweaked to allow this.
Mar 1, 2019 1:01 pm
kadeton says:
I'm a web developer by profession, so I'd be happy to help out with whatever you need in that space.

As a suggestion, I'd really like the ability to combine different kinds of dice in a single roll, e.g. "2d6+1d4+3", which the die roller currently seems to spit the dummy at. I've made several variations of die rollers in the past, so I'd be happy to look at how the existing code could be tweaked to allow this.
The v2 version of the site actually has that! Well, sort of, I started it, and it will have that! Of course, feedback would be great, and I'm sure the current site could also be upgraded (just being me, hard to work on bug fixes, new/updated features, and the v2 all at the same time :( ). If you know PHP, you can check the repo out; it's public: https://github.com/rohitsodhia/gamersplane.v1
Mar 1, 2019 3:01 pm
Cheers, I'll check it out!
Mar 1, 2019 3:26 pm
Because my local server went kaput, I'm currently working on dockerizing the system, which will contain fixtures as well so others who want to help out can do so with relative ease.
Sep 27, 2019 4:36 pm
As it came up in another thread... bump! If you're at this thread for the first time, be sure to read the OP.
Sep 30, 2019 2:16 pm
Were you ever able to get the docker going?
Sep 30, 2019 6:22 pm
WarDomo says:
Were you ever able to get the docker going?
V1 is dockerized! I realize without a readme, it's not inherent in how to get the data up, but you should be able to run the docker compose and have it run.
Dec 30, 2019 7:33 pm
Programming Help: Long time software engineer experienced in both backend, middletier and frontend development currently conduct a class on python-qt so I teach as well. Can help with programming as a sounding board or even getting my fingers dirty ;)

Designers: Done some of this as well so might be able to give feedback if I had a better understanding of what/where you would like that feedback at and about

Guides Manager: I have written numerous guides over the years so could possible help here as well.

In the end I can donate only so much time but I am willing to lend a hand where I can.
May 28, 2020 6:24 pm
If a large img is placed in an ooc, the ooc's 20px left margin blows the image out the post's box.

Can I suggest adding this to your stylesheet?

#page_forum_thread .postContent .post .oocText img {
max-width: 664px;
}
Last edited May 28, 2020 6:25 pm
Jun 28, 2020 2:43 pm
Do you still need some help concerning the development of the platform ? I have been working on PHP 4/5.6/7 for the last two years and a half, MySQL for the database, and Angular 2, 4, and 6 for the last year and a half.

I'm not the best about front matters, CSS and I are ... still learning to know each other let say.
But for the PHP and SQL part, i'm good to go.

Oh and by the way, #TeamSlim4Ever (i tend to be allergic to Zend, or at least how it is used in my company).

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