Winter our discontent (OOC)

That seems appropriate, though I am not sure if it qualifies for a roll, what (reasonable) counter-offer could she give on a 7-9†, and what does it actually cost you? Isn't this something you were going to do anyway (not that that sort of logic should factor into a promise of shopping as manipulation:).

We can bring in 'costs' during the shopping, you are supposed to be dealing with other stuff that will complicate your life if neglected.

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• † We don't want go with the obvious. That she wants to be included in what you are doing with your friends today, as that is a tad disruptive and revealing, right? Another, more playable counter-offer would be that she demands it be 'all about her', but Wentworth has work for you while you are at it?

Yes, Persephone likely would have taken her shopping anyway.

So, on a 7-9, perhaps Persephone takes her shopping even when Wentworth is demanding she do something else, resulting in conflict with the boss. Alternatively, Persephone has to take her shopping and won't get time for that debrief on there supernatural, which means Persephone will still be ignorant of things the next time she has a run in with the supernatural.

I'll admit I usually don't consider what I might offer on a 7-9 until I roll it! But I see now that your approach is superior --to have something in mind for each possible outcome before rolling, so that the roll is meaningful and effective.

The problem is if there are no sensible options then the roll is not valid. You can't roll if all the options are not viable, if you can't succeed, you can't roll, of you can't fail, don't roll, if nothing makes sense for a 7-9 then that Move is probably not the right one.
Well, it isn't 'my approach'. It is the rules of PbtA. You have to know (even if only roughly) what the outcomes mean and what to expect (in general terms), if you, the player, don't agree to every possible outcome, then you need to try something different and can't roll that move.
That just seems unfun, which is why I was shying away from that.
Ya. So we will factor that in to how much this mollifies her. Even on an 11.
She will still need you to sweeten the pot, and I am thinking the demand that it be all about her with that conflicting with Wentworth's work fits best, but, since you got an 11 [ref], Wentworth won't be all that pushy about when you need to ... what's your other job type? Oh, yeah, ... Broker a Contract. You can try to arrange that for after (but we will only know for sure when dice happen, and dice will only happen at that inflection point:).

Hmmm, I'm not so sure that's universally true. I have often played PbtA games wherein the roll occurs and the GM comes up with "a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice" (that's from Apocalypse World). Nowhere does it say those options must be established before the roll. Similarly, in Monsterhearts, the Keep Your Cool move says: "On a 7-9, the MC will tell you how your actions would leave you vulnerable, and you can choose to back down or go through with it." I have often played MH, and I've often had this choice only presented after the roll.

So I understand your point, but I am just not sure I agree that 'it's the rules of PbtA.'

Now, I *do* agree that all of the results need to be possible. Moves can only be made when there is a real chance of success or failure. And Yes, you are absolutely right, I can't offer something to an NPC as a part of a move like Persuade an NPC that I was gonna give them already. I must sweeten the pot; you are totally right about that. But... the negative consequences of the roll? I don't see why I have to know that in advance. There are any number of ways she could react negatively.

Oh, and I apologize if I am pushing back here--for one, I find this discussion super interesting from an abstract game design perspective (hi, game designer here), but two, because I am authentically curious if I have been misconstruing my PbtA mechanics!
This all sounds good to me! I will offer her like a full day of shopping, pampering, and treats--right when Wentworth wants me to do something.

No worries at all. Always happy to chat about game design. And my words were a little crude.
Only if it caused problems.
I may have been overstating it a bit. AW and MH are not as explicit as something like Blades in the Dark, for instance, which came later. This was always part of how Vincent runs games. Though I haven't played with Avery she does much the same from what I have seen, but remember that Montershearts is inherently more transgression and intends to put players in situations where their characters feel out of control.

Even MH, though, says (on page 92) about MC Reactions that they need to feel "like a natural response to what was just said or a natural consequence of what was just done." For this to work, everyone needs to be on the same page before they happen. Players should not be unpleasantly surprised by the MC Reaction... Surprise is good, but "I did not think that was going to happen" is mostly a bad thing, their reaction should more along the lines of: "Wellp, that was bound to happen when I tried that."

The more a group plays together the less this comes up.
Yes, that is part of the Keep Your Cool Move. On a 7-9 you get the choice to not keep your cool and allow the original bad to happen, or to take the bargain the GM offered and avoid the thing that made you roll. This is a standard Tell them the possible consequences and ask codified in the Move text.

I would expect the player to understand that their roll could, even on a 7-9, result in them being presented with a worse outcome than what they were trying to avoid, knowing this before they roll is part of the rules.
I did, deliberately, add in weasel words like 'in general terms' because you don't need to know what will happen, but you need to be cognisant of the sorts of things that could happen. The player should never be confused about the fact that their choice to roll could make the situation much worse. "GM: 'If you roll to Read a Person it will turn this peaceful conversation (even though you are having a disagreement) into a Charged Situation, because that is part of the Move's trigger. Are you sure you want to roll?' Player: 'No! I thought we were just talking here.'" This reminds the player about the mechanics of their roll and that nothing never happens.

As AW says on page 10:
"You don’t ask in order to give the player a chance to decline to roll, you ask in order to give the player a chance to revise her character’s action if she really didn’t mean to make the move".

I just wanted you to be aware of what a roll of Persuade could lead to, and that what you offered would not get you much of a return. Your choice to roll turned a situation where the worst that could happen was a sulky sister into a situation where the GM makes a Move, and that is a big deal. You chose to turn a sure thing into a gamble, for not much reward. :)

Gotcha!! I think I had overlooked those weasel words, and I was reading you as speaking more in absolutes. I actually agree with you here! Or, maybe more accurately, you’ve helped me to refine some vagueness I had in my thinking, if that makes sense. And I always appreciate that! I am a philosophy professor IRL, after all; so that’s kinda my jam.

And yes, invoking a move in a situation in which it isn’t necessary does invite drama. But I like that! I’m not here to see my character live happily ever after; that’s boring, unless it is earned by walking through chaos and ruin first. And yeah, sometimes I stir the pot a bit by making suboptimal decisions, just to see what happens. But I see your point here; it was a minor inconvenience and I responded with invoking a move, which is like using a baseball bat to swat a fly.

Ok! I’m happy to let things stand IC as they are but I’ll be more mindful of this stuff going forward. Or I’ll try to at least! Occasionally, I might want to make things more difficult for poor Persephone, just to see what happens! :)

Even our characters do that sometimes. :)

We don't need Moves and dice to 'just see what happens', we can do things that are bound to cause ripples and just have them happen. :)

haha that’s fair! Though sometimes it’s fun to see what the dice decide; I think of them like another player at the table, contributing to the story. But yeah, I can do just fine sowing chaos without them, too!

True, though PbtA Moves are often not the most suited for use as Oracles, there are plenty of random tables that can be brought in for that sort of thing. If the Move fits, though, using them can add extra uncertainty to a scene that would be predictable otherwise.

I am still thinking about running a game using nothing but Mythic GM Emulator as the ruleset. Not the GM emulator part, the resolution rules (Chaos Chart and Dice). It could be interesting, though I am not sure it divorces from the emulator part well enough, I need to give it more thought. I know I never found Mythic (the RPG) worth it.

hmm! I don’t know these. I think I have a deep dive to look forward to later today!

Incidentally, I just learned about FKR and am fascinated. I’m gathering you’re a fan as well?

Mythic GM Emulator is a tool for playing without a GM, either as a group or solo. I never used anything other then the Chaos Chart (and it may well be called the Fate Chart and Chaos Number, or something, it has been a while) from 1e, but I was very impressed with my single read-through of Second Edition (though, ironically, I think I preferred the Fate Chart from 1e?).

Mythic was a game by the same author, but I don't recall much about it.
I am not sure I advocate for real FKR, at least, not for 'games with strangers'. Kriegsspiel (or War Gaming) was a practice for soldiers, when they said "we all know what is realistic and what makes sense, we don't need written rules" that was true, they were professionals. I have seen rules-lite games fall apart way too often when opinions differ as to what is 'reasonable' in a situation and it devolves to bickering and players vs GM.

With people who all agree about how things work, or are willing to sit down and lay down ground rules, FKR is the ultimate RP, but, outside that, it is rather unpredictable.

I just want the rules to get out of the way and let me play... But I also want the rules to stop the other peoples from having opinions different to mine! A rulebook helps to get everyone on the same page.

Agreed.

Agreed as well!

Agreed.

Where to next? There was talk of Hitting the Streets for information to help Persephone. Is that our next scene? Who all's going along? We can assume Circe wants to be part of what's happening, but can be persuaded (off screen) to rest her hurting body.

• If that is what we are doing: Who do you go to (first).
  • Set the scene.

Remember that Hit the Streets Marks Circles for Advancement, so think about who does which Circle and in what order.
We can talk about strategies. Unfortunately this is part of the game, so don't feel bad about this metagaming. (If we can arrange it such that Benji hits Mortalis first (with any Move that counts) we are mostly clear to do any order. Both Emma and Persephone (as is not unusual) already have their strong Circle Marked, though Emma is pretty flat (in this regard:) and Persephone still needs to Mark Wild on her sheet).

Yes. Anyone who rolled for Zhiyu should do Mark Power.

(If Benji had gone with the initial plan of Hitting the Streets to find Teddy a snack he could have Marked Mortalis, Advanced, and then Marked Night (again) for fulfilling the Debt (order can matter and this interpretation is valid:) and now Power and been halfway to another Advance. I don't mind the metagaming (it is required by the rules) but do sometimes find the need to go to a certain Circle before any more advancement progress can be made a little frustrating. I was hoping they would smooth this aspect out between 1 and 2, it sometimes feels more like a gating mechanism than an advancement mechanism.)

Second Advancement! :) You are getting Corrupt too!
If we are splitting up, then sure. If we want to stay together for a bit and then do separate scenes in the afternoon, that may run smoother than trying to end our separate scene at the same time. It is up to the group.