Heist the Colours (OOC)

load previous
Feb 20, 2023 12:39 pm
Pedrop says:
... So dying for the description already ...
I don't tend to do infodumps, and I tend to give the players a lot of say in what the people they are playing with are like. So NPC descriptions tend to come along as details come up in play. We slowly learn what they are like and what they are good at. There was all sorts a 'assumptions of competence' in what I read of that AI generated text, assumptions that do not fit with Traveller's less-than-superhuman motif.
Pedrop says:
... let's assume the AI inspiration didn't ever happened ...
It was an interesting OOC experiment, but, indeed, is not part of the game.
Feb 20, 2023 12:50 pm
Pedrop says:
... Any good guidelines? That wouldn't require to read the whole book about it? ...
tl;dr
Well, reading lots of books about it is a good option. :)

Be open to learning, and play lots of games. Talk about it with your fellow players (GMs are players too). Adjust to the various games' different styles. Patience and Practice. Listen to TheGenerator.
Longer 'guide':
Pedrop says:
... I think it is very hard for me to figure it out how much I should be proactive? ...
It is a learning experience. Don't rush it, we are patient. Also don't get offended when we correct you. Ask questions and adjust for next time. Just like you did here.
Pedrop says:
... don't have any real experience with playing(maybe I still think about those games more from GM-wonna-be perspective?) ...
Switching from GM-mode to player-mode can be hard. Maybe (in this example) think about how you would feel as the GM if the players said: "GM says we have a problem of not having a truck... let's just say we have a truck. That solves that problem, right?".

GMs can make good players, often they know what sorts of things cause problems for GMs and know to avoid them. But they might also have not encountered a particular problem and fall right into it.

Do you see, from a GM perspective, the specific issue happening here? It is not a big deal, and does fit with my style (if the players don't like a scene/encounter we skip it), but we were, maybe, doing a thing here and you decided, on your own, to 'be proactive and skip it' to 'move things along' (after everyone else had been waiting for you to get back from the weekend (which we knew about from the start), but was also the reason things were not moving, and only mentioned now because the previous time you were over-proactive was also after a weekend away).

Having Bob come in and solve the lack of vehicle was a potential solution if people wanted it, but you stepped on the scene and killed it, without finding out if anyone wanted to play out that scene or do an in-game, by-the-rules solution. It bypassed all RP and mechanics.
Pedrop says:
... They say you should be proactive in PbP format ...
I don't know who 'they' are, but one should be proactive in all RPGs, we are not passive observers along for the ride. This is not a story-book provided by the GM.
Pedrop says:
... there is no time to establish every detail ...
True. However, that also means that details that have been established --in this case, that getting a truck would not be easy-- are kinda important --in a Checkovian way-- honour them.
Pedrop says:
... You should make your rolls in advance ...
That depends very much on the rules of the game. That sounds like DnD advice. We are not playing DnD.

How would you roll in advance here? What would you roll? We first need the fiction to be able to work out what to roll. Do you see how your haggling with Bob over the price could not have happened with a roll-first mentality? We first needed the fiction of what you were doing so we can work out the applicable Skills, then we needed to set the Difficulty, only then can you roll.

Fiction First.
Pedrop says:
... to make game faster ...
Rolling can slow a game down, but rolling wrong breaks the game and that slows it down even more... sometimes to a complete halt. To speed things up I prefer to have as little rolling as possible, but rolling is fun, and an important part of the game, so there has to be some.

A situation where the players do not roll can place too much power in the hands of the GM. The dice dictate the outcome/cost/consequence, and without dice the GM just decides, and that can feel unfair. "We were warned to not go in, but we walk in anyway.", "Rocks fall, you die!" does not feel at all good. "...we walk in, rolling to be careful and avoid the deadly trap... and get a 1.", "Rocks fall, you die." is a very different feeling of blame, that is clearly not the GM's fault, it was the dice.

The dice help everyone agree on how bad things are. It also makes a difference who rolled the dice: Players want to feel 'in control of their own characters', so even having the 'GM roll for them to speed things up' feels wrong. Same dice, same odds, but different feeling.
TheGenerator says:
... maybe a driving or mechanic roll would be something that can still make the van a challenge? ...
Rolling now, after we have seen that he has a van, and that he got it to your location, is sorta pointless. The problem is known to be solved, what would the interesting consequences be?
Pedrop says:
... the GM can discard them if they are not needed ...
That, again, very much depends on the game and its rules. In something like PbtA where 'nothing never happens' every dice roll must be acknowledged (by the rules), some even provide XP and you don't want to take that away from the player after they have got exited about it.

I was recently dragged into a discussion on GP Discord about MotW and XP on a miss, and people were complaining that some players 'roll weak stats in safe situations' to get free XP. Which I had not encountered in my games, at least not for very long. Firstly I don't allow players to roll before they have been asked to --so no 'rolling without risk'-- and secondly, in most PbtA the rolls/Moves only trigger when there is danger. I regularly have players ask "Can I roll Read a Person'" and I point them to the text of the move, telling them that "the situation did not seem 'charged' but if you roll --by the rules-- it is, (maybe they will notice you studying them and get upset that 'you don't trust them'?)". After the first time they 'die' from a failed roll in a 'safe' situation they stop that cheating, but at least they got the XP.

Look to the game rules for that. I don't discard rolls, same way I don't encourage post-and-then-edit. Everything matters.
Feb 20, 2023 1:03 pm
vagueGM says:
Listen to TheGenerator.
My lawyer informs me to add the following disclaimer:
TheGenerator is in no way liable for action taken as a result of their advice.
:P
Feb 20, 2023 1:04 pm
Tough. It is generally good advice, I will continue to recommend listening to it. :)
Feb 20, 2023 7:32 pm
XP is overrated. I have been playing a different game here on gamersplane for a year now (forgot to celebrate) and have earned 0 XP. Still like Playing though!
The GM is a real cheapskate when it comes to XP... If only I could remember his name, my memory's a bit vague at the moment.

😁😘
Feb 20, 2023 7:57 pm
Airshark says:
... XP is overrated. ...
True.
Airshark says:
... The GM is a real cheapskate ...
True.
Airshark says:
... have earned 0 XP. Still like Playing though! ...
Really? Have you checked your coin purses? Someone (whose name we are unsure of) did give you a whole bag-o-XP.
Feb 20, 2023 10:06 pm
Airshark says:
[ +- ] XP is overrated
🤭
Feb 20, 2023 11:42 pm
TheGenerator says:
Pedrop says:
Any good guidelines? That wouldn't require to read the whole book about it? :)
I usually think this way:
Good ones! Thanks a lot!
vagueGM says:
Pedrop says:
... Any good guidelines? That wouldn't require to read the whole book about it? ...
tl;dr
Well, reading lots of books about it is a good option. :)

Be open to learning, and play lots of games. Talk about it with your fellow players (GMs are players too). Adjust to the various games' different styles. Patience and Practice. Listen to TheGenerator.
Reading a book is always a good option! :) But unfortunately I have a pile of those still in my queue for reading... and it's getting bigger + they are mostly about more important subjects to me. So: thank you both even more for taking the time and explaining/providing your opinions on this to me in more concise way! I will read those carefully.
Quote:
Pedrop says:
... I think it is very hard for me to figure it out how much I should be proactive? ...
It is a learning experience. Don't rush it, we are patient. Also don't get offended when we correct you. Ask questions and adjust for next time. Just like you did here.
So I'm able to do something in the right way after all - good start;)
Quote:
...how you would feel as the GM if the players said...
Yes, it's always good to put yourself in the position of others. I get this remark:)
Quote:
Do you see, from a GM perspective, the specific issue happening here?
Yes, now I see it how you see it. But it was based on the incentive - as I understood it - that our main focus is not the packing the things, but the meeting with the hacking software dealer. Apparently I understood it wrong? But it all come out as me deciding that "we" don't want to deal with the problem of lack of transport. I didn't noticed it and I agree that was bad of me. BUT: it wasn't my intention. Due my lack of experience it seemed not so important. And I felt that focus was somewhere else - the dealer meeting - and abby flat was only a place to gather. And I still think it could be read that way... :/ But I will be more cautious in the future.

The weekend thing - I was telling about it from the very beginning and thought it won't be a problem. If it IS a problem and I'm slowing everyone down, maybe we should plan me leaving the game(could be in some longer period of time, not to break the game even more)? Maybe I'm not experienced enough for you guys? I'm starting to wonder if I'm good fit for this group. Don't want to spoil the fun for you. And I don't have problem with someone else playing my PC - better for Raf to live some more... :)
Quote:
but you stepped on the scene and killed it
Sounds really bad:/ Again: I only have one explanation of me - thought the focus is somewhere else + Lack of experience.
Quote:
True. However, that also means that details that have been established --in this case, that getting a truck would not be easy-- are kinda important --in a Checkovian way-- honour them.
Yes, now I see it.
Quote:

Pedrop says:
... You should make your rolls in advance ...
That depends very much on the rules of the game. That sounds like DnD advice. We are not playing DnD.

How would you roll in advance here? What would you roll? We first need the fiction to be able to work out what to roll. Do you see how your haggling with Bob over the price could not have happened with a roll-first mentality? We first needed the fiction of what you were doing so we can work out the applicable Skills, then we needed to set the Difficulty, only then can you roll.
I have never played DnD - somehow never was interested, maybe only in OSR approach.

By "roll in advance" I meant "in general" and seen many people here doing it on GP:
- in example: you describe - in fiction - that you look at some device and want to get to know something, and you add the roll (technical) to the same post, other example would be about looking for something - perception - in cases when the roll is almost obvious,
- so you don't wait for the GM to tell you that you should roll for this( post #1), you roll ( in post #2) and then GM write response (post #3)... instead you attach optional roll in the "post #0" - "just in case" you were right and GM can answer in next one respecting or not the roll - it makes things faster,
Quote:
Fiction First.
Yes. Always:)
Pedrop says:
...but rolling is fun...
It is:)
TheGenerator says:

Pedrop says:
... the GM can discard them if they are not needed ...
That, again, very much depends on the game and its rules. In something like PbtA where 'nothing never happens' every dice roll must be acknowledged (by the rules), some even provide XP and you don't want to take that away from the player after they have got exited about it.

I was recently dragged into a discussion on GP Discord about MotW and XP on a miss, and people were complaining that some players 'roll weak stats in safe situations' to get free XP. Which I had not encountered in my games, at least not for very long. Firstly I don't allow players to roll before they have been asked to --so no 'rolling without risk'-- and secondly, in most PbtA the rolls/Moves only trigger when there is danger. I regularly have players ask "Can I roll Read a Person'" and I point them to the text of the move, telling them that "the situation did not seem 'charged' but if you roll --by the rules-- it is, (maybe they will notice you studying them and get upset that 'you don't trust them'?)". After the first time they 'die' from a failed roll in a 'safe' situation they stop that cheating, but at least they got the XP.

Look to the game rules for that. I don't discard rolls, same way I don't encourage post-and-then-edit. Everything matters.
Very interesting remarks!

So I should never roll in advance in this game? Let's say:
- we encounter some cache with few drones in it.
- in my RP I would write: "Raf is checking what kind of drones are those."
- normally I would add a Remote Ops.(EDU) roll - seems obvious for me for this simple situation? And if you don't like/need it can simply ignore it?
- or should I wait for you to tell me to do so? So the situation will be resolved only in next 2 posts?
Feb 21, 2023 12:13 am
Pedrop says:
... The weekend thing ...
The weekend thing is not a problem, we knew about it going in. I only mentioned it because both times you suddenly pushed to 'speed things up' was after a weekend wait.
Pedrop says:
... I'm starting to wonder if I'm good fit for this group. ...
That is up to you. We are happy to keep you around if you are happy to keep learning. But if our style is not working for you, then we will also understand if you want to leave, at any time.
Pedrop says:
... someone else playing my PC ...
I don't do that. If you leave you take you PC with you. They are your PC.
Pedrop says:
... roll (technical) ... perception ... cases when the roll is almost obvious ... it makes things faster ... "just in case" you were right ...
If you are really confident you will be rolling the right thing, and that a roll would have been called for, and that you know the Difficulty of that roll, then it might speed things up a bit. It you get it wrong then it definitely will slow things down a whole lot.

Some games have simple things like 'Perception', and it is obvious that if roll would be needed it would be that. But, even in those games, if you roll Perception and miss, but the GM was going to give you the information for free, now they can not and you have to 'not notice something'. The rolls matter, and should not be ignored.
Pedrop says:
... So I should never roll in advance in this game? ...
Roll what Skill? With which Characteristic? Against what Difficulty? If you roll and get a 7, it is too late to discuss if the DM was lower than the standard 8 and you will fail where you would otherwise have succeeded, if you get a 9 it makes it very hard for the GM to say "sorry, you needed a 10", even if they don't notice it, they are more inclined to say it was not that hard. Out of fairness to everyone, Difficulty is a discussion that needs to happen before the dice results are known.
Pedrop says:
... if you don't like/need it can simply ignore it? ...
If you roll it, it happened, and is now a concrete part of the game. Ignoring a roll would require there to be significant extenuating circumstances (the type that likely render the whole post invalid).

Once the dice come out we are committed.
Feb 21, 2023 12:36 am
Ok, understood. Probably this roll in advance mainly works in PbtA games, where the Target Numbers/Difficulty and your Mod are already known in advance. Or maybe Year Zero Engine when you usually don't use difficulty so much.

But here we have this Difficulty provided by GM... so that makes sense and I see what you are telling me:)

In the same time I'm in one of the Cyberpunk RED(its STAT+d10 ruleset vs TN) games when all the players usually roll with their posts - and GM never provide any Target Number/Difficulty, he just interprets the rolls. But it is quite different style of game I must say. Interesting how many approaches there are:)

Ok. I will not roll in advance.
vagueGM says:

Pedrop says:
... I'm starting to wonder if I'm good fit for this group. ...
That is up to you. We are happy to keep you around if you are happy to keep learning. But if our style is not working for you, then we will also understand if you want to leave, at any time.

I wouldn't like to leave this game... as currently this is the most exciting game for me from all I play. Probably because of the completeness and logic of Traveller system, our world + characters building and this noir-hard-science-fiction feel with potential of discovering new worlds:) And your attention to details - Vague - that is very "my way" too - if I would have more time at least.

But, yet again it can be me who spoil the fun for others and I wouldn't want it to stay that way... ?
Feb 21, 2023 12:58 am
Pedrop says:
... roll in advance mainly works in PbtA games ...
Definitely not a good fit for PbtA games, and is actually against the rules in PbtA and causes all sorts of problems. The players (including and mainly the GM) have the job of watching for Move Triggers, when one comes up the rules say to call it out and talk about it.
Apocalypse World 2e page 10 says:
You don’t ask in order to give the player a chance to decline to roll, you ask in order to give the player a chance to revise her character’s action if she really didn’t mean to make the move.
It is in the rules that you talk about it first.

On a 6-, by the rules, the GM has to make a GM Move, it is not optional. So tossing around rolls that are not called for means more GM Moves, and that is 'bad' for the characters.
Pedrop says:
... and GM never provide any Target Number/Difficulty ...
Sure. But providing such is the rule, and we are still playing by the rules here. We might house-rule it later if we decide it is a problem (often called for in PbP), but we will start with the rules as written till we know them better. I don't recommend house-ruling games till after they have been played, else things that should fit together don't and it can be hard to tell why. House-rules also often turn all games into the main game the GM plays, trying the actual rules first give them a chance to stand on their own.
Pedrop says:
... it can be me who spoil the fun for others and I wouldn't want it to stay that way ...
How about: We will tell you if it is a problem? We have had two 'problems' and we have dealt with them by talking about it, I don't foresee it getting worse.
Feb 21, 2023 1:08 am
vagueGM says:

How about: We will tell you if it is a problem? We have had two 'problems' and we have dealt with them by talking about it, I don't foresee it getting worse.
I'm good with it:)
Feb 21, 2023 8:51 am
WhtKnt says:
OOC:
Yeah, I recognized that van even before I read the text.
So we are dangerously getting close to be friends ;)
Feb 21, 2023 1:06 pm
vagueGM says:
Bob is listening carefully to everything being said, though trying not to make it obvious.
Wow! Very good one! :) Perfect timing. Considering how Raf is visibly overly enthusiastic about getting into action...

Player has cold feeling travelling down his spine :)
Feb 22, 2023 2:10 am
Is Abby paying for the meds too? Then it's 9600/5 =1920 else 9600/4=2400
Feb 22, 2023 2:27 am
Airshark says:
Is Abby paying for the meds too? Then it's 9600/5 =1920 else 9600/4=2400
She will pay.

You may have to talk her into paying for anything she does not use, but it should not be hard to convince her that they will be needed.

You are welcome to neglect to mention the discount you got.
Feb 22, 2023 2:29 am
Speaking of money: Have we had Bob load any Trade Goods onto his Gig? Possibly packaged as 'parts'.

Think about it as we play. If we want to engage in some Trade (Speculative or otherwise) to help offset the costs, we can do so.
Feb 22, 2023 2:31 am
I will mention it later when the action is slowing down.
Feb 22, 2023 2:32 am
Airshark says:
I will mention it later when the action is slowing down.
Yeah. It will get even easier to get money out of everyone after something medical has happened and the need for your stuff/suggestions has been proven.
Feb 22, 2023 2:58 am
Since they are 'traders' they will understand how the market works. Demand vs supply and such 😬
load next

You do not have permission to post in this thread.